TIGHAR

Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: Mark Ramsey on July 02, 2015, 11:32:26 PM

Title: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Mark Ramsey on July 02, 2015, 11:32:26 PM
I thought folks might be interested in a quick summary of the trip to Nikumaroro aboard the Fiji Princess organized by Bechart Expeditions.

We set sail from Port Denarau on Friday, June 19th with 58 passengers excited to make the trip to Niku.  Rather than going directly to Niku
on the route taken by the Nai'a, we sailed to Rotuma, Funafuti and then over to Niku.  This route allowed for the two stops on the way.

While we sailed, Dr. Tom King presented a number of very interesting topics ranging from "Why Niku?" to an explanation of "PISS".

We arrived at Nikumaroro on Wed, June 24th (Fiji time) around 2pm.  Ric boarded the ship and shared highlights of the work done by the
Niku VIII effort and the crew of the Fiji Princess made preparations for expeditions to the island.  Ric and a number of the Tighar expedition
members joined us on the Fiji Princess for dinner.

On Thursday, June 25th, Art Carty led a small group of us from the landing area to the potential Camp Zero areas.  We were joined by Ric and
other Tighar expedition members on the trek across the passage and up the long (& very hot beach) past the Norwich City, the landing zone,
and to the Camp Zero areas.  Since the Tighar expedition team was preparing to leave at the end of the day, we headed back after a bit of
looking at the site.  Another group was led by Dr. King to explore the colonial village area and begin plans for the rest of our visit.  We also had a
group of divers that explored a number of areas, as well as a glass bottom boat that was used for a view onto the shallow reef area.

On Friday, June 26th, after the departure of the Nai'a several Tighar members on board led groups to areas for exploration.  Dr. Tom King worked with
the group to set up a search grid in the colonial village area just beyond the landing area, and another team focused on investigating the shoreline of
the village.  Rachel King found a hair piece that appears to have been constructed of aircraft aluminum in the village search area.  I was part of the team
exploring back from the beach, and discovered 4 graves that had not been logged previously.  Dawn Johnson used the newly discovered graves as a
source for her project using the soil for canine investigation.  These graves were established by those in the colonial village, but had not been previously
identified.

During Sat and Sun, the treks and searches were expanded.  Dr. Tom Roberts led four teams to the Seven Site for the opportunity to see the Ren tree, Skull hole,
Buka forest area, water container and other areas searched extensively by Tighar in previous expeditions.  Several teams searched both sides of the Buraki
Passage for the orally reported door in that area....but no door was found.  Another team made the trek back to the Camp Zero area for more searching.  A very
large area in the colonial village site was cleared and searched....producing a number of artifacts, including another hair item made from aluminum and additional
bottles in the store area.  The divers made dives at the Candy Jar site at the north of the island, at the Norwich City, and at the blocks on the beach.

Over the four days, we experienced a variety of weather ranging from the very hot on our first day, to heavy rains, to a nice overcast day.

We sailed from Niku Sunday afternoon, June 28th head back to Fiji.  The seas were a bit rough, but the style of the Fiji Princess handled it very well.  We planned to
stop at Funtuna, but had to settle for a short 1-hour cruise through the harbor due to high seas at the wharf.  We continued on back to Port Denarau arriving on Thursday,
July 2nd around 5pm.  Many of us headed directly to the airport to catch the 9:40pm flight to LAX.  Imagine our surprise when we ran into Ric and 8 of the Tighar expedition
team at the airport and on our same flight back to the US.

Here is a video that crams 4 1/2 days at Niku into 50mins:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h8DXqmzEPY

Mark
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Laura Gridley on July 03, 2015, 02:25:14 AM
Thank you so much for posting this summary! 
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Dawn Johnson on July 03, 2015, 04:49:27 AM
Thanks Mark, great summary. I can't wait to show your video to my family! It was wonderful having you and Trina aboard!
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Randy Conrad on July 03, 2015, 07:47:30 AM
Thanks Mark! Its really neat that you were able to do a video and especially beings this is the 78th anniversary of her disappearance! I hope we will be able to piece some more pieces of the puzzle with the searches on the island along with the potential finds in the ROV search!
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Paul March on July 03, 2015, 08:57:14 AM
Wonderful video Mark. Thank you!
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Chris Murphy on July 03, 2015, 03:11:46 PM
Amazing video!  I almost felt like I was there!

Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Krystal McGinty-Carter on July 03, 2015, 05:21:00 PM
THANK YOU for posting this video! The island, despite its formidability, really is beautiful. I wouldn't be able to contain my excitement seeing it appear in the distance.  (That is, if you could pry the Prozac, water wings, and life preserver from my terrified fingers!)  Thanks for taking time to show the birds.  I love birds. The baby looks like a White Tern. Absolutely adorable.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Mark Ramsey on July 03, 2015, 08:21:51 PM
From the "birding" folks on the cruise, the birds under the bushes, both the adult and baby, are tropical birds.  The birds sitting out in the open on their eggs are Boobies.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Randy Conrad on July 04, 2015, 08:27:10 AM
WOW! Awesome Video Mark!!! I have to be honest...had to take several naps while watching this! One of the things I noticed which I found very interesting is the stepping stone trail at the 10:13 mark of the video. Hope someone can tell me more on this! Also, the dive team had way too much fun! Loved the clarity of the video and the depth of the dive, and most importantly how much it shows we need to protect our reefs in the world! Overall, this video is a catalyst of things to come! Thanks again for all your hard work!
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 04, 2015, 08:31:44 AM
I thoroughly enjoyed watching the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h8DXqmzEPY) too--I listened to most of it a second time, as well.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Bob Smith on July 04, 2015, 11:49:49 AM
Video was great! I love the boobies! The little guy is my favorite. I think he was looking for something too, wasn't he? I don't think he  found anything either! Well, you never know. Ric may be saving the best for last!
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Greg Daspit on July 04, 2015, 01:52:04 PM
Thanks for posting. Nothing like lots of eyeballs when searching. Loved the video. It provides a better understanding of how difficult the island is to search. Including for the castaway that explored it and the very short 1937 aerial search.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Mark Ramsey on July 04, 2015, 03:11:08 PM
Randy.....the stone path at 10:13 mark was created by Lori Fox and a few of the others to mark the entrance to the four graves I discovered hidden in the bushes.  I found one grave by seeing the headstone in the scavola.  When I looked closer, I found three adult graves, and what appears to be one child grave.  They are about 20 yards back from the beach and about 50 yards north of the landing area.  We spent over an hour clearing the area and looking for artifacts.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Jeff Scott on July 05, 2015, 11:26:43 AM
Nicely done video. I have a question on the dive location. Was this in the lagoon or somewhere off the reef?

I was struck by the size and multitude of boulders, or perhaps they are slabs of coral. In any case, I've suspected a similar explanation for the sonar anomaly.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Bill Lloyd on July 05, 2015, 04:42:43 PM
Outstanding Video and the music is great. I have been observing this project for several years now and this video is the best presentation of the island I have seen. I think that I can now get a better sense of the difficulty of seeing low flying search planes.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 05, 2015, 05:29:22 PM
Great summary and video Mark!  I'll admit that I had my doubts about how your group would fare on Niku but you guys did a great job and made some potentially important discoveries.  My hat is off to you all. 
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ted G Campbell on July 05, 2015, 05:40:22 PM
Ric,
Great comment!  Now what about the $1000's the rest of us spent what do we get?
Ted Campbell
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: richie conroy on July 05, 2015, 06:09:50 PM
Welcome back Ric and Co

Boy you're in for some flak haha  ;)
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Bill Lloyd on July 05, 2015, 06:39:36 PM
I would not lose any sleep over the "armchair hindsight critiques from people who are not encumbered with information". Fedex owed you more than a weeks notice that they were not going to sponsor the shipping. I have used Fedex for years and the service is great, but their rates have almost doubled in the past year or so.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Mark Gillespie on July 06, 2015, 06:29:11 AM
Oh, the unbearable silence  :)
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 06, 2015, 06:31:16 AM
Ric,
Great comment!  Now what about the $1000's the rest of us spent what do we get?
Ted Campbell

Don't worry Ted.  We have hundreds of photos and hours of video from this expedition that we'll be sharing with everyone.  For starters, Mark Smith is putting together a video sampler of drone footage.  It will knock your socks off. 
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 06, 2015, 06:42:30 AM
Welcome back Ric and Co

Boy you're in for some flak haha  ;)

I'm no stranger to flak.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Monty Fowler on July 06, 2015, 08:09:54 AM
I have the aerial tour of Niku DVD, so I already have a good idea of what the island looks like from that angle.

