Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 43 44 [45] 46 47 ... 106   Go Down

Author Topic: Still from ROV video  (Read 1088135 times)

richie conroy

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1412
Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #660 on: February 02, 2012, 07:04:07 PM »

does any one know what this metal ring cud be off
We are an echo of the past


Member# 416
 
Logged

Jeff Victor Hayden

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #661 on: February 03, 2012, 04:02:15 AM »

Here's a little bit of info' on RDF antenna:
Airplanes in flight accumulate electric charges52,53 that cause radio noise interference. This is in addition to the interference that might be caused by the ignition system and other electrical equipment.54 Snow,55 ice, rain, and dust particles generally are electrically charged, and, when an airplane flies through masses of such particles, the airplane acquires an electric charge. If the charges through which the airplane flies were uniformly distributed, the matter would be simplified. During turbulent air conditions, accompanying atmospheric storms (a thunderstorm, for example), the magnitude and polarity of the charge from point-to-point along the flight path varies. This causes the rapidly moving airplane to acquire a charge of one sign, then rapidly lose it, and so on. The charge may not be distributed uniformly on the airplane. When an airplane loses charges to the atmosphere, corona and electric sparks often occur; or brush discharges and electric streamers may be formed. These cause electromagnetic radiations, called precipitation static, that may render radio reception impossible, a matter of great seriousness if a pilot is "flying blind" and following the beam of a ground radio-range station.
Although many details are involved, precipitation static could be controlled if receiving systems not sensitive to the static were developed, or, if the accumulating charges on the airplane were drained away slowly and uniformly, so that no sparks and similar discharges occurred.
One of the first developments56 was the use of the shielded loop (Fig. 27) for reception when precipitation static is bad. Such a loop is shielded so that it does not receive energy from an electric field but does receive energy from a magnetic field. Furthermore, a loop is directive and can be "aimed" in the direction of the desired station. The loop is close to the source of disturbance on the airplane and is in the induction field (page 441). Because of the high-voltage nature of the precipitation-static discharges, the electric-field component of the induction field is strong, and the magnetic component is weak. Thus, the electrically shielded loop does not pick up the same amount of noise that would be picked up by an open-wire antenna.57 The radiation field from a distant station arrives at the airplane with equal electric and magnetic components, and the shielded loop receives the desired signal by magnetic induction (page 504). "Open-wire11 antennas, insulated with polyethylene, are also used,53 This insulation reduces the possibility of corona or other discharges from occurring on the receiving antenna where such discharges would be in a strategic location to cause interference. Methods of draining away the charges were early used. These have taken the form of trailing wires,56 wicks,52,53 and other devices. Tufts of fine stainless steel wire have been advocated.53 Radio Noise Meters.59,60,61 Various instruments and methods have been used for measuring radio noise. Cooperative work has resulted in the development of a standard instrument and methods of measuring radio noise.58 This instrument covers the ranges of 150 to 350 kilocycles, and 540 to 18,000 kilocycles. The radio noise meter is essentially a superheterodyne radio receiver with suitable weighting arrangements in the circuit of the second detector so that the response of the measuring instrument in this circuit will have the desired characteristics.
Figure 27. An antistatic shielded loop antenna located for experimental purposes beneath an airplane. In practice the loop is usually located beneath the front portion of the main body of the airplane. The dark band around the loop is an insulating insert in the metal shield so that the shield will not offer a continuous path to current flow. (Courtesy Bell Telephone System.)  Picture quality zero marks but, I'll try to get a better one of a 1930's RDF antenna


This must be the place
 
Logged

Jeff Victor Hayden

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #662 on: February 03, 2012, 04:50:27 AM »

Any suggestions as to what this little box of tricks used to be?

This must be the place
 
Logged

Tom Swearengen

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 818
  • earhart monument, Hawaii
Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #663 on: February 03, 2012, 05:32:58 AM »

Ok---for all of you 'fishing leader' guys-----how far from the village was the ROV when these were taken, AND 800 feet down? HUM--I'll bet 1/2 to 3/4 miles out then 800 down. Fishing leader? I dont think so, but you guys are smarter than me!
Tom
 
Tom Swearengen TIGHAR # 3297
 
Logged

Jeff Victor Hayden

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #664 on: February 03, 2012, 05:54:58 AM »

