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Author Topic: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro  (Read 78685 times)

Ric Gillespie

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Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
« Reply #90 on: July 09, 2015, 05:35:52 PM »

I disagree alittle, Marty. It wasn't the lack of money that caused the problems, although that has been a constant theme and excuse to use when things don't go right (Same as the weather!) I think somebody got antsy and didn't want to wait or look at other alternatives.

This is an ad hominem attack. 
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Bob Smith

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Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
« Reply #91 on: July 09, 2015, 06:13:45 PM »

(I'm looking up the phrase "ad hominem" ) But don't take it personally, Ric. I'm sure you feel pressure from other sources to "get on with it". But I'm sympathizing with you as you are surely between a rock and a hard place sometimes.
Bob S.
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
« Reply #92 on: July 09, 2015, 06:39:58 PM »

(I'm looking up the phrase "ad hominem" )

I suggest that you familiarize yourself with the phrase.

But don't take it personally, Ric.

You essentially called me a liar.  How am I supposed to not take that personally?  I'm going to put you on moderation.  That means your submissions will not appear on the Forum until one of the moderators approves them.
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Eddie Rose

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Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
« Reply #93 on: July 09, 2015, 07:19:30 PM »

Good.  Then I'm sure you're eager to join TIGHAR and help us bring that about - or are you just posturing?

That's an odd comment, and I don't know what to make of it.

I do admire your bravado in the face of recent failures to publicly challenge me to give you money.

I would consider joining and supporting if changes are made. With The Institute now in debt, would that money go to the unpaid bills of the previous expedition?
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
« Reply #94 on: July 09, 2015, 07:30:36 PM »

Good.  Then I'm sure you're eager to join TIGHAR and help us bring that about - or are you just posturing?

That's an odd comment, and I don't know what to make of it.

Monty Fowler calls it asking people to "put their money where their mouth is."

I do admire your bravado in the face of recent failures to publicly challenge me to give you money.

I'm not asking you to give me money.  I'm asking you to make a tax deductible charitable contribution to a 501 c3 public charity.

I would consider joining and supporting if changes are made. With The Institute now in debt, would that money go to the unpaid bills of the previous expedition?

You can earmark a contribution for a specific purpose but membership fees go into the general coffers to be used wherever they're needed.
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Michael HALL

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Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
« Reply #95 on: July 10, 2015, 08:44:29 AM »

Hi Ric,

As an admirer of your commitment and drive towards finding that smoking gun evidence, and from what I have read (although forgive me for skirting through so many posts and reading mainly yours) I get the feeling this trip did not give much more insight.

What is your next stage? Should we be looking forward to another trip in the future to have a better look at the anomaly?

I am also interested to hear if there is any progress in the aluminium window plate?

All the best
Michael Hall
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Chuck Creigh

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Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
« Reply #96 on: July 12, 2015, 02:06:51 PM »

Nice video for Niku VIII Mark. Put together well and really like that guitar solo starting around 11:00. Figured out that song is "Spirits In The Wind" by Willie K. It even got me to dust off my electric again - sore fingers now. What does that have to do with Niku VIII - not much... except there has to be a former musician in every crowd.

Observing you all for years. Was waiting for someone to draw the connection for Betty's notebook having more validity due to 20 meter harmonic frequency easily capable during the peak of the 11 year sunspot cycle in 1937, as it is now (ham bands go mostly dead on off peak years). And 20 meters is mostly storm static free (unlike the 40 and 80 meter frequencies she was using). I am also former extremely active ham operator (in many contests), only during the two years from 1969-1970 (sun spot cycle peak) so I know well how those two frequencies AE used would have behaved then. But harmonic of 20 meters easily possible then - especially skip over the ocean to Florida from Niku (if her transmitter caused harmonics).

Sorry to hear about the ROV problems - the fascinating mystery again deepens and continues...