I'm interested in one thing - The Photo.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 06, 2015, 08:29:23 AM
I'm interested in one thing - The Photo.

And what Photo would that be?
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: JNev on July 06, 2015, 11:39:50 AM
The one you're holding us all in suspense over, the capture from the submerged 'spider eye' (from many cameras) with the interesting stuff / lack of geo-anomaly to explain the anomaly, of course!

You guys pulled out all the stops to overcome that ROV glitch so hopes run high, of course!

I'm like Monty, done seen the pretty island, just show me the wreck and I'll be in Oxford on the next bus to kiss your favorite horse right on the... Well, I'll bring donuts, how about that?

...now you're being coy, bad boy, you're sitting on something cool, aren't you???   MUST is!
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 06, 2015, 12:28:20 PM
...now you're being coy, bad boy, you're sitting on something cool, aren't you???

I'm not sitting on anything cool.  On the contrary.  I'm sitting on a hot seat of criticism from Facebook trolls - including you.  I really didn't expect that.

There was no "spider eye."  In a last ditch attempt to get some imagery of the anomaly area the ROV team (Ron Bernier, John Clauss and Walt Holm) rigged the HD camera from the ROV on a line with the laser-scaler and a dive-light flash attached. For the hell of it, they also attached a GoPro camera rated to 70 meters.  Predictably it flooded and failed but they were willing to take the chance - any thing to get more pictures. They set the HD camera to take still shots every 5 seconds.  (They wanted 2 seconds but it took the flash 5 seconds to recharge.)  The plan was to go to the supposed anomaly coordinates in the skiff, set the contraption running, and lower it down.  The problem was figuring out when to stop lowering. If they waited until the line went slack, the lens of the camera would be resting on the bottom.  The solution was to add a 1.5 meter length of line below the camera with a dive weight on the end.  That way, when the line went slack the camera should be 1.5 meters off the bottom and in a good position to take photos.  They would then take in the line enough to get the dive weight off the bottom, move the skiff a bit, and drop it down again.

It was crude but ingenious and it mostly worked. They captured 170 high definition images of the bottom in the vicinity of the anomaly.   The high-definition photos are of excellent quality as you can see from the attached example. Many also overlap so we may be able to create a partial mosaic of the bottom. In the attached sample photo you can see the two red dots generated by the laser scaler mounted on the camera.  The dots are a set distance apart - 2.5 inches (64.2mm) - no matter how far away the subject is, so the size of observed features can be measured.  By matching the time in the metadata of each image with the time of GPS coordinates taken on the surface we should be able to trace the approximate trail of the camera and see how close we came to the calculated position of the anomaly. We already know that no airplane wreckage is immediately apparent in the acquired images but neither do we see any obvious geological explanation for the object in the sonar data.  Whether any conclusions can be drawn from the imagery remains to be seen.

Once we have the GPS coordinates plotted so we have some idea of where the photos were taken in relation to the supposed anomaly coordinates I'll make all of the images available for everyone to look at.  We can all play Find The Banjo.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Bob Harmon on July 06, 2015, 12:54:06 PM
In the attached sample photo you can see the two red dots generated by the laser scaler mounted on the camera.
I wonder if that fish went crazy when the laser dots moved. ;D
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 06, 2015, 12:58:26 PM
I wonder if that fish went crazy when the laser dots moved. ;D

He appears in several of the images.  He apparently thought the rig was interesting.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Bob Smith on July 06, 2015, 01:21:52 PM
Wow! That's a pretty fancy fish. But he has no resemblance to a wheel or wing. Neither do the 2 red dots. You could have at least put a hook on the end of the sinker so we could have him for lunch. Or was fishing prohibited on this trip?
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 06, 2015, 01:34:02 PM
Or was fishing prohibited on this trip?

The Fijian crew did lots of fishing with the permission of the Kiribati representative. 
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Scott C. Mitchell on July 06, 2015, 01:40:33 PM
The camera rig with the extended weighted end was a wonderful improvisation.  And putting the twin lasers to register scale was an inspired idea.  Bravo, TIGHAR team!   As Theodore Roosevelt said, "Do what you can with what you've got, where you are!"


Scott
#3292
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Bill Lloyd on July 06, 2015, 02:55:22 PM
I'm not sitting on anything cool.  On the contrary.  I'm sitting on a hot seat of criticism from Facebook trolls - including you.  I really didn't expect that.

 Facebook seems to bring out the harshest criticism of all. Those trolls are vicious, especially the TIGHAR members.
 
Over time I have been critical of the TIGHAR operation and the accounting of finances and events, but not on this issue. FedEx flat did you a job and it was totally unnecessary. They could have went ahead and shipped the equipment that you needed and billed you for payment. This would allow you to have a reasonable chance for success.  I think that you have explained it quite thoroughly.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Greg Daspit on July 06, 2015, 03:18:07 PM
The timing of the FedEx decision was unfortunate. If their decision was made a week later(and they had kept their sponsorship), the shipment would have already been on its way, and if it was made sooner, there may have been time to raise the extra funds.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Bob Smith on July 06, 2015, 03:31:12 PM
Actually, the cameras on a string and lasers is probably worked better than the ROV would have or has! I can't find any real good video or pictures from the past dives..
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Matt Revington on July 06, 2015, 03:42:27 PM
Yes a great job in what must of been an incredibly frustrating situation.

Any banjos down there?
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Bob Smith on July 06, 2015, 04:06:55 PM
Next trip (if there is one) ditch the ROV and bring a deep sea camera and longer rope. Or hire more fish!
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Jerry Germann on July 06, 2015, 07:27:15 PM
Very, Very nice photo. Look forward to viewing others. As mentioned in the past, one should try to avoid seeing things, that may just be coral, or otherwise, but upon viewing this photo, my eye was immediatly drawn to the object I circled. Any thoughts on what this may be?
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 06, 2015, 07:32:01 PM
Any thoughts on what this may be?

Sharp eyes.  Yes, that's the dive weight on the end of the bottom-detector line.  You'll see it in many of the photos.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Monty Fowler on July 07, 2015, 03:05:29 AM
Might be a good idea to note the dive weight somehow, if it's appearing in a number of photos. To avoid too many banjo finds, as it were.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: JNev on July 07, 2015, 06:01:50 AM
...now you're being coy, bad boy, you're sitting on something cool, aren't you???

I'm not sitting on anything cool.  On the contrary.  I'm sitting on a hot seat of criticism from Facebook trolls - including you.  I really didn't expect that.

