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Author Topic: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival  (Read 251725 times)

Gary LaPook

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #120 on: March 12, 2012, 01:18:36 AM »


New York Times - September 12, 1925
Commander Rodgers's father, Admiral John A. Rodgers, is understood to have been lost once for a considerable period while on a polar exhibition.  That was the reason the flight commander's mother insisted that he take with him on this flight a small water still.

I watched a silent 1929 movie tonight on the Turner Classics Movie channel called The Flying Fleet about naval aviation and the movie was made with the full cooperation of the Navy. Towards the end of the movie the hero gets chosen for the "Hawaii flight" probably based on the Rogers' flight. The seaplane goes down and the survivors are floating around on the seaplane getting thirsty and I was hoping that they would drag out a still, but they didn't.

I have also attached two screen captures, notice the navigator standing up through a hatch in the nose of the plane taking a sextant observation. If you watch the movie you can see the navigator moving around out there while taking the observation and you can see his parachute harness flapping in the slipstream.

(Bob, take a look at these pictures since they are responsive to what you said on March 23, 2002:

"The overhead hatch could not be opened in flight.   Even if it could be opened,
this is a ludicrous suggestion.  In order to use the A-5 octant, Noonan would
have to stand in the hatch opening with his upper torso, and the octant, fully exposed
to the slipstream.  He would be hard put to stay in the aircraft, or to retain a
grip on the octant, let alone get any usable sights.")


gl
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 02:39:00 AM by Gary LaPook »
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #121 on: March 12, 2012, 02:42:13 AM »


Perhaps.  The original discussion was whether or not the collection of newspaper articles references to a 'water machine' had any credibility.  There were essentially two varieties of these articles.  Some of the articles refer to the machine as vaporizing water from the ocean, and some of the articles refer to the machine as vaporiziing from human breath. 

Eric, could you post these newspaper articles or links to them? The only article that has been posted is this one:



gl
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John Joseph Barrett

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #122 on: March 12, 2012, 07:36:01 AM »

In the movie "Expendibles" there is a scene where Jason Stedman's character opens a hatch in the front of the plane and stands up into the wind (wearing goggles) while they strafe a pier. If they can do it in a movie it must be true. Therefore, Noonan was able to stand up through the hatch to take sightings with his sextant. Although I think it is possible to stand up and even move about (remember the wingwalkers in the barnstorming days) I don't see being able to hold the sextant steady enough to take a reliable reading as a reality. Maybe Mythbusters could test this theory?   LTM who loved a good test.  -John
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #123 on: March 12, 2012, 09:44:28 AM »

Guys and gals---unless I missed it, has there been anything found of personal affects of Fred on Niku? not the sextant box, but shoes, ot something of that nature? If not, there may be a real possiblilty the he did not get out of the electra.
Betty indicates in her notes that he was injured. How much, we dont know, but I suspect at least a concussion if he hit his head in the landing. Possibly somewhat more. Might it be a real possibility that Amelia wasnt able to get him out of the cockpit. If the Electra was on the reef, and the tides were filling the plane with water, the only other way out would have been the hatch on top of the cabin. I doubt seriously that she would have been able to get lift his weight through the hatch. Even if she did, and was able to make it off the plane, they would have been in the water (possibly).
My point is that AE may have been virtually on her own to survive. If Fred was not able to get out of the cabin, the heat during the day would have made survival in the plane a very hard task. If he did make it out, what contributions could he have made to their mutual survival.

Any ideas?
Tom Swearengen TIGHAR # 3297
 
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #124 on: March 12, 2012, 10:44:46 AM »

In the movie "Expendibles" there is a scene where Jason Stedman's character opens a hatch in the front of the plane and stands up into the wind (wearing goggles) while they strafe a pier. If they can do it in a movie it must be true. Therefore, Noonan was able to stand up through the hatch to take sightings with his sextant. Although I think it is possible to stand up and even move about (remember the wingwalkers in the barnstorming days) I don't see being able to hold the sextant steady enough to take a reliable reading as a reality. Maybe Mythbusters could test this theory?   LTM who loved a good test.  -John
Stedman, the star of "The Expendables," told the women on "The View" that he actually did fly in that open hatch. But whether he did or not there were plenty of celestial observations taken that way in the early days, it was the standard way for many years. Some notables who did it that way, Gago Coutinho in 1922, first crossing of the South Atlantic; Francis Chichester in 1931, first crossing of the Tasman Sea; Charles Lindbergh in 1933, crossing the South Atlantic, etc.