-Chuck
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Dave Ross Wilkinson

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Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
« Reply #97 on: July 12, 2015, 07:07:25 PM »

Hi Chuck  You wrote
Quote
Was waiting for someone to draw the connection for Betty's notebook having more validity due to 20 meter harmonic frequency easily capable during the peak of the 11 year sunspot cycle in 1937, as it is now

I wish some of the 20m radio work had been done during daylight in the states, when the credible  post-loss signals were heard, instead of a night, which is all I know of.  That could have been such a slam-dunk if someone heard TIGHAR at 8-10 AM on the west coast, or afternoon in Florida!
Dave Wilkinson
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
« Reply #98 on: July 12, 2015, 07:15:04 PM »

I wish some of the 20m radio work had been done during daylight in the states, when the credible  post-loss signals were heard

Very few of the credible post-loss signals were heard in the states and, of those, only a few were heard during hours of daylight in the states.  Nearly all of the credible post-loss signals were heard in the Central Pacific during hours of darkness.  Everyone tends to focus on Betty because the content of what she heard and recorded is so compelling, but her reception was only one of 57 credible occurrences.

The radio transmissions made during Niku VIII were not intended to prove anything relating to 1937.  The transmitter was not the same, the antenna was not the same, the power output was not the same, the frequencies were not the same, and the electromagnetic environment was not the same.  It was an exercise for the fun of it - and it was great fun for many people.  Nothing more, nothing less.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 07:27:42 PM by Ric Gillespie »
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Chuck Creigh

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Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
« Reply #99 on: July 12, 2015, 08:45:03 PM »

I still have all my ham log books from 1969-1970, but from memory I would bet the Central Pacific at night reception was 40 meters (the second frequency she switched to), which is at its best at night and during the summer, especially over water – if you could handle the lightening static from any storms that were within 40 meter (7 MHz) reception in any direction. It was still usable during the day, but the distances were very reduced. 40 has a skip to it also, so if you are about 10 miles or so away (not sure of that exact distance) it starts to go overhead and cannot be heard again until it comes back down to earth some hundred(s) of miles away (if I remember that distance correctly). And likely why she was not heard from again after she switched to the second frequency of 40 meters. She was now skipping over them. 80 meters essentially has no real initial skip hole, but is not good for as far as 40 since it has to skip too many times to cover the same distance as 40.

If Betty never said anything about having to deal with static, then it is not so likely she would have been listening on 40 meters (7 MHz), due to any weak signal will be over powered by lightening occurring from storms in any direction. Any ham on 40 meters in the good reception months of summer does not forget the numerous loud sudden crashes of lightening static while listening for a weak signal. It is almost unbearable, 80 meters is worse.

Although I chatted with Hawaii on 40 meters a couple times from Minnesota, I knew I got lucky, and was only right before Minnesota sunrise for some reason. Not really possible on 80 meters from Minnesota to Hawaii.

However the coveted 20 meter band had essentially no storm static and could easily reach those distances in day or night during the sun spot cycle peak, which 1937 was at the very peak. I would think that anyone (experienced or not) spinning the receiver dials listening for far away stations would only have really heard them on 20 meters anyway, so likely Betty or other credible listeners had figured this out as 20 meters was the place to look. There is no better distance frequency in July that was heavy used back then.

Many transmitting frequencies were allocated as harmonic frequencies by the FCC so you could use the same expensive transmitting crystal for different bands. And those older transmitters did not yet have such good filtering to block out harmonic or spurious oscillations. So it is “very likely” IMO that Betty and others used 20 meter band and AE’s transmitter was harmonically transmitting on the best frequency possible, at the best possible sun spot cycle year to reach Florida – 20 meters. 20 is the first and strongest harmonic of 40.

The higher even better frequencies for distance like 15 meters went completely dead in the summer, only great in the winter, so 20 meters was it for any long distance in July.

I was very sorry to hear of the ROV problems as I have been reading here for years and this run looked quite hopeful. I’ve found TIGHAR to have integrity in their factual approaches, even in spite of discouragement after discouragement. Skipping over any endorsement of the “National Enquirer” type of approach… Such perseverance is refreshing when it is done with honesty these days.

-Chuck
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Chuck Creigh

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Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
« Reply #100 on: July 14, 2015, 10:26:44 AM »

HARMONICS

Using Amelia’s frequencies:
3.105 MHz, I have been comparing it to the 80 meter ham band
6.210 MHz, been comparing it to 40 meter ham band
12.42 MHz, (harmonic frequency) been comparing it to 20 meter ham band

From my ham radio experience, I’ve always thought the “only” way Betty or others in the USA could have heard AE (especially during the day) would have to be on the 12.42 MHz harmonic frequency. That frequency will easily reach those distances inside the USA day or night. Because 1937 was a peak year of the sunspot 11 year cycle that enables this radio frequency to do so (more on sunspot cycles below). Her two frequencies of 6.210 MHz and 3.105 MHz have drastically reduced distances during the day, and only 6.210 MHz would marginally have that reach only at night if there was not much storm static present that occurs at that frequency during the summer. All other harmonic frequencies above 12.42 MHz go dead in the summer due to no skip until winter.