There was no "spider eye."  In a last ditch attempt to get some imagery of the anomaly area the ROV team (Ron Bernier, John Clauss and Walt Holm) rigged the HD camera from the ROV on a line with the laser-scaler and a dive-light flash attached. For the hell of it, they also attached a GoPro camera rated to 70 meters.  Predictably it flooded and failed but they were willing to take the chance - any thing to get more pictures. They set the HD camera to take still shots every 5 seconds.  (They wanted 2 seconds but it took the flash 5 seconds to recharge.)  The plan was to go to the supposed anomaly coordinates in the skiff, set the contraption running, and lower it down.  The problem was figuring out when to stop lowering. If they waited until the line went slack, the lens of the camera would be resting on the bottom.  The solution was to add a 1.5 meter length of line below the camera with a dive weight on the end.  That way, when the line went slack the camera should be 1.5 meters off the bottom and in a good position to take photos.  They would then take in the line enough to get the dive weight off the bottom, move the skiff a bit, and drop it down again.

It was crude but ingenious and it mostly worked. They captured 170 high definition images of the bottom in the vicinity of the anomaly.   The high-definition photos are of excellent quality as you can see from the attached example. Many also overlap so we may be able to create a partial mosaic of the bottom. In the attached sample photo you can see the two red dots generated by the laser scaler mounted on the camera.  The dots are a set distance apart - 2.5 inches (64.2mm) - no matter how far away the subject is, so the size of observed features can be measured.  By matching the time in the metadata of each image with the time of GPS coordinates taken on the surface we should be able to trace the approximate trail of the camera and see how close we came to the calculated position of the anomaly. We already know that no airplane wreckage is immediately apparent in the acquired images but neither do we see any obvious geological explanation for the object in the sonar data.  Whether any conclusions can be drawn from the imagery remains to be seen.

Once we have the GPS coordinates plotted so we have some idea of where the photos were taken in relation to the supposed anomaly coordinates I'll make all of the images available for everyone to look at.  We can all play Find The Banjo.

Thanks for the straight answer on the limits of what you are 'sitting on' in terms of what was managed to be captured, and otherwise.

As to 'trolls' - all who criticize or disagree are not nessecarily not trying to be a friend.  The urge to promote, it appears, can be blinding, Ric.  Take that as you will - but I yearn for you to seek to find a path to the very soundest paths of science and self-critical analysis instead of resorting to labeling critical speakers as trolls and simply cleansing your sites of distasteful comments.  That would be the more rigorous path, and TIGHAR seems to need it very badly.

All the best -
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 07, 2015, 07:14:28 AM
I yearn for you to seek to find a path to the very soundest paths of science and self-critical analysis instead of resorting to labeling critical speakers as trolls and simply cleansing your sites of distasteful comments.  That would be the more rigorous path, and TIGHAR seems to need it very badly.

You posted on the TIGHAR Facebook page:
"Sounds like good reasons to have put this one off until it could be more adequately funded and resourced. Oh well, should be grateful for all they made possible before. At least the cruise ship visit worked out, there's that."

Sarcastic comments that ignore facts that I had already provided is trollism.  I expected better from you. I will continue to ban trolls and haters.  I try my best to welcome informed comment and criticism but I see no reason why TIGHAR should tolerate or respond to hatred and lies on our own Facebook page.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 07, 2015, 07:36:18 AM
That would be the more rigorous path, and TIGHAR seems to need it very badly.

If your perception of what TIGHAR needs is colored by the firestorm of criticism on Facebook you may be comforted to know that most of the negative comments have been posted by people who are neither TIGHAR members nor contributors.  The TIGHAR board members, the expedition team members, the researchers, the major contributors, and the TIGHAR membership in general have seen setbacks before and are in it for the long haul.  The mood among the team members at the end of the expedition was (to me) surprisingly buoyant and eager to press on.  All they could talk about was "next time." 
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Eddie Rose on July 07, 2015, 07:48:25 AM
Maybe some criticism and outside objective performance review would be helpful. Those are things that lead to improvement.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Bob Smith on July 07, 2015, 07:59:35 AM
There are facts, and there are facts. Depending on who is defining happenings as "facts", maybe there aren't as many facts as one would think. I once worked with people wanting to get their inventions on the market and in front of the public. Not as a promoter, but as a writer, composer and engineering analyst to determine if the "invention" they loved was fit for exposure in a scientific sense, and was actually something worthy of claiming what the inventor thought the invention was capable of doing. It will come as no surprise that every one who had an idea thought it was the best thing since sliced bread, and my group was wrong if we decided it would be difficult, if not impossible to do what they thought it would do! Criticism is available and sometimes rampant in all new ventures and untested avenues where one person or group presents a hypothesis and another person or group is able to view that hypothesis. In this "free" society, there are no two people, or no two minds that are alike. But that's OK isn't it. You agreed that someone might disagree when you, as TIGHAR, started the FORUM. Sure, there are and should be RULES. But sometimes the reason for a forum is to have opinions presented, whether the opinions support your "facts" or not. "Read them and weep!" I heard someone say. I think if you take the opinions as opinions of your opin ion, you will find there really isn't as much hate mail as you think. We're just expressing an opinion, sometimes not very informed, perhaps, but an opinion. That's our way of saying thanks for the forum and a chance to be involved with TIGHAR.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 07, 2015, 08:46:23 AM
Maybe some criticism and outside objective performance review would be helpful. Those are things that lead to improvement.

Good Lord.  I don't recall any lack of criticism. As for outside objective performance review whom do you recommend?  This expedition was funded primarily by the team members themselves and members of the TIGHAR board of directors.  They had the best reason to be objective - they had "skin in the game. " They were intimately aware of the decisions made and the challenges met as they came up.  They were, and are, wholly supportive. 
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Bob Smith on July 07, 2015, 02:25:08 PM
When someone decides "objectively", they're just thinking about the facts, not their own feelings. When you ask for an "objective opinion", you want to hear the opinion of someone who doesn't already have strong feelings about a subject, and who won't gain or lose anything because of the decision.
(From the internet)
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 07, 2015, 02:29:14 PM
When someone decides "objectively", they're just thinking about the facts, not their own feelings. When you ask for an "objective opinion", you want to hear the opinion of someone who doesn't already have strong feelings about a subject, and who won't gain or lose anything because of the decision.
(From the internet)

If it's on the internet is must be true.  What you're referring to is asking someone "doesn't have a dog in the fight."  Always a good idea. 
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Oskar Erich Heinrich Haberlandt on July 07, 2015, 11:19:09 PM
To me it seems there is a little more criticism as usually because there are some people who seem to be rather disappointed. Well, maybe the expectations were too high. But I can understand them, and I am disappointed too. Three years of waiting for Niku VIII, and then everything seemed to go wrong.The biggest problem was the ROV-desaster, as ist seems. Who is responsible? Why could it happen?--But I'm sure the team did its best. Ric, thank you for trying!
Oskar Haberlandt
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Laura Gridley on July 07, 2015, 11:36:46 PM
I've just gotta throw in something here--I dated a man for many years who works in the entertainment industry, doing a ton of filming on and in the ocean.  The amount of planning that goes into getting footage in much less trying conditions than Niku (that is--much nearer major countries/cities, not as deep, etc) is enormous.  And even then, with meticulous planning in generally "easier" conditions, it is inevitable that something goes wrong.  You can almost guarantee it.  Equipment fails, even when provided and run by experienced professionals.  I don't think at this point there is any way to assume that all will go well when searching in such a remote, rough environment in the middle of the ocean no less.  Notoriously difficult.  I commend Ric and the rest of the crew.  You do what you can, improvise when you can, hope for some good luck as well.  It sounds like you guys worked with what you had in very hard circumstances. 

Edited to add: I never would have really thought it would be as hard as it is in those environments if I hadn't witnessed the difficulties over and over again through my ex.  I think Ric and crew know this from their years of experience.  But if you haven't actually seen it happen to some of the most experienced, professional, and highly equipped people in the world on a regular basis, you might be inclined to be more critical.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Monty Fowler on July 08, 2015, 07:16:04 AM
Not everyone who disagrees with you is a troll. By the same token, not everyone who agrees enthusiastically with you is a friend. Reasonableness at all times helps to smooth the waters between the two extremes.

