Still from ROV video

[richie conroy]

jeff in ur stills above have u really studied them  :)

will post some pics in a bit  :)

[Harry Howe, Jr.]

Jeff N
As a former scuba diver/enthusiast, I can attest that objects underwater appear to be closer and larger than one would think.  Have often reached out to touch something on a wreck only to realize it is smaller than it appears and farther away than arm's length. The Fish look really big when viewed in the water also (holding arms out really wide and saying," it was this big")   Has to do with the clarity, and the reflective and refractive indices of water.

[Harry Howe, Jr.]

With respect to what thhe "Official Analysts" might think of all this, we must bear in mind that there were folks, including TIGHAR folks, viewing the video stuff "live time" i.e. as it was being looked at and recorded.  You can bet that those things that jump out at  us did the same to them.

I recall RIC making a comment like  We're getting closer and it will blow your socks off.  (I think it was in a News section of the expedition progress (I'm sure Marty will know where it is and supply a link.  After he chides me, rightlfully, for my lack of scholarship :) ))

[Don Dollinger]

FWIW:  As a diver, and Harry should be aware of this too unless you have never dived a coral reef.  There are so many formations that look as if they are man-made that are natural.  Laser straight lines, circles, near perfect box shapes, etc.  Impressive, but natural.  Granted some of the things DO LOOK like they could be covering man-made items, but the odds are heavily in the favor of them being natural.  Look at the Bimini Road, they have been trying for years to prove one way or the other on whether that is man made or natural.  Still they are divided right down the middle on it.  Not trying to dampen your spirits and am impressed with the amount of time that you have given to this subject but most of what has been pointed out is quite a stretch to envision even with the outlines of what ya all THINK the object could be.  2 more points and I will leave you too it.  First off, when you are talking about distances you must take into account the fact that water magnifies items by upto 40% depending on distance from object.  Lastly, you are attributing this to coral growth over the items.  Coral takes eons to grow even a millimeter and due to lack of light, coral does not grow at depths below 50 meters.  I have seen and dived many shipwreck sites and many that have been submerged for 100's of years have many pieces that are very easily identified and nearly free of any accumulation of anything.  If there was that much plane wreckage there you'd have seen at least one piece (not counting the rope/cable) that would have at least a portion of it that would have been easily discernable (almost beyond a shadow of a doubt) that it is a man made item.  Not seeing it.  YMMV.

LTM,

Don

[John Joseph Barrett]

From our friends at PADI "Object appear to be 33% larger and 25% closer underwater (ratio 4:3) due to REFRACTION". This, of course, is not taking into account any lens on the ROV camera which may change it even more.  As Harry pointed out, until you become accustomed to the effect of refraction, you will reach out for and miss objects and things you see will appear to be larger than they really are.  LTM -John

[Tom Swearengen]

Perhaps some of the wreckage was 'covered' by the coral as it slid own the reef, breaking coral off as it went. I do agree with what Don says. Gee----I wish my father was alive-----he was one of the first Marine Corps divers, and tested some of the original diving suits---yep the ones that look like the Michelin Tire man. I'm sure he would have jumped at the chance to look this reef over!
Tom

[Jeff Victor Hayden]

Richies coral direction finder revisited
Red; it's metal with a nice concentric row of holes that hold the bit with the red cross to it
Blue; the PFM box that goes with the direction finder
Yellow; A possible home for the circular bit of wire now? See later post re: circle of wire (There's a bit of wire from the cable harness but out of this shot)
Green; the bit that has broken off therefore making us assume it was a coral outcrop because it wasn't complete
The circle of wire is next to Richies RDF 'coral outcrop'

The 'stuff' lying on the reef floor really caps the context - the 'wire' loop is suggestive enough, now I understand the 'fit' you've been seeing to the 'covering' (coral - encrusted sho' nuff?) - but that looks like broken shielding lying on the seafloor beneath this mess.  Your 'black stuff' here an there makes more sense - possible debris from break-up of detailed parts, like a 'loop'.  Then there's the cable...  Damn-a-mighty.

LTM -

Has anybody asked themselves why the piece of wire is so easily identified while all the other stuff takes a very good imagination?

gl

With all due respect Gary, Ric and his team theorised that this was the place to search. They didn't just turn up and randomly lob the ROV over the side of the boat here there and everywhere. Given the footage they obtained in difficult circumstances they did a remarkable job. It turns out that the initial star of the footage was the 'wire and rope', ok...
All it needed was someone with a little patience (and imagination) to step back and ask the question "this is where it is predicted to be, I wonder if ...?" So, ignoring the 'wire and rope' and concentrating on what else is in each frame we come to the stage we are at now.
It's aeroplane wreckage for sure (awaiting 'official' confirmation)
At this stage we don't know the manufacturer or model, yet.
At this stage it isn't a Lockheed Electra.
I have followed your line of thought regarding the navigation, communications etc... and it is very compelling and, I can follow your reasoning very well on how they couldn't have navigated to Gardner island. So, with that in mind I am reluctant to say at this stage that it's a lockheed Electra. Lots of planes around this area during ww2 so, who knows...
Jeff

[Don Dollinger]

From our friends at PADI "Object appear to be 33% larger and 25% closer underwater (ratio 4:3) due to REFRACTION". This, of course, is not taking into account any lens on the ROV camera which may change it even more.  As Harry pointed out, until you become accustomed to the effect of refraction, you will reach out for and miss objects and things you see will appear to be larger than they really are.