There is no doubt at all that 12.42 MHz has the capability to carry transmitted radio signals to most of the  USA from Niku with 50 watts or less even with a marginal antenna on a peak year like 1937. Any ham with 20 meter (14 MHz) experience during a peak year should be able to confirm those distances (especially skipping over water). It was extremely common to talk with Europe, Japan, South America, etc for this frequency from USA on peak sunspot years. There used to be ham clubs like the “10 watt club” and the QRP (low wattage) club that did those distances a lot on much less than 50 watts, but only during peak sunspot years. I personally talked to 38 countries all around the world with about 75 watts, 32 countries sent me back confirming QSL post cards I still have. I did it mostly on the 15 meter ham band (a higher frequency than 12.42 MHz and in winter) due to my lower ham license level did not allow me to use this more desired 20 meter band for distance. 20 meters (14 MHz), like 12.42 MHz could be used any time of day or in any season during a peak year for long distance. There really is no question that Amelia’s setup “could be” easily capable of that distance on the harmonic frequency of 12.42 MHz in 1937.

So the real question would be: Did AE’s transmitter transmit on this harmonic frequency? Doing some research yesterday I found this surprisingly to be a good possibility. Here is why.

All transmitters (even modern day transmitters with good filtering) do transmit on these undesired harmonic frequencies, but due to good filtering and “proper transmitter tuning”, these harmonic wattage outputs are very low. Acceptable harmonic output levels are now set by the FCC. But if AE got careless (which it has been said she sometimes did) and did not tune her transmitter properly especially after changing a frequency (or her transmitter was not filtered properly), then her transmitter “most certainly” would have been also transmitting on harmonic frequencies like 12.42 MHz. Depending upon how far out of tune it was could make the harmonics transmit level quite high, according to the below link put out by an ARRL contributing editor. The ARRL would know as well as anyone when it comes to transmitters for frequencies that AE used (which are very close to all the ARRL ham frequency bands they regulate and license).

On the second page of the below link, middle column near the bottom of page it says: “A final word about harmonic radiation is in order. If you mistune the output amplifier of your transmitter (tune it to the wrong frequency), the harmonic output energy level can be quite high”.

A mistuned transmitter causes harmonics

This is “a fact” (not a theory) that applies to all radio transmitters even today, not just ones built in the 1930’s.

Many other factors could have caused AE harmonic transmitting such as, an inadequately designed low pass filter for all the frequencies she used, or bad physical location for that filter inside the transmitter (if there even was a filter), or bad transmitter grounding, bad shielding, etc.

Not considering the transmitter harmonic filtering design or how difficult it might have been to retune (if she even tuned it at all), I would tend to go with this instead: She may have been quite desperate while on the reef and likely didn’t waste the time or the aircraft gas to retune her transmitter each time she changed frequencies, and that would be all it would take to get a stronger 12.42 MHz harmonic. This 12.42 MHz harmonic could come from either the 3.105 MHz or 6.210 MHz frequencies she used. And 12.42 MHz I am quite certain would have been the “only” possible harmonic frequency Betty or others could have heard AE on (especially during the day). I say this from my own past ham experience during a sunspot cycle peak and my past experience with ham bands near AE’s frequencies.

SUNSPOT CYCLES

This link shows the 1937 sunspot cycle peak, and the similar peak in 1969-1970 when I was a very active ham operator when long distance skip was occurring. During low peak years, the long distance skip bands go dead – no skip.

Sunspot cycle graph for the years 1875 to 2013

I learned about various frequencies capabilities from numerous ham contests. Contests were often based upon a number of hours of allocated air time over perhaps a two week contest. Contest score often had to do with the number of contacts made, and the number of different areas contacted. The more areas contacted, the better the score. The only way to do well was one had to know the best frequency and it’s best time of day to try to contact a chosen new area not yet reached (without wasting allocated contest time). I really enjoyed those contests, because I had learned my frequencies well.

So even after all these years, frequencies come into play once again concerning AE because I was only a ham during the sunspot cycle peak years, like 1937 was.

Does this “prove” AE transmitted to the USA during the day and was heard by Betty and others? Nope! But I have no doubt that her setup was capable of it in 1937. And the “potential” that it occurred seems a better possibility than I originally thought it was.