And that's all I've got to say about that.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: JNev on July 08, 2015, 07:51:14 AM
Wise words, Monty, so very, very true.  My very best friends have turned out to be those with the guts to criticize me when it was needed - they cared enough to call it as they saw it when I needed to hear it.  They weren't haters or trolls, but people who saw something worthy enough in me to bother risking feelings to tell it as they saw it.

Laura, the sea and swashbuckling filming is far from being the only harsh or remote environment in the world where planning and execution count, go wrong, create consequences and opportunities for heroic recoveries, I promise you.  Some of the elements you describe lend some dramatic contrast to the arm-chair coloring that can so easily be laid upon the non-attending critic - but the truth is, there are many armchairs filled with thinking people who are well familiar with project planning, challenges known from previous efforts and who bear scars themselves from mishaps and tough recoveries.

TIGHAR has to make choices: she can seek adoration and funding based on the emotion of those who see the heroics despite the failures - and not outgrow this level of effort she's in, or she can invite the critical thinkers to contribute and learn and truly grow.

My life is freckled with people who can attest that at times Jeff backbit or protested when he was hearing things he didn't want to hear about performance or planning; I'll wager one can also find more than an equal number who would attest that Jeff learned as well and came to know who his real friends were.  I will attest that my life is the better for that.

It comes down to what TIGHAR would be: a repeater of missions Niku I - VIII on funds raised by emotional appeal, or a hard-headed, rock ribbed outfit willing to remake itself on the best lessons it can learn from those who care about what she might be - including perhaps embracing wider, deeper academic support for a broader, deeper search - if only...

And with that, I will leave "if only" to the eye of the beholder.

And I will sign myself irascible, but caring - and never the willing troll.   Reagan and Gorbachov were great men to punch through concrete and steel with their political fists, however imperfect the world remains; must ordinary men and women in a historic search be any less among each other?  One has to be willing to let the dramatic, emotion-based promotion fade behind the discipline of project planning and science to do it.  That's all I'm going to say about that.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Bob Smith on July 08, 2015, 09:11:16 AM
Your last paragraph, Jeff, especially is a winner!  "One has to be willing to let the dramatic, emotion-based promotion fade behind the discipline of project planning and science to do it."  (underline: project planning and science)                                         And criticism is good, especially when it comes from friends. Many projects have been scrapped because of a lack of knowledge and understanding of project planning and science, as well as because some so called friends were too afraid of critisising for fear of losing a friend!
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: James G. Stoveken on July 08, 2015, 10:10:44 AM
My very best friends have turned out to be those with the guts to criticize me when it was needed - they cared enough to call it as they saw it when I needed to hear it.  They weren't haters or trolls, but people who saw something worthy enough in me to bother risking feelings to tell it as they saw it.

OK Jeff, you opened the door so I'll walk through.  IMHO you have a gift for writing.  And the words seem like they flow freely for you, unlike my infrequent posts which always seem to take me too long to write.  Also, I think I tend to agree with much of what you have to say although at times I'm not entirely sure.  But geez, Jeff!  This is a research forum, not an Advanced English course.  Do all your posts have to read like they were written by Shakespeare himself?  Surely you can self edit the chafe from the wheat and do us all a favor.

There.  I said it.  We don't need to be "very best friends" but I'd be happy to have a beer with you some day!

Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Oskar Erich Heinrich Haberlandt on July 08, 2015, 10:19:27 AM
Maybe I missed it, but what about the debris field? Did the scubas go down to it ? I think, it is much more interesting than the "anomaly". I read, they only would dive if there is no other way to check it (dangerous!), but then.....what happened?
Oskar Haberlandt
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Don Dollinger on July 08, 2015, 10:44:54 AM
Maybe I missed it, but what about the debris field? Did the scubas go down to it ? I think, it is much more interesting than the "anomaly". I read, they only would dive if there is no other way to check it (dangerous!), but then.....what happened?
Oskar Haberlandt

Reread the expedition notes from 23 June.  It states "We could not re-locate the fender target. The focus is now on the anomaly."  The fender was part of the debris field.

LTM,
Don

Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Oskar Erich Heinrich Haberlandt on July 08, 2015, 10:48:23 AM
Thank you, Don!
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Monty Fowler on July 08, 2015, 11:41:05 AM
TIGHAR's daily reports have indicated that nothing substantive was found by the scuba search. Nothing substantive was found by the land search. The verdict is still out on the Hail Mary deep water search.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Greg Daspit on July 08, 2015, 11:47:35 AM
The “fender” in the debris field reminds me of the 2012 Niku VII expedition and how technical problems limited the search, yet  strong evidence was collected and not seen at first. A possible high profile tire(what would that be doing on the Norwich City?). The “fender” shape I think resembles the leading edge of the wing in the nacelle, and think the possible pulley next to it might have been hung up by control cables that went thru little holes in it.  I see three other objects that resemble control cable guide wheels near it. The possible tire, pulley, guide wheels and leading edge of a wing all suggest nacelle guts to me.  And below this debris, in a line with the currents and gravity is a sonar anomaly the size of the fuselage. This was also not called out at first until Richie did, “Richie’s anomaly”. If these are pieces of the plane, then there could be a spread out debris field running down the slope in the vicinity. This possible debris could be in the images that were obtained from Niku VIII.  Where the GPS data puts the Niku VIII ”Hail Mary” images is important.

 If the fuselage is at 600’ and nacelle/ landing gear debris is at 200’, uphill and slightly north, then what does that suggest for a possible break up? Did a break up on the surface occur and some pieces land on the ledge at 200’ feet  and over what period of time?  My impression is the debris field at 200’ has been there a long time and seems encrusted and partially buried. How the plane might have broken up and deteriorated could influence what search method is used or explain how difficult it could be to search for. I also have questions about how much coral changes there have been at 200’, so I am interested what data the hand built ROV might have obtained and what the dive team observed in what depths they could explore.

 I’m  also looking forward to pictures of the artifacts that the Fiji Princess trip found and can’t wait to see the drone video. I think these types of videos provide a better understanding of the island and therefore a castaway hypothesis.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Bob Smith on July 08, 2015, 12:24:37 PM
Suspenseful, to say the least, Greg! But I disagree on the pulleys and wire theory and I'll stick with my theory of a fender, wheel and handlebars theory of a 1929 Harley Davidson bike. There was a lot of these attached to vehicles as half tracks and many more were used as fast tranporters as  a single unit. Could have been dumped after a mishap or coral ripped the tires to shreds.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: JNev on July 08, 2015, 01:23:28 PM
My very best friends have turned out to be those with the guts to criticize me when it was needed - they cared enough to call it as they saw it when I needed to hear it.  They weren't haters or trolls, but people who saw something worthy enough in me to bother risking feelings to tell it as they saw it.

OK Jeff, you opened the door so I'll walk through.  IMHO you have a gift for writing.  And the words seem like they flow freely for you, unlike my infrequent posts which always seem to take me too long to write.  Also, I think I tend to agree with much of what you have to say although at times I'm not entirely sure.  But geez, Jeff!  This is a research forum, not an Advanced English course.  Do all your posts have to read like they were written by Shakespeare himself?  Surely you can self edit the chafe from the wheat and do us all a favor.

There.  I said it.  We don't need to be "very best friends" but I'd be happy to have a beer with you some day!