I have attached an Air Force picture of a navigator doing exactly that, taking an observation standing up with his head and shoulders protruding through a hatch in the top of a Fokker Tri-Motor in 1927. This is published on page 154 of Most Probable Position, A History Of Aerial Navigation To 1941, Monte Wright, 1972.  I have never taken sights from an open cockpit but when I was young and foolish I did some air to air photography from a Grumman Tiger. I had a another pilot fly the airplane and I slid the canopy back and stood up so
I could take photos of the other plane in formation over the top of the canopy and I don't remember ever being blown out of the airplane. I never lost the camera either and the pictures turned out good. And it is not difficult to hold on to small instruments in the slipstream, I took many photos with my hand held Nikon while in freefall, (120 mph IAS is terminal velocity), holding the camera, looking through the standard viewfinder, and cocking the shutter each time, I have attached a sample.

gl
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 06:13:07 PM by Gary LaPook »
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #125 on: March 12, 2012, 11:28:25 AM »


Tom
Certainly would alter the "survival" mode for AE if FN wasn't off the plane when it went over the edge.

Betty's notes certainly makes it appear as if  an injured FN wantedto, and was tryong to, get off the plane but was being blocked and impeded from doing so by AE.  This tells me that FN was up in the cockpit, with AE, trying to exit by way of the hatch.  If he was in the back, why wouldn't he just open the cabin door and exit?

If AE was alone on the Island could she have fabricated a means, raft?, to escape?  Tom Hanks did it in the movie, but then that was  "the movies"..   Would she even have considered it?  Who Knows?
No Worries Mates
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #126 on: March 12, 2012, 11:48:19 AM »


Re: Fred's stuff, don't forget the jack knife blade, but then again there was such a knife listed on the Luke Inventory so AE could have been using it.

Perhaps both of them were in the plane when it went over?
The artifacts at Seven Site. being attributed to AE, could have been left there during the period from 7/2 and 7/7 when they might have established a day camp.  (I know, Marty, coulda, mighta, etc.)
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Erik

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #127 on: March 12, 2012, 12:41:59 PM »


Perhaps.  The original discussion was whether or not the collection of newspaper articles references to a 'water machine' had any credibility.  There were essentially two varieties of these articles.  Some of the articles refer to the machine as vaporizing water from the ocean, and some of the articles refer to the machine as vaporiziing from human breath. 

Eric, could you post these newspaper articles or links to them?

A lot of the articles I got were copyright protected that I pulled from my local library for no charge.  Sorry, I didn't create screen captures or links.  When possible, I have provided the citation though.

There are a bunch of articles that are available on Google news archives.  Click here to see the search results. 

Here are some quick snippets from the results
  • "He said she had a water distilling machine that "guarantees they won't die...."
  • "With any luck at fishing and continued operation of the vaporizing machine they..."
  • "...fishing tackle and most important, a machine to vaporize drinking water...."
  • "...operation of the machine, they could life (sic) indefinitely."
  • "...the machine that manufactures water out of human breath..."
  • "...a newly invented substance designed to disperse (sic) fog."
*note* = in light of the "vaporizing" terminology, could "disperse" mean "dispense"?

 
This article I found interesting too.  It calls the device an "outfit"....

WORLD FLIERS ARE MISSING IN PACIFIC | The Examiner - July 5, 1937
"They also have an outfit which manufactures drinking water by condensing the human breath, a two-man rubber raft, flares, and a bright orange kite they could send aloft to attract attention."
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 01:23:46 PM by Erik »
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #128 on: March 12, 2012, 01:12:10 PM »


Any  and all of those items could have been left during the time period between the landing and the plane going over the edge.  AE or FN or both could have gone over with it and the items would have been left behind, as would the fire features.
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #129 on: March 12, 2012, 03:53:40 PM »


A lot of the articles I got were copyright protected that I pulled from my local library for no charge.  Sorry, I didn't create screen captures or links.  When possible, I have provided the citation though.

There are a bunch of articles that are available on Google news archives.  Click here to see the search results. 

Here are some quick snippets from the results
  • "He said she had a water distilling machine that "guarantees they won't die...."
  • "With any luck at fishing and continued operation of the vaporizing machine they..."
  • "...fishing tackle and most important, a machine to vaporize drinking water...."
  • "...operation of the machine, they could life (sic) indefinitely."
  • "...the machine that manufactures water out of human breath..."
  • "...a newly invented substance designed to disperse (sic) fog."
*note* = in light of the "vaporizing" terminology, could "disperse" mean "dispense"?

 
This article I found interesting too.  It calls the device an "outfit"....