Forget about the fishing puns, they're just a red herring  :)
Another 'wire' trail, sorry :(
The lower red arrow points to a 'wire', the upper red arrow points to where the 'wire' goes through something before arriving at its final destination, the object outlined in blue. Forget the bit with the black cross, that's just sitting on top of the object outlined in blue, although if you care to follow the object with the black cross on it to its destination you will be amazed.
This must be the place
 
Logged

richie conroy

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1412
Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #665 on: February 03, 2012, 09:01:04 AM »

jeff here is the picture i posted yesterday of the area ur looking at i have inverted image an rotated 180 degree's

u will have to dismiss the lines i have put on as they were pointing objects out

We are an echo of the past


Member# 416
 
Logged

Jeff Victor Hayden

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #666 on: February 03, 2012, 09:28:43 AM »

jeff here is the picture i posted yesterday of the area ur looking at i have inverted image an rotated 180 degree's

u will have to dismiss the lines i have put on as they were pointing objects out



Good job Richie, you can now see the guts of the outer shield now a bit clearer. The inner wire and outer shield have to be totally insulated from the aeroplane metalwork for it to work correctly + the inner wire and outer case of the shield similarly have to be insulated from each other. Even using stainless steel fasteners will ruin the effect of the design I believe.
This must be the place
 
Logged

richie conroy

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1412
Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #667 on: February 03, 2012, 09:30:05 AM »

o an jeff i think i solved the wire rope issue
We are an echo of the past


Member# 416
 
Logged

Jeff Victor Hayden

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #668 on: February 03, 2012, 09:57:25 AM »

o an jeff i think i solved the wire rope issue
That framework in the background of your last pic' Richie. It's too flimsy to be a structural part of the airframe. Whatever it was clad in has long gone so, it must have been very thin in comparison to aircraft skin. Perhaps it was designed to contain something?
This must be the place
 
Logged

JNev

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 778
  • It's a GOOD thing to be in the cornfield...
Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #669 on: February 03, 2012, 10:09:25 AM »

Ok---for all of you 'fishing leader' guys-----how far from the village was the ROV when these were taken, AND 800 feet down? HUM--I'll bet 1/2 to 3/4 miles out then 800 down. Fishing leader? I dont think so, but you guys are smarter than me!
Tom

No doubt there's still a long way to travel before anyone proves the wire is really part of a loop antenna -

But I have major doubts about it being fishing leader or similar wire: it's too rigid in the currents and has too much evident memory of shape.

That said, I'm not sure we know yet exactly how the core of an RDF loop behaves when in 'free air' (or free water), so to speak - free of the normal structure that we see from the outside.  And, for this wire to survive 'in shape' like it is, the outer material would have had to give way without major trauma or the wire would have suffered more deformation.  It is possible that the outer material deteriorated and fell away in chunks over time, but we need to understand more about how these things were constructed at the time to know that. 

The character of the wire within a loop also needs to be better understood to know if it would stand free in its 'loop' shape or not too.

I hope Jeff Hayden can provide more details from the source his recent post came from - and it would be good to get a better picture of an old loop (it appears what he was trying to show was one that was cut-away but hard to tell).

There are also tell-tale bits of something lying on the sediment below the wire in some of these shots that is suggestive of shielding that fits around such a wire.  Then there are the other 'wiring' segments nearby - and components that Jeff Hayden is seeing (although I still having trouble with that picture - but I'm not the greatest at this stuff for sure).  All of that must be better understood - but this is one strange conglomeration of goods - I don't think the loop fishing leader.

Time will tell.  But I think TIGHAR was right to say they're going to need a bigger boat...

LTM -
- Jeff Neville

Former Member 3074R
 
Logged

Jeff Victor Hayden

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #670 on: February 03, 2012, 10:40:27 AM »

Ok---for all of you 'fishing leader' guys-----how far from the village was the ROV when these were taken, AND 800 feet down? HUM--I'll bet 1/2 to 3/4 miles out then 800 down. Fishing leader? I dont think so, but you guys are smarter than me!
Tom

No doubt there's still a long way to travel before anyone proves the wire is really part of a loop antenna -

But I have major doubts about it being fishing leader or similar wire: it's too rigid in the currents and has too much evident memory of shape.

That said, I'm not sure we know yet exactly how the core of an RDF loop behaves when in 'free air' (or free water), so to speak - free of the normal structure that we see from the outside.  And, for this wire to survive 'in shape' like it is, the outer material would have had to give way without major trauma or the wire would have suffered more deformation.  It is possible that the outer material deteriorated and fell away in chunks over time, but we need to understand more about how these things were constructed at the time to know that. 

