Still from ROV video

[John Ousterhout]

When big chuncks of coral get washed up onto the reef, where do they originate from?  The "spurs and grooves"?  The top surface of the reef?  Deep down the side of the reef?  Does anyone know?
I'm curious to know just what are the forces that tear loose a piece of relatively monolithic structure like a piece of reef that may be thousands of years in the growing.  The violence of storm wave action is obvious, but only reaches a few meters deep from the surface.  How does water manage to get leverage on it, and get it up onto the reef flat?  Is there a "prevailing direction" they tend to move?  If so, then there may be a sort of "debris trail" down-stream of the island, where anything heavy enough to sink would be deposited.  Where I live is a coulee washout area (look up channeled scablands).  Big rocks are piled up where flood waters initially spilled out of the coulee, with the size/weight of rocks getting smaller/lighter the further downstream one looks, in a natural sorting process.  Aluminum aircraft fragments would be further downstream than chunks of coral, or engines.
Am I right to assume the chunks come from the reef edge, just below the waterline?  That's also where TIGHAR suspects the Lockheed was hidden during the flyover.

[Tom Swearengen]

this is a stretch---earthquake activity--
well--its a thought. Samoa has had a few-

[Ric Gillespie]

When big chuncks of coral get washed up onto the reef, where do they originate from?

Underwater video taken by our divers shows that there are significant overhangs/caves in places along the reef slope at depths of less than 100 feet.  It seems most reasonable that the big chunks of coral that have been thrown up on to the reef flat in some places are the result of uncommonly humongous storms breaking off the overhangs and throwing them up on to the reef flat.  The force that would take is sobering to contemplate but I can't imagine any other source.

Is there a "prevailing direction" they tend to move?

The really bad boys come out of the northwest.

  If so, then there may be a sort of "debris trail" down-stream of the island, where anything heavy enough to sink would be deposited.  ... Aluminum aircraft fragments would be further downstream than chunks of coral, or engines.

That's kind of been my assumption.  I would expect the massive bits - engines, center section, landing gear - to be fairly deep but not far laterally from where the plane went over the edge.  There may also be a debris trail of smaller "dense" components - batteries, radios, gear motor, flap motor, cables, etc. - that broke free and tumbled down the slope as the fuselage came apart.  (But I'm not convinced that we've seen any such debris in the ROV video.)

Components that have more surface area relative to mass  - outer wing panels, empennage, etc. - should be either downstream or thrown up onto the reef flat and shoreline to be scavenged by the locals.

Buoyant components - floor boards, fuel and oil tanks, maybe even the cabin door - might have washed up on the shore or been carried through the main passage into the lagoon to fetch up almost anywhere along the lagoon shore.

[richie conroy]

jeff can u check this still out aswell look in white box under arrow

it looks to me like an emblem to left and letter E but it cud be nothink just need another opinion thx  :)

[richie conroy]

Ric can u tell me anythink about objects that have arrows pointed to them in photo's

photo 1 there appears to be a tree trunk under electra an if u make photo bigger u can make out wavey squiggle silver line

photo 2 is what looks like a shark ?

photo 3 is it just another glint on the water as its on nearly all photo's

photo 4 aerial view off reef i was wondering why the other objects haven't been highlighted or are they just rubbish ?

[John Joseph Barrett]

Ric and all, somewhere back in this thread I posted about how deep objects can be in the ocean and still be effected by surface storms. Three examples from my diving experience: 1) USS Spiegel Grove- Sunk as a reef off of Key Largo Florida, landed on her side and was later rolled upright and slid backward until her anchor chains came up taught by a hurricane (I can't remember which one). She lies at 120 feet; 2) USS Aeolus- Sunk as a reef off of North Carolina, landed on her side and was later broken into three pieces some of which were righted by hurricane Irene (??). She lies at 110 feet; USCGS Spar- sunk as a reef off of North Carolina, landed on her keel and was later rolled 45 degrees and moved 200 feet by hurricane Earl. She lies at 110 feet. If the reef at Niku has caves and overhangs at 100 feet or less, it stands to reason that severe storms could cause pieces to break off and be tossed onto the flat. If a ship at 120 feet can be rolled and moved by the sea, I hate to think what could happen to an aluminum aircraft.  LTM- John

[Tom Swearengen]

if pic 2 is a shark-----man its Huge. But the water should be pretty shallow right there, so I would think not---.
But the black dot is pretty prevelant--
Tom

[Ric Gillespie]

photo 1 there appears to be a tree trunk under electra an if u make photo bigger u can make out wavey squiggle silver line

If you go frame by frame in a hi-res version of the takeoff film you can see that it's a small bush or short tree on the other side of the runway.
 

photo 2 is what looks like a shark ?

There's a dark shape on the reef edge that I've wondered about for a long time, but there's no indication that it's a man-made object and it's way too big to be a shark (I hope).

photo 3 is it just another glint on the water as its on nearly all photo's

That's a flaw in the photo.

photo 4 aerial view off reef i was wondering why the other objects haven't been highlighted or are they just rubbish ?

The only way to tell for sure whether a mark on a photo is is a real thing or just a flaw in the photo is to have two photos of the same area. Real things will be in the same place on both photos.   The only features that Jeff pointed out are the ones that appear in both photos and are therefore real.

[Tom Swearengen]

Ric--in reference to the humungous storms---do we know of the weather in the area from july2 through july9, and whether there were any exceptionally high and strong tides during that time? In Finding Amelia, you write from Betty's notebook that the water was knee deep during one of the radio transmissions. I'm guessing that the weather comes from the Northwest during the summer months, and was still prevelant post landing. If thats the case, and if the Electra was damaged on the reef, it didnt stand a chance.
I hate to speculate on someone in the rear cabin possibly being tossed around back there by really strong tidal action.
Thoughts?
Tom

[richie conroy]

thanks Ric

just thought i would post these photo's as well, ov what i come across yesterday

pic 1 an 2 are of Amelia on electra, pic's are more for tail wheel

pic 3 an 4 are ov same newspaper page, read the column bottom left pic 3 about amelia's bag what she left at lae obviously what she forgot due to the thermos comment :) 

u will probably have to copy an save to comp to enlarge image

[Ric Gillespie]

Ric--in reference to the humungous storms---do we know of the weather in the area from july2 through july9, and whether there were any exceptionally high and strong tides during that time?

We know from the Itasca and Colorado logs that there was no unusual weather during that time.  We have very specific information about the tides and water level on the reef at Gardner.  High-tide was gradually getting higher during that period.

I'm guessing that the weather comes from the Northwest during the summer months, and was still prevelant post landing.

No.  The weather comes from the NW during storms.  Storms typically occur between November and March.

[richie conroy]

has anyone read the newspaper clippings yet top right column, second photo about fuel leakage

[Tom Swearengen]

ok Ric---got it!
just thinking out loud-
Tom

[richie conroy]

jeff or anyone get a magnifying glass an look at area were arrow points

The white dot is a flaw in the film.  Just to the right of the white dot is a black dot that is probably a real thing.  It might be chunk of coral tossed up on to the reef flat in a storm - or it could be wreckage.  In any case, it's quite large - a meter or more in diameter - and it appears to be submerged so it's not very tall (less than a meter).

the black dot is the shadow ov white object prob due to position of sun  :)

[Ric Gillespie]

has anyone read the newspaper clippings yet top right column, second photo about fuel leakage

There is nothing there about fuel leakage.  The Army accident report does no say anything about fuel leakage.  The airplane was de-fueled after the accident.