I'm not clear on what's not to be understood, James, but if you'd like the thumbnail version it could be written as follows:

"Can the suspense over 'interesting things seen' and just tell us 'no idea if anything worthwhile seen'" be cut off?   Likewise, out with the sympathies and drama of 'it's so tough out there' and get on with a more Vinegar Joe Stilwell-like "I maintain we screwed that one up but we're going to figure out why and how and fix it" - as an organization, not just Ric on the spot.

Here are a few starting observations:

- The environment at Niku is well known after many trips; what was so harsh about it that it caused a mother board to fail in the one ROV?
- Why would only one ROV be taken into such a critical, remote environment?  Was it the right ROV with enough juice to handle conditions there (currents)?  Taking only one multiplies the risk of failure many times - how was that decision made, by whom, and how will it happen differently in the future?
- Was it a FedEx backout that so limited shipping that only one ROV was decided on?  Why weren't resources like FedEx consulted earlier if late news was the problem (did FedEx reneg, or was their new policy simply not known because they were taken for granted?)

I could go on, these are just examples.  They are not meant to criticize individuals or cast blame, but to step around the soft sympathies we all may feel but which are useless if a meaningful, hard-nosed search is the intent. 

Many right here in this forum might get aboard better if this were a more open discussion, and a surprising amount of information might flow.  Yes we all know things fail; yes we know Niku is remote (biggest challenge I can see) and harsh (so is the Georgia coast) - so knowing those those things, what was done about them? 
What was not done about them? 
What should be done about them?

I recognize that Ric's on the hot seat.  Back to the Stillwell answer - own it and build the next one better and tell us why it will be, or shrivel.  These expeditions must be far more about nuts and bolts refinement (or should be) than promotion (IMO).  Corporate due diligence should demand that.

Is that a bit more direct, James?

Call me a troll if you wish, but somewhere here I've read "credibility is everything" and that TIGHAR puts science first.  I merely invite that to be At the core here, but I've also been told a time or two that the forum is not the place of real business.  I realize it cannot wholly be THE place of business, but if it's not at all, then many of us have wasted a lot of time.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 08, 2015, 04:54:55 PM
It comes down to what TIGHAR would be: a repeater of missions Niku I - VIII on funds raised by emotional appeal...

I won't even begin....
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Bob Smith on July 08, 2015, 08:43:14 PM
It looks like TIGHAR has only proven that people from a cruise ship were treated to an expeditionary thrill of witnessing history and loved it!  They've also proven the trip to the island can be unpredictable and dangerous, and that in the face of unpredicted hardship and failure of equipment and plans people can come up with ideas on how to pass the time and save a little face on an extremely complicated situation. But weren't they supposed to know that and learn from trips in the past? OK. Let's try something new. I mean something really new!
  1. Let's say we get a different boat (or ship) and plan to stock it with what we need to do the job we really need to do: this may break some hearts and we would miss old Nai'a, but we need a bigger boat.. because... we need bigger and better equipment, and two of some things incase one BREAKS DOWN!?
  2. Let's plan to do something really earthshaking, and find something that shows up on deep water instruments, sonar or other electronic devices that show a large metal object in  deep water! If we find something in more shallow water, that's OK too. But shoot for the big s tuff!
  3. Let's talk to other people who might want to help and who we can find evidence of actually being good at it with proven knowledge of methods and equipment needed to do what we want to do. We (TIGHAR) can't be the first and only people on earth who have ever wanted to do this.
  4. Let's leave the amateurs out of this. This is a job for professionals. Let them help us plan and share experiences so we can better know what path to take.

 THere's more of course, and you must get the idea, and have heard it before! I'm just an amateur, and a newby on the Forum, but all that's been proven from my observation is that nothing has been proven! Maybe Fred and Amelia were NEVER here.. we can't even prove that!  But, I'm pretty sure  that if they were ever on Nikumaroro they wouldn't be standing around waving a red flag and they would MOST LIKELY not leave a lot of evidence on top of the island even if they were alive for a time... I mean the big stuff.? Isn't it more likely they and the airplane ended at the bottom of the ocean, or at least a lower level. Just because the equipment more easily available goes to500 or 600 feet doesn't mean  the search area should be limited to that level. The equipment may be the wrong equipment! Go for the big struff. Get more money, better funding ideas, better promoters, better sponsers, whatever it takes, and don't go on another axpedition until we have the time and the money to plan it right!!
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 08, 2015, 09:46:39 PM
  1. Let's say we get a different boat (or ship) and plan to stock it with what we need to do the job we really need to do: this may break some hearts and we would miss old Nai'a, but we need a bigger boat.. because... we need bigger and better equipment, and two of some things incase one BREAKS DOWN!?

Maybe the Ka’Imikai-o-Kanaloa? (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku7/niku7expedition.html#ship)

Maybe equipped with two commercial grade search vehicles (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku7/niku7expedition.html#technology)?

Maybe with a great big budget raised by a world-class fundraiser?

Maybe with a three-person camera crew on board to produce a two-hour special (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,227.msg1835.html#msg1835)?

Nah.  TIGHAR really doesn't want to go big.  One fellow thought that Ric just wants to keep raising money without finding anything--even conspiring with other TIGHARs to keep the fact that the plane has been definitively found.

Quote
I'm just an amateur, and a newby on the Forum,

Ah. 

Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Bob Smith on July 08, 2015, 10:30:55 PM
Yes Marty, in answer to your questions. Why is Niku getting so cheap! NikuVII seemed to get much more accomplished  than VIII. and without all the "pleasure cruise" atmosphere. Am I wrong?
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 09, 2015, 04:55:55 AM
Yes Marty, in answer to your questions. Why is Niku getting so cheap!

If you are willing to do a little work, you may be able to find the discussion of again using a big boat with big ROVs that would cost big bucks for this most recent expedition.

No bucks, no Buck Rogers.

The ROV they took should have been sufficient for studying the anomaly.

TIGHAR lost a major benefactor unexpectedly a week or so before the expedition.  Therefore, it could not afford to ship the backup ROV.  Therefore, as things turned out, they did not get exactly what they wanted.

That's life with people and with things that break.

There is no "scientific method" by which such frustrations can be avoided.  This is not a matter of pure logic, mathematics, physics, chemistry, or biology.  Those are the sciences that have some methods that can produce reliable and repeatable results in controlled experiments.

I estimate that Ric has led more than 50 research expeditions in his lifetime.  I don't understand what "professionals" people think are available who could do a better job than he has in organizing and leading these expeditions.  No one knows Niku better than he does.  The only candidates are the people who have followed him there.

Yes, hindsight is twenty-twenty vision.  Any Monday-morning quarterback can imagine how things should have been done after Ric tells the story of what went wrong.  They really should bookmark this page (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator/Captain-Hindsight) to help them present their invaluable insights to the waiting world.


Quote
NikuVII seemed to get much more accomplished  than VIII. and without all the "pleasure cruise" atmosphere. Am I wrong?

Did you actually read about the big ship, the big systems, and the big budget on Niku VII? 