The character of the wire within a loop also needs to be better understood to know if it would stand free in its 'loop' shape or not too.

I hope Jeff Hayden can provide more details from the source his recent post came from - and it would be good to get a better picture of an old loop (it appears what he was trying to show was one that was cut-away but hard to tell).

There are also tell-tale bits of something lying on the sediment below the wire in some of these shots that is suggestive of shielding that fits around such a wire.  Then there are the other 'wiring' segments nearby - and components that Jeff Hayden is seeing (although I still having trouble with that picture - but I'm not the greatest at this stuff for sure).  All of that must be better understood - but this is one strange conglomeration of goods - I don't think the loop fishing leader.

Time will tell.  But I think TIGHAR was right to say they're going to need a bigger boat...

LTM -
Jeff, the picture is courtesy of Bell labs' and you're right, it's an awful pic, but it's the only one I can find at the moment of the 'insides'. Short of buying one on fleabay and taking it apart... that might be the only option.
The pics' I posted re: another bit of wire may need amending. The object is what I suggested, the wire bit may not be IMHO. I always take notice of other peoples post and therefore always, I am open to correction on the basis of what other people have shown. That's how progress is made
Wasn't it police chief Brodie in the film jaws who suggested they might need a bigger boat on seeing the size of the shark?
This must be the place
 
Logged

Harry Howe, Jr.

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 576
  • Nuclear Physicist(Ret) Pilot(Ret) Scuba(Ret)
Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #671 on: February 03, 2012, 11:13:37 AM »


A bigger boat?   Yes, and the Glomar Explorer comes to mind.  Designed to find, go to, look at, go down to, and bring up parts of a Soviet Nuclear Sub for the CIA (the cover story was that the Hughes Corp. wanted to explore the sea bottom for the mining of magnesium)Sure.
Maybe TIGHAR  could put in a bid if/when it next comes up on eBay.  I think it is now in Indonesia supporting oil drilling operations.

Seriously now and obviously, another ROV operation with the capability of bringing up promising candidates  for examination and analysis is needed between now and the Big Boat recovery  operation.  But Then, RIC knows that and is prolly in the planning stages for that step.  GO! RIC, get that thing!
No Worries Mates
LTM   Harry (TIGHAR #3244R)
 
Logged

richie conroy

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1412
Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #672 on: February 03, 2012, 11:50:01 AM »

o an jeff i think i solved the wire rope issue
That framework in the background of your last pic' Richie. It's too flimsy to be a structural part of the airframe. Whatever it was clad in has long gone so, it must have been very thin in comparison to aircraft skin. Perhaps it was designed to contain something?

who said it was frame work i never ?

in the pic i posted yesterday, i have outlined stuff that appear man made, they are  unrelated to ur wire which u can see in image, u posted about ur pic today  an i only had inverted edited pic of yesterday to show better view of  ur wire ? thats why i said dismiss my lines ?
We are an echo of the past


Member# 416
 
Logged

richie conroy

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1412
Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #673 on: February 03, 2012, 11:53:39 AM »

will let yous decide if these still's show electrical wire  :)
We are an echo of the past


Member# 416
 
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 11:58:01 AM by richie conroy »
Logged

Jeff Victor Hayden

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #674 on: February 03, 2012, 01:32:19 PM »

will let yous decide if these still's show electrical wire  :)

Richie, wire pic3. The end of that wire/rope/cable, not the 2 loop ones, the one on the right. It doesn't look like wire/rope/cable at the end section, it looks like, well, it doesn't look right. Can you get a better handle on that pic?
This must be the place
 
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 43 44 [45] 46 47 ... 106   Go Up
 

Copyright 2021 by TIGHAR, a non-profit foundation. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be reproduced by xerographic, photographic, digital or any other means for any purpose. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be stored in a retrieval system, copied, transmitted or transferred in any form or by any means, whether electronic, mechanical, digital, photographic, magnetic or otherwise, for any purpose without the express, written permission of TIGHAR. All rights reserved.

Contact us at: info@tighar.org • Phone: 610-467-1937 • Membership formwebmaster@tighar.org

Powered by MySQL SMF 2.0.18 | SMF © 2021, Simple Machines Powered by PHP