WORLD FLIERS ARE MISSING IN PACIFIC | The Examiner - July 5, 1937
"They also have an outfit which manufactures drinking water by condensing the human breath, a two-man rubber raft, flares, and a bright orange kite they could send aloft to attract attention."
Thanks for that link, Eric. I looked at all the stories and, as I suspected, even though the wording varies, they can all be traced back to a post loss statement by Mantz. None of the stories quote any other authority. A many times repeated story from just one original source does not gain more credibility just by repetition.

Do you have any other stories quoting any other source than Mantz? The best evidence would be a story published prior to the disappearance, possibly describing her equipment, published prior to the departure from Miami at the latest.

gl
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 06:17:35 PM by Gary LaPook »
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #130 on: March 12, 2012, 04:24:30 PM »


Bones, ah yes, the bones.

I recall that in the Emily Sikulis interview she related that yhe initial settlers talked about there being two locations of bones, one being not far from the NC area and consisting of many bones perhaps from as many as 10 individuals, the other being the undividual set nearer to the aircraft wreckage.  What happened to all those other bones?  Did thhe settlers bury them?

Janet Powell, in her technical paper "The Wreck Of The Norwich City" on Ameliapedia,tells of there being 11 fatalities, the bodies of three of whom washed up on the beach and were buried "on the beach" by the survivors.  That leaves 8 whose bodies might have washed up on the beach between December 1929 when the survivors left and December 1938 when the settlers arrived.
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LTM   Harry (TIGHAR #3244R)
 
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #131 on: March 12, 2012, 04:26:15 PM »

In the movie "Expendibles" there is a scene where Jason Stedman's character opens a hatch in the front of the plane and stands up into the wind (wearing goggles) while they strafe a pier. If they can do it in a movie it must be true. Therefore, Noonan was able to stand up through the hatch to take sightings with his sextant. Although I think it is possible to stand up and even move about (remember the wingwalkers in the barnstorming days) I don't see being able to hold the sextant steady enough to take a reliable reading as a reality. Maybe Mythbusters could test this theory?   LTM who loved a good test.  -John
The plane used in the "Expendables" is a Grumman Albatross which does have a hatch in the bow for use in mooring and anchoring. Notice the mooring cleat behind Stedman's left hand. It was nothing out of the ordinary to have a machinegun mounted in the nose of a plane, see the Gotha bomber.

gl

gl
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 02:13:05 AM by Gary LaPook »
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #132 on: March 12, 2012, 04:55:00 PM »


Stedman, the star of "The Expendables," told the women on "The View" that he actually did fly in that open hatch. But whether he did or not there were plenty of celestial observations taken that way in the early days, it was the standard way for many years. Some notables who did it that way, Gago Coutinho in 1922, first crossing of the South Atlantic; Francis Chichester in 1931, first crossing of the Tasman Sea; Charles Lindbergh in 1933, crossing the South Atlantic, etc.


gl


Gago Coutinho's 1922 plane has a lot of "outside" from which to shoot celestial observations, I have attached a photo I took of it in the Portuguese Naval Museum in Lisbon



Also a photo of Lindbergh's 1933 Sirius plane, also a whole lots of "outside" to use his Pioneer octant from. The caption reads: "THE LINDBERGH`S VISIT SHETLAND 1933.

Above:  Famous transatlantic aviator  Col. Charles Lindbergh and his wife Anne visit Lerwick on another epic flight while returning from Japan in 1933."

And one of Chichester's type of plane, also a lot of "outside" to take celestial observations from, a DH Gypsy Moth and also a photo of Chichester taking off.

gl
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 06:30:55 PM by Gary LaPook »
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #133 on: March 12, 2012, 05:06:06 PM »


"of course your average late 20's sea man always carried a 1930's compact!!!!!"
Perhaps one of the "Coasties" bestowed a "gift" on his favorite young native lady friend with whom he would spend time in night time encounters at the seven site clearing.
Ya know, like GI's and nylon stockings aand chocolate bars in later times?
No Worries Mates
LTM   Harry (TIGHAR #3244R)
 
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richie conroy

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #134 on: March 13, 2012, 03:16:34 PM »

Possible Fred related material:

Sextant Box
Inverting Eye Peice
Benedictine Bottle  ;)
Male Shoes
1930's lighter found in early TIGHAR expedition
Buttons

talking bout sextant boxes is the box in pic i have attached too big to be a sextant box dya think ?

Me I beleive Fred made it to the island.

I don't think any form of boat/raft escape was possible.
We are an echo of the past


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