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Author Topic: After the Landing  (Read 288662 times)

Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #360 on: July 23, 2013, 10:29:09 PM »

... now he has Earhart telling the Coast Guard her backup plan was Gardner island, which they ignored of course.
Is this complete hogwash or what? I can find no reference to anywhere "in writing and before the flight" that Earhart
ever mentioned the name Gardner.

That's my impression, too.

Randy Jacobson summarizes the communications made in preparation for the second attempt.  The summary is based on the Jacobson Databases of all of the radio traffic that he could find related to the case.  There isn't a syllable that I can remember about any plan B, let alone one specifying Gardner Island.

I've heard it said that Doris Rich said that Gore Vidal said that Amelia said she would turn back to the Gilberts if the could not find Howland.  No one has been able to substantiate Rich's claim so far. 
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #361 on: July 24, 2013, 10:19:26 AM »

Lloyd Manley's ramblings have come in for scathing criticism in postings that are too colorful to post on this forum.  Let it suffice to say that Mr. Manley is not credible.  Let's move on.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #362 on: July 24, 2013, 10:26:51 AM »

The Return-to-the-Gilberts (aka Plan B) has been debated ad nauseum.  Whether or not Earhart ever mentioned it as an alternative, it would be utterly unworkable; there is no evidence that she tried it; and there is primary source evidence (Itasca radio log: "We are on the line....") that she did something else.  Unless someone has new evidence to support that hypothesis, I don't think we need to spend time flogging that dead horse.
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Christine Schulte

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #363 on: July 24, 2013, 02:18:40 PM »

I think that the remark about returning to the Gilberts (if AE really made such a remark - as has been noticed before, a third-hand account isn't really satusfactory evidence at all) should be considered in the light of how AE is known to have handled the risks involved in her previous flights. Her attitude seems to have been "all or nothing", and she never seems to have made any serious contingency planning. When she felt that her planes were too heavy, safety equipment was the first thing she discarded. Even on her transatlantic flight in 1932, she didn't carry a life raft. When friends asked her how she felt about the risks, she usually laughed them off. 
Also, she doesn't seem to have been very knowledgeable about the routes she flew. In 1932, she had someone else do the detailed planning for her, and stuck to a compass heading because she felt a great circle route was too difficult to handle. She seems to not really have known where she was when she landed. When she had a navigator with her, she seems to have been content to fly whatever course he set.
So even if she actually told Gore Vidal she'd head back to the Gilberts, I think  it's fair to assume she hadn't really thought it through.
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Gloria Walker Burger

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #364 on: July 24, 2013, 02:29:12 PM »

Your turn to put it all together and write your own scenario. Try to keep it on topic, it's all theory and we are not trying to argue points or tear ideas apart. If you have a scenario of what happened after the last known radio call lets see it!

This thread was originally for fun to see forum members' ideas of their own scenario of what happened to Amelia and Fred--without "tearing ideas apart".

What's your scenario?
Gloria
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Brano Lacika

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #365 on: July 24, 2013, 02:31:45 PM »

I think that the remark about returning to the Gilberts (if AE really made such a remark - as has been noticed before, a third-hand account isn't really satusfactory evidence at all) should be considered in the light of how AE is known to have handled the risks involved in her previous flights. Her attitude seems to have been "all or nothing", and she never seems to have made any serious contingency planning. When she felt that her planes were too heavy, safety equipment was the first thing she discarded. Even on her transatlantic flight in 1932, she didn't carry a life raft. When friends asked her how she felt about the risks, she usually laughed them off. 
Also, she doesn't seem to have been very knowledgeable about the routes she flew. In 1932, she had someone else do the detailed planning for her, and stuck to a compass heading because she felt a great circle route was too difficult to handle. She seems to not really have known where she was when she landed. When she had a navigator with her, she seems to have been content to fly whatever course he set.
So even if she actually told Gore Vidal she'd head back to the Gilberts, I think  it's fair to assume she hadn't really thought it
through.

The question is also, if she would really interested in having the backup plan, what the best one could be. Gilbertese islands does not sound verz promising... if they could not find the howland it means, they do not know their position. Flying back from the unknown position does not sound very reasonably and flying upright (vertically) towards the chain of islands is just reallz only the count upon the good luck. Achieving the Howland LOP and the flying alongwith to south is much more promising.
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David Deusenberry

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #366 on: August 02, 2013, 01:09:19 PM »

Just a thought.
Ok, so Amelia was an alright pilot but Fred was a very good navigator. I’m positive he KNEW where they were. So why would they fly 400 miles past their target? Yes, I do believe they were on Gardener Island and that they died there. My question is why. One possible answer. Our government asks them to. “Hey, Gardner is bigger and has a great place to land. Once you are “lost” we will launch a search that will give us an opportunity to photograph the Japanese progress on neighboring islands and once we are finished we will “find” you and bring fuel so you can be on your way.” But something goes terribly wrong, an unusually high tide washes the Electra off the beach. When the rescue plane flies over a week or so later the Electra isn’t there. “OH CRAP! Let’s pull out and pretend this whole thing never happened.”
Any thoughts?
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #367 on: August 02, 2013, 01:25:43 PM »

Ghost

Interesting. I don't believe the US military needed to be secretive about looking at all of these islands. Sending a major aircraft carrier to the area to search for her I do not believe required formal permission from any other country.  The fact that a runway was built on Howland for AE and never ever used was a colossal waste of money but if the US wanted a presence in the area they would have built it for AE but used it during the war. 