God knows, the perseverance and integrity of TIGHAR already “is” an example for others. Of that I also have no doubt.

-Chuck
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Byron Ake

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Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
« Reply #101 on: July 14, 2015, 02:36:10 PM »

By matching the time in the metadata of each image with the time of GPS coordinates taken on the surface we should be able to trace the approximate trail of the camera and see how close we came to the calculated position of the anomaly. We already know that no airplane wreckage is immediately apparent in the acquired images but neither do we see any obvious geological explanation for the object in the sonar data.  Whether any conclusions can be drawn from the imagery remains to be seen.

Once we have the GPS coordinates plotted so we have some idea of where the photos were taken in relation to the supposed anomaly coordinates I'll make all of the images available for everyone to look at.  We can all play Find The Banjo.

Going back to reply #25 a few days ago, Ric said that a photomosaic could be made using the photos from the Hail Mary dive. That looks like a fun project to try. It also reminded me of another undersea photomosaic that was made in a similar way. It's described in the NOVA special "Nazi Attack on America" http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/military/Nazi-Attack-America.html starting at 40:00 (caution: that part of the video contains a spoiler!) Definitely worth a shot if all the photos could be put in order.

For the hell of it, they also attached a GoPro camera rated to 70 meters.  Predictably it flooded and failed but they were willing to take the chance - any thing to get more pictures.

Has anyone checked the memory card from that camera yet? There must be a way to recover corrupted video files, assuming the camera did survive at least a short time on the bottom.
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
« Reply #102 on: July 14, 2015, 05:01:21 PM »

Tom King and the people on the Fiji Princess did some productive work in a very short time there. What kind of fees and approval from Kiribati were needed by the Fiji Princess/ Betchart people who went ashore and did scuba diving there? Did the Betchart trip cost TIGHAR anything?  Did it need approvals from TIGHAR and/or Kiribati?  Is there a distinction between the "Tourist" and TIGHAR as far as Kiribati is concerned?

From the Daily's a Niku VIII team member used his own hand build ROV and launched it from a skiff. He evidently got 45 minutes of video searching for the Debris Field but could not find it. Could a similar skiff, and maybe a more planned effort, be launched from a future Betchart trip? How was the skiff secured in the Hail Mary effort and in Walt’s ROV search of the Debris Field? 
3971R
 
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 08:57:10 AM by Greg Daspit »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
« Reply #103 on: July 14, 2015, 05:10:44 PM »

Has anyone checked the memory card from that camera yet? There must be a way to recover corrupted video files, assuming the camera did survive at least a short time on the bottom.

We checked the memory card and found that the camera had collected still photos (as it was programmed to do) right up to the time it flooded long before it reached the bottom. We were surprised to recover anything from the memory card.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
« Reply #104 on: July 14, 2015, 06:21:42 PM »

Tom King and the people on the Fiji Princess did some productive work in a very short time there. What kind of fees and approval from Kiribati were needed by the Fiji Princess/ Bechart people who went ashore and did scuba diving there?

Betchart Expeditions had to get a PIPA permit ($200) as did the TIGHAR expedition. They also had to pay airfare to and from Tarawa plus $50/day to have a Kiribati government official aboard - as did the TIGHAR expedition.  Fiji Princess had an Immigration official aboard.  We had a Customs official.  Both were pleasant, educated people in their 30s.  Kiribati also collected a $50 "landing fee" for every tourist who went ashore. No such fee was imposed on our team.

Did the Bechart trip cost TIGHAR anything?

No, if you don't count the time it took us to help and guide the tourists for the one day we were there together.

  Did it need approvals from TIGHAR and/or Kiribati?

Yes, both.

 
Is there a distinction between the "Tourist" and TIGHAR as far as Kiribati is concerned?

Yes.  Most definitely. 

From the Daily's a Niku VIII team member used his own hand build ROV and launched it from a skiff. He evidently got 45 minutes of video searching for the Debris Field but could not find it. Could a similar skiff, and maybe a more planned effort, be launched from a future Bechart trip?

In theory, yes.

How was the skiff secured in the Hail Mary effort and in Walt’s ROV search of the Debris Field?

It wasn't.  The ROV and Hail Mary were "live boated" (ROV-speak for operating from an unsecured, non-dynamic-positioning vessel).
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