What part of "we could not raise the funds to do that again" don't you understand?
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Oskar Erich Heinrich Haberlandt on July 09, 2015, 04:58:34 AM
Marty, I guess, TIGHAR has to go big or it will never succeed. Finding a really BIG SPONSOR will be the only way to find the remains of the plane (if AE was ever there)
GELD REGIERT DIE WELT! Money makes the world go round!
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Dale O. Beethe on July 09, 2015, 05:01:16 AM
TIGHAR can only use what they can raise the money to do.  If I'm not mistaken, the original intent for this trip was to have a manned submersible to investigate the slope.  Unfortunately, the funds weren't there to do that.  In a perfect world, some benevolent billionaire would step forward and underwrite whatever equipment was needed with the understanding he wouldn't sue if results were not what he wanted.  I understand such billionaires are fairly difficult to find.  In the real world, you do what you can with what you can pay for.  (TIGHAR has had the misfortune to be victimized by a malfunctioning ROV not once, but TWICE.  I can only imagine how frustrating that has to be.)
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Bob Smith on July 09, 2015, 07:44:02 AM
"Did you actually read about the big ship, the big systems, and the big budget on Niku VII? " You asked.
Yes, Marty. Sorry if I hit a nerve.  "could not" as in could not raise those kinds of funds again, is not in my vocabulary. TIGHAR may have to wait a little while longer, or operate a little differently, but I believe if its really worth going after, the funds can be found. The exploration of anything may be stunted, but must not be determined or defined by the amount of money needed. Add up the total amount of money used on all the expeditions to Nikumaroro: Must be a tidy sum!
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Eddie Rose on July 09, 2015, 07:50:21 AM
If the environment is so unforgiving, and the task so technically challenging, surely outsourcing the job of imaging the sea floor to an experienced professional outfit makes more sense? A company with a reputation to protect that can overcome problems and deliver results. You get what you pay for.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 09, 2015, 08:26:00 AM
A public forum is a wonderful thing to behold.  Anyone can provide expert advice without having the slightest idea of what they're talking about.

"If the environment is so unforgiving, and the task so technically challenging, surely outsourcing the job of imaging the sea floor to an experienced professional outfit makes more sense? A company with a reputation to protect that can overcome problems and deliver results. You get what you pay for."

That is exactly what TIGHAR has done on each of the four expeditions in which we have done deep water underwater surveys. In 1991 we contracted with Oceaneering International. In 2010 we contracted with SeaBotix.  In 2012 we contracted with Phoenix international. In 2015 we contracted with Advanced Remote Marine Services.  Each contractor was an experienced  professional outfit with a reputation to protect, highly motivated to overcome problems and deliver results - and Nikumaroro defeated every one of them.

And I love this one:
 "Could not" as in could not raise those kinds of funds again, is not in my vocabulary. TIGHAR may have to wait a little while longer, or operate a little differently, but I believe if its really worth going after, the funds can be found."

If I may interrupt your swagger for a moment, please let us know how you have succeeded in raising vast sums of money for nonprofits.

"I guess, TIGHAR has to go big or it will never succeed."

In 2012 we had a word-class oceanographic research vessel and the U.S. Navy's primary recovery contractor at a cost of over two million dollars.  If that isn't "going big" I don't know what is.



 
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Bill Lloyd on July 09, 2015, 08:41:03 AM
In 2015 we contracted with Advanced Remote Marine Services. 

Since the ROV broke down, was there any kind of warranty in the contract for services? If so you may be due an adjustment.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 09, 2015, 08:53:41 AM
In 2015 we contracted with Advanced Remote Marine Services. 

Since the ROV broke down, was there any kind of warranty in the contract for services? If so you may be due an adjustment.

In view of the difficulties experienced, the contractor has voluntarily declined to accept any payment at all for his services.  TIGHAR paid to ship the equipment to Fiji and we'll pay for the return shipping but that's all. This is in stark contrast to the contractor for the 2012 trip who demanded full payment ($860,000) up front, failed to deliver the services paid for, and has steadfastly refused to make any adjustment.  Having spent well over $100,000 successfully defending against the Mellon lawsuit, we can't afford to go after the 2012 contractor unless we can find a law firm that will take it on as a contingency or pro bono case.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: JNev on July 09, 2015, 09:01:11 AM
All factual points, of course.  And of course a public forum is what it is - but you have an audience that is interested, which seems like a positive thing.

What seems to sum out of much of this is that TIGHAR has, by her efforts, at the very least swept the onshore and near shore environment well enough to know 'where not to look further' (with the possible exception of the anomaly, depending on the outcome of the 'hail Mary').

Which seems to leave a need - if one intends to finish scouring the Niku possibility, offshore / deeper capabilities.  At a glance, that does suggest 'bigger bucks, bigger ship, bigger / more equipment' - BIG TIME, granted.

Maybe that's not as undoable as you think.  But it may require a major expansion of the hypothesis.

Not for me to say obviously, but again - be glad you have an audience - and even those sound critical are not necessarily against you or looking more deeply -

As you point out, four major firms were engaged - and all were defeated 'by Niku' - arguably, but never mind: what MAY count (your call, not mine, of course) is "why did they fail and what can we do about it, and where / how should we be looking next?"  If you want to find that dang bird (and sorry, but some of us just think that is the indespensible terminating action for this hypothesis, realizing 'preponderance' is also floated but not enough for many, apparently), then maybe this is something to consider.

I realize you just got whacked in the hot sun out there and are now taking howitzer shots left and right, as it must feel.  But what do you want out of this, Ric?  You are convinced she's there - have said so, to me here lately in fact - OK, I can respect that whale in your waters (I would like her to be too).  You've counted a lot on 'perusal' but still struggle (consider where the discussion still is), and the anomaly could be 'it', but dangit all...

Looks to me like you own it as it is (duh, I know you know that better than any of us could possible realize) - so where do you want to take it from here???

- Cave, claim perusal and write the book on what's gone to date and do tours, or -
- Regroup, build a blue-ribbon panel of the best talent you can muster to look at all that has gone before and consider where / how to look next, and go for the gold ring?

I know you are sick of hearing my opinions - and I give you great credit for allowing me to even still be here, realizing that.  But it seems like TIGHAR needs to 'rebrand' into something bigger and badder and take the full-blown chance of finding her or not finding her on the greater slopes of Niku, once and for all - if you really want that gold ring to go down in history.

Where / how?

Where -

You and others have been there, not me - but after seeing that really nice video taken during the Princess tour, I was struck at how wide, long and smooth some of those beaches appear to be - and how rough that reef 'flat' really can be.  Does there need to be an expanded / deeper examination of the reef slope to rule it out, and then work around the island?  HUGE task, but Nauticos mowed a lot of lawn, and not all of it smooth either.

How -

BIG ship, MULTIPLE devices, most proven - dunno, but seems like you need the wisdom from all you've lived through plus that of people like Nauticos attracted.

Just thoughts.  Including that having 'mortgaged the future' and that you have a lot on the line, either go BIG, own this thing in a whole new bold way, or curl up with the 'perusal' business.

Not saying it's easy - I never had to raise one dime to do what you've done.  But I know such projects DO happen.  Can Gillespie reinvent himself and TIGHAR in a big way to go after that?

Make of it what you will - but despite all my concerns and criticisms, I offer you those thoughts honestly and in the clear here.  You're the only one who knows what he really wants out of this, or what you're willing to do to get it, of course - board and organization be damned: you are at the helm, that's been clear for a long time (with all respect to board, etc. of course - but...).

BTW, if I was a hater or a troll, I wouldn't bother with any of this.  I wouldn't take the chance of raising your ire or pour out my own observations.  You can call me naive, or amateur - and yes, I may be those things.  But I'm an honest thinker and if I bother to tell you what I think, then at least don't call me an enemy.

Just thoughts - and I suggest that guys like Eddie, John and Oskar here have similar value for you.

Glad you are all back safe.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Skip Daly on July 09, 2015, 09:11:04 AM
In view of the difficulties experienced, the contractor has voluntarily declined to accept any payment at all for his services

Thinking optimistically for a moment, does this mean that sufficient funds are in the coffer to set things up for a 2016 return, to have a proper look at the anomaly?  I don't know what percentage of the overall budget was allocated for the contracted services, vs. travel expenses, etc.  But one would imagine this as significant enough to provide a good start on funding a return?