I think intentionally getting lost is interesting but I also believe AE would have rebelled at "getting lost" as it would be a mark on her professional reputation. She would have come up with something more creative I'm sure.  All IMHO.
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Matt Revington

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #368 on: August 02, 2013, 01:31:29 PM »

While this is meant to be a speculative thread there are many dubious propositions in your post.

As far as I know there was no Japanese activity in or around the Phoenix group at that time so there was no reason to send AE and FN there.  There seemed to some competition between the British and Americans for the Phoenix group but I don't think there were any official restrictions to traveling there so sending them there in secretive manner does not make any sense to me .  Any Japanese activity was hundreds or thousands of miles to the northwest in the Gilberts or Marshalls.  It is extremely doubtful given the quality of maps available that the US government or anyone else was aware that there was a good strip of reef to land the Electra on at Gardner.  etc
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 02:15:52 PM by Matt Revington »
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Stacy Galloway

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #369 on: August 02, 2013, 01:39:57 PM »

Just a thought.
Ok, so Amelia was an alright pilot but Fred was a very good navigator. I’m positive he KNEW where they were. So why would they fly 400 miles past their target? Yes, I do believe they were on Gardener Island and that they died there. My question is why. One possible answer. Our government asks them to. “Hey, Gardner is bigger and has a great place to land. Once you are “lost” we will launch a search that will give us an opportunity to photograph the Japanese progress on neighboring islands and once we are finished we will “find” you and bring fuel so you can be on your way.” But something goes terribly wrong, an unusually high tide washes the Electra off the beach. When the rescue plane flies over a week or so later the Electra isn’t there. “OH CRAP! Let’s pull out and pretend this whole thing never happened.”
Any thoughts?

I believe if that were the case, then the government would not only do a quick flyover, but would also send a bunch of folks to the island to search for her on foot. They would not lose track of her and then not a do a full fledged search to find her.

But I do not believe this is a government conspiracy gone wrong. Sometimes things happen for no understandable reason- or at least no reason that we currently understand. The answers may or may not come, but if they do, I doubt a government cover-up is behind this disappearance.

LTM~ Who says accidents happen,
Stacy
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Bruce Thomas

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #370 on: August 02, 2013, 02:15:46 PM »

LTM,

Bruce
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Chris Johnson

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #371 on: August 02, 2013, 02:22:50 PM »

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David Deusenberry

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #372 on: August 06, 2013, 09:09:02 AM »

This scenario is purely fiction, loosely based on other theories that she was asked to fly off course and spy on Japanese movements in the area.
So here we go. LOL
She refused to become a spy but agreed to become “lost” to help her country out and let them do the spying.
A month or so before her arrival at Gardner the Coast Guard stops and sets up a water catchment device. (That has been found but is presumed from the colonial era.) 
They land on the beach safely and start making distress calls with a dual purpose. One to attract worldwide attention so the “spy mission” could be carried out in secret and the other to let the coast guard know she had arrived on Gardner.
They make their way to the 7 site near the water source and set up camp. Everything is going according to plan until a few days later when an unexpected high tide comes in and washes the Electra into deeper water. At this time she is upset about not finishing her flight but not yet panicked because they are going to be “found” soon. It’s not for several more days that they begin to panic. Without much rain their water source is running low and becomes contaminated from stagnation. Fred gets ill from drinking the water and Amelia realizes what caused it and empties a bottle to use for boiling the water. The bottle placed in the fire breaks from the heat. Fred is too weak to help much by this time so Amelia searches the beach and finds part of the rudder from the Electra as it breaks up in the surf. It has a short piece of cable attached so she uses it to hang another bottle above the fire to boil water and this works. She uses the knife blades attached to a branch for a spear and hunts food for both of them.
Fred dies a few days later and she is getting weak so she can only drag his body a little way from the camp, she strips it for anything useful. (Boots and a few other items that has also been found) and then buries him. (This is why his bones were not recovered with hers.) A few weeks pass and the water is gone. Too weak to gather food any longer she makes herself as comfortable as she can under a tree at the camp site and dies. The Electra is only accessible at low tide but the colonial children play on the wreck for a few years, bringing parts back to camp before it slips down the slope into deep water to be recovered by TIGHAR in 2014.
How’s that for and “After the landing” story?     
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Chris Johnson

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #373 on: August 06, 2013, 09:15:32 AM »

Do the CG carry out a survey of the reef flat to determin if its safe to land?

 :P
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #374 on: August 06, 2013, 09:17:10 AM »

So what's the point in engaging in "pure fiction" that is completely devoid of any factual support?
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