Thanx for the correction.  It has been many years since my PADI training and could not remember the exact ratio.  Your requote of that info rang a bell for sure.

LTM,

Don

[Jeff Victor Hayden]

FWIW:  As a diver, and Harry should be aware of this too unless you have never dived a coral reef.  There are so many formations that look as if they are man-made that are natural.  Laser straight lines, circles, near perfect box shapes, etc.  Impressive, but natural.  Granted some of the things DO LOOK like they could be covering man-made items, but the odds are heavily in the favor of them being natural.  Look at the Bimini Road, they have been trying for years to prove one way or the other on whether that is man made or natural.  Still they are divided right down the middle on it.  Not trying to dampen your spirits and am impressed with the amount of time that you have given to this subject but most of what has been pointed out is quite a stretch to envision even with the outlines of what ya all THINK the object could be.  2 more points and I will leave you too it.  First off, when you are talking about distances you must take into account the fact that water magnifies items by upto 40% depending on distance from object.  Lastly, you are attributing this to coral growth over the items.  Coral takes eons to grow even a millimeter and due to lack of light, coral does not grow at depths below 50 meters.  I have seen and dived many shipwreck sites and many that have been submerged for 100's of years have many pieces that are very easily identified and nearly free of any accumulation of anything.  If there was that much plane wreckage there you'd have seen at least one piece (not counting the rope/cable) that would have at least a portion of it that would have been easily discernable (almost beyond a shadow of a doubt) that it is a man made item.  Not seeing it.  YMMV.

LTM,

Don

Don, although I agree with what you have pointed out I would like to remind you that it's not just the apparent 'shape' we are talking about. On closer examination these 'coral outcrops' are hiding something. Invariably you can define the thin metal edges, regular symmetrical lines of 'holes', the shiny silver colour of the metal, the torn edges, the 'coral outcrops' that are immitating latches, struts, wheels, antenna etc...
Now, it's probably isn't coral 'growth' as you pointed out but, coral sediment/residue/silt from the reef edge grinding it away 100's of metres above this lot, clouds of it continuously raining down onto this stuff. Wouldn't surprise me that you would be able to hoover most of this stuff away. Note the clouds of sediment kicked up by the small ROV props during the footage.
Scale and distances are an issue as has been pointed out before and I agree, it's a challenge.
With respect
Jeff

[richie conroy]

right pic 1 look were the arrows point too an study area

now pic 2

is rotated 180 degree's, an inverted i have highlighted areas from pic 1 but also study the other stuff i have only picked 1 object but there is other stuff there  :)

[Harry Howe, Jr.]

For the uninitiated, PADI stands for Prifessional Association of Diving Instructors.

Gary:  Surely you remember your Army traiing to scan from left to right, top to bottom, in circles when looking at a field of vision and trying to detect an object as opposed to looking directly at an area for an xtended time, catching the objec t in peripheral vision bedfore homing in on it.  Especially at night or in limited visual conditions.  This process helps in looking at the video and the stills.

[Harry Howe, Jr.]

Richie
In pic 1 of your post 697 it looks to me like a control wheel (steering wheel) and the thumb and first finger of a flying glove. 

I gotta go lock my doors before the Strait Jacket boys get here.  LOL

[Harry Howe, Jr.]

Don
Nope, never dove anywhere except on Lake Michigan and in quarries around the Chicago area.  No coral, and yes sometimes nature did present things in straight lines, circles and other geometrical shapes, but not very often.  Those are the things that I scsn for in the video snd the stills as an indication that something man-made is there.

[Gary LaPook]

Some more pics of the RDF antenna 'coral outcrop' Notice the straight lines/oblong shape in the first and the thin circular shape with holes in the second. In the third notice the warning message on the RDF antenna, no it won't harm you but, the maintenance guys love to have something to grab onto when working on planes, it stops them falling off of them. The RDF antenna is fragile, you will break it if you use it as a climbing aid. Now, how's it going to stand up to a prolonged pounding on a reef?

OMG!  OMG! OMG! I think I have found the remnants of Earhart's loop antenna!




It looks just like Richie's picture.



gl

[Gary LaPook]

I honestly have had a great deal of trouble seeing much of what Richie's been pointing out - but have to admit getting another firm jolt when I realized I was staring at the corner of what DOES look like an encrusted hatch - right down to the radius.  The visual 'code' cracked a bit wider for me when I realized what I was seeing (or maybe it's the 3.25 power reading glasses I bought for a buck today at Dollar Tree - the screen is suddenly much easier to see...).


LTM -

If you're up to 3.25's then you must be older than me, I'm only up to 2.5's.

gl