As for the anomaly...I gather the GPS data is still pending?  Correlating the camera location to the anomaly location should be pretty interesting.  If nothing is readily visible in the photos --- either wreckage or geology --- that would account for the sonar anomaly, then it seems likely the cameras missed the anomaly location by some distance, no?  The alternative explanation would be that the anomaly is no longer in the same position as it was in 2012.  Intuitively, I would think that latter explanation unlikely, due to the depth......but maybe I am wrong?  What size storm would be required to affect movement on a 30+ foot object 600 feet underwater?

Along these lines....were there any plans...or are there any plans...to re-validate (via sonar?) that the anomaly still sits where it did in 2012?
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Eddie Rose on July 09, 2015, 09:28:38 AM
Thinking optimistically for a moment, does this mean that sufficient funds are in the coffer to set things up for a 2016 return, to have a proper look at the anomaly?

Personally, I can't see the wisdom in repeating the same exercise, especially so soon after this expedition. There doesn't seem to be much (if anything) left to find on a boat trip to the island.

Maybe time is needed for technology to catch up with our demands. Perhaps in a few years advances in ROV technology and lower cost will make it practical to hire a firm that can do a complete survey for a mile around the island in every direction to get a definitive answer, once and for all. With payment (or at least part of it) contingent on results.

Flying drones have come a long way in a short time, maybe we'll see the same with underwater drones.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Skip Daly on July 09, 2015, 09:36:41 AM
Personally, I can't see the wisdom in repeating the same exercise, especially so soon after this expedition. There doesn't seem to be much (if anything) left to find on a boat trip to the island.

*IF* the GPS confirms that the camera did not even reach the anomaly location, then it at least seems worth checking that out "for real", no?

That was, after all, the prime goal of this past expedition.  (A goal that was compromised by the equipment failures.)

Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 09, 2015, 09:49:26 AM
Looks to me like you own it as it is (duh, I know you know that better than any of us could possible realize) - so where do you want to take it from here???

- Cave, claim perusal and write the book on what's gone to date and do tours, or -
- Regroup, build a blue-ribbon panel of the best talent you can muster to look at all that has gone before and consider where / how to look next, and go for the gold ring?

Sure, I get discouraged at times - especially after a trip like this last one - but you've known me for how many years?  Which way do you think I'll take it?

Sometimes you piss me off but I do believe your intentions are sincere.  Your assessment of the current situation is very much in line with my own.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Bill Lloyd on July 09, 2015, 09:53:45 AM
My instincts would be to give it another try with the ROV. Use same company take backups, lobby FedEx for reconsideration or find another carrier that would like a piece of  the action. This setback does not doom this project a failure. Public relations are your long suit, go after it. Don’t get bogged down in a lawsuit for the 2012 adjustment.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 09, 2015, 10:06:56 AM
Thinking optimistically for a moment, does this mean that sufficient funds are in the coffer to set things up for a 2016 return, to have a proper look at the anomaly?

I wish that were the case but we had to go significantly into debt just to make the expedition happen.  Fortunately the board member who loaned us the money is not in a huge hurry to get it back. Right now my main concern is that we are able to preserve the organization as we re-group, re-assess, and re-invent.

As for the anomaly...I gather the GPS data is still pending?

Yes. 
 
What size storm would be required to affect movement on a 30+ foot object 600 feet underwater?

Good question.  I don't know and I'm not sure than anyone can give us a reliable answer.  I do know that the island got clobbered some time between the last Google Earth image in November 2014 and our arrival on June 13, 2015. Severe Tropical Cyclone Pam in March is the probable culprit and the just-budding re-growth of beachfront vegetation looks about right.

Along these lines....were there any plans...or are there any plans...to re-validate (via sonar?) that the anomaly still sits where it did in 2012?

A sector-scan sonar mounted on an ROV would do the job.  We had one on the ROV this trip.
The problem is, any on-site investigation means chartering a ship and appropriate ships are hard to find, hard to schedule and invariably expensive.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 09, 2015, 10:11:21 AM
*IF* the GPS confirms that the camera did not even reach the anomaly location, then it at least seems worth checking that out "for real", no?

I hope I'm wrong but I don't think we're going to get enough information from the Hail Mary photos to draw any firm conclusions one way or the other.  Yes, the anomaly still needs checking out.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 09, 2015, 10:18:05 AM
My instincts would be to give it another try with the ROV. Use same company take backups, lobby FedEx for reconsideration or find another carrier that would like a piece of  the action. This setback does not doom this project a failure. Public relations are your long suit, go after it. Don’t get bogged down in a lawsuit for the 2012 adjustment.

How would everyone feel if we somehow raised another $500,000 and duplicated Niku VIII only to find that the anomaly was an unusual coral ridge or not there at all?  What's really needed is a thorough inspection of the deep water off the west end of the atoll down to much greater depths than we've explored to date. 
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: JNev on July 09, 2015, 10:39:21 AM
If you're going to do it at all, that's the way to go.

Personally I think you can't exclude the rest of the mount if you go that route, but can see where 'phases' might make sense.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Eddie Rose on July 09, 2015, 11:02:07 AM
*IF* the GPS confirms that the camera did not even reach the anomaly location, then it at least seems worth checking that out "for real", no?

I agree with that. I just don't think repeating a boat trip, land exploration, DIY-ROV type expedition is wise. "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

It's worth checking out, but something has to change.

What if you survey the spot and it's empty? Maybe something moved or slid down deeper. That's why I think a full & complete professional survey of the surrounding area will give a definitive answer on the presence of any man-made stuff down there that's not shaped like Norwich City debris.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 09, 2015, 11:18:43 AM
What if you survey the spot and it's empty? Maybe something moved or slid down deeper. That's why I think a full & complete professional survey of the surrounding area will give a definitive answer on the presence of any man-made stuff down there that's not shaped like Norwich City debris.

Good.  Then I'm sure you're eager to join TIGHAR (http://tighar.org/membership.html) and help us bring that about - or are you just posturing?
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Bob Smith on July 09, 2015, 01:20:56 PM
 "How would everyone feel if we somehow raised another $500,000 and duplicated Niku VIII only to find that the anomaly was an unusual coral ridge or not there at all?  What's really needed is a thorough inspection of the deep water off the west end of the atoll down to much greater depths than we've explored to date. "
That's exactly what we're all here for Ric. Wish I had said that myself! Let's do it and at least prove one way or the other there is or is not anything there!
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Margaret Sanders on July 09, 2015, 02:20:07 PM
Ric,

I apologize if this is an idea that's implausible. I wonder if there are other sources of satellite images of the area that might help narrow down where the anomaly might be now. I know, for instance, that organizations exist which use sat images to search for planes such as the Malaysia airlines one a while back. I don't know whether different organizations use different satellites or how that works but maybe a more recent picture of Niku is available. If this is too remedial an just say so. If it's not, and if it would help in any way, I'd be happy to do some web-scouring.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 09, 2015, 03:10:14 PM
TIGHAR may have to wait a little while longer, or operate a little differently, but I believe if its really worth going after, the funds can be found.

OK.

Quote
The exploration of anything may be stunted, but must not be determined or defined by the amount of money needed.

In this case, the lack of money prevented getting a big ship when it was available and prevented the shipment of the backup ROV.

Money matters.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Bob Smith on July 09, 2015, 03:45:05 PM
I disagree alittle, Marty. It wasn't the lack of money that caused the problems, although that has been a constant theme and excuse to use when things don't go right (Same as the weather!) I think somebody got antsy and didn't want to wait or look at other alternatives. I'm not an articulate or knowledgeable fund raiser type person, but I know in my own experiences that sometimes people get so set and comfortable in doing something a certain way, The Brain just blocks out other possible paths and needs a different view or attitude or incentive to start thinking again.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Bill Lloyd on July 09, 2015, 04:04:41 PM
How would everyone feel if we somehow raised another $500,000 and duplicated Niku VIII only to find that the anomaly was an unusual coral ridge or not there at all?  What's really needed is a thorough inspection of the deep water off the west end of the atoll down to much greater depths than we've explored to date.
You went there to investigate the anomaly and it didn't work out. You still need to determine the posture of the anomaly. I would agree about the thorough inspection going deep and of course that should be done if you can swing it.

Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 09, 2015, 05:21:42 PM
I disagree alittle, Marty. It wasn't the lack of money that caused the problems ...

The lack of money is why they didn't have the big boat that was available with some big ROVs on it.

The lack of money is why they didn't have a backup ROV with them on the Nai'a.

The lack of money sure seems to me to be a causal factor.

YMMV.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 09, 2015, 05:35:52 PM
I disagree alittle, Marty. It wasn't the lack of money that caused the problems, although that has been a constant theme and excuse to use when things don't go right (Same as the weather!) I think somebody got antsy and didn't want to wait or look at other alternatives.

This is an ad hominem attack. 
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Bob Smith on July 09, 2015, 06:13:45 PM
(I'm looking up the phrase "ad hominem" ) But don't take it personally, Ric. I'm sure you feel pressure from other sources to "get on with it". But I'm sympathizing with you as you are surely between a rock and a hard place sometimes.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 09, 2015, 06:39:58 PM
(I'm looking up the phrase "ad hominem" )

I suggest that you familiarize yourself with the phrase.

But don't take it personally, Ric.

You essentially called me a liar.  How am I supposed to not take that personally?  I'm going to put you on moderation.  That means your submissions will not appear on the Forum until one of the moderators approves them.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Eddie Rose on July 09, 2015, 07:19:30 PM
Good.  Then I'm sure you're eager to join TIGHAR (http://tighar.org/membership.html) and help us bring that about - or are you just posturing?

That's an odd comment, and I don't know what to make of it.

I do admire your bravado in the face of recent failures to publicly challenge me to give you money.

I would consider joining and supporting if changes are made. With The Institute now in debt, would that money go to the unpaid bills of the previous expedition?
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 09, 2015, 07:30:36 PM
Good.  Then I'm sure you're eager to join TIGHAR (http://tighar.org/membership.html) and help us bring that about - or are you just posturing?

That's an odd comment, and I don't know what to make of it.

Monty Fowler calls it asking people to "put their money where their mouth is."

I do admire your bravado in the face of recent failures to publicly challenge me to give you money.

I'm not asking you to give me money.  I'm asking you to make a tax deductible charitable contribution to a 501 c3 public charity.

I would consider joining and supporting if changes are made. With The Institute now in debt, would that money go to the unpaid bills of the previous expedition?

You can earmark a contribution for a specific purpose but membership fees go into the general coffers to be used wherever they're needed.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Michael HALL on July 10, 2015, 08:44:29 AM
Hi Ric,

As an admirer of your commitment and drive towards finding that smoking gun evidence, and from what I have read (although forgive me for skirting through so many posts and reading mainly yours) I get the feeling this trip did not give much more insight.

What is your next stage? Should we be looking forward to another trip in the future to have a better look at the anomaly?

I am also interested to hear if there is any progress in the aluminium window plate?

All the best
Michael Hall
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Chuck Creigh on July 12, 2015, 02:06:51 PM
Nice video for Niku VIII Mark. Put together well and really like that guitar solo starting around 11:00. Figured out that song is "Spirits In The Wind" by Willie K. It even got me to dust off my electric again - sore fingers now. What does that have to do with Niku VIII - not much... except there has to be a former musician in every crowd.

Observing you all for years. Was waiting for someone to draw the connection for Betty's notebook having more validity due to 20 meter harmonic frequency easily capable during the peak of the 11 year sunspot cycle in 1937, as it is now (ham bands go mostly dead on off peak years). And 20 meters is mostly storm static free (unlike the 40 and 80 meter frequencies she was using). I am also former extremely active ham operator (in many contests), only during the two years from 1969-1970 (sun spot cycle peak) so I know well how those two frequencies AE used would have behaved then. But harmonic of 20 meters easily possible then - especially skip over the ocean to Florida from Niku (if her transmitter caused harmonics).

Sorry to hear about the ROV problems - the fascinating mystery again deepens and continues...

-Chuck
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Dave Ross Wilkinson on July 12, 2015, 07:07:25 PM
Hi Chuck  You wrote
Quote
Was waiting for someone to draw the connection for Betty's notebook having more validity due to 20 meter harmonic frequency easily capable during the peak of the 11 year sunspot cycle in 1937, as it is now

I wish some of the 20m radio work had been done during daylight in the states, when the credible  post-loss signals were heard, instead of a night, which is all I know of.  That could have been such a slam-dunk if someone heard TIGHAR at 8-10 AM on the west coast, or afternoon in Florida!
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 12, 2015, 07:15:04 PM
I wish some of the 20m radio work had been done during daylight in the states, when the credible  post-loss signals were heard

Very few of the credible post-loss signals were heard in the states and, of those, only a few were heard during hours of daylight in the states.  Nearly all of the credible post-loss signals were heard in the Central Pacific during hours of darkness.  Everyone tends to focus on Betty because the content of what she heard and recorded is so compelling, but her reception was only one of 57 credible occurrences.

The radio transmissions made during Niku VIII were not intended to prove anything relating to 1937.  The transmitter was not the same, the antenna was not the same, the power output was not the same, the frequencies were not the same, and the electromagnetic environment was not the same.  It was an exercise for the fun of it - and it was great fun for many people.  Nothing more, nothing less.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Chuck Creigh on July 12, 2015, 08:45:03 PM
I still have all my ham log books from 1969-1970, but from memory I would bet the Central Pacific at night reception was 40 meters (the second frequency she switched to), which is at its best at night and during the summer, especially over water – if you could handle the lightening static from any storms that were within 40 meter (7 MHz) reception in any direction. It was still usable during the day, but the distances were very reduced. 40 has a skip to it also, so if you are about 10 miles or so away (not sure of that exact distance) it starts to go overhead and cannot be heard again until it comes back down to earth some hundred(s) of miles away (if I remember that distance correctly). And likely why she was not heard from again after she switched to the second frequency of 40 meters. She was now skipping over them. 80 meters essentially has no real initial skip hole, but is not good for as far as 40 since it has to skip too many times to cover the same distance as 40.

If Betty never said anything about having to deal with static, then it is not so likely she would have been listening on 40 meters (7 MHz), due to any weak signal will be over powered by lightening occurring from storms in any direction. Any ham on 40 meters in the good reception months of summer does not forget the numerous loud sudden crashes of lightening static while listening for a weak signal. It is almost unbearable, 80 meters is worse.

Although I chatted with Hawaii on 40 meters a couple times from Minnesota, I knew I got lucky, and was only right before Minnesota sunrise for some reason. Not really possible on 80 meters from Minnesota to Hawaii.

However the coveted 20 meter band had essentially no storm static and could easily reach those distances in day or night during the sun spot cycle peak, which 1937 was at the very peak. I would think that anyone (experienced or not) spinning the receiver dials listening for far away stations would only have really heard them on 20 meters anyway, so likely Betty or other credible listeners had figured this out as 20 meters was the place to look. There is no better distance frequency in July that was heavy used back then.

Many transmitting frequencies were allocated as harmonic frequencies by the FCC so you could use the same expensive transmitting crystal for different bands. And those older transmitters did not yet have such good filtering to block out harmonic or spurious oscillations. So it is “very likely” IMO that Betty and others used 20 meter band and AE’s transmitter was harmonically transmitting on the best frequency possible, at the best possible sun spot cycle year to reach Florida – 20 meters. 20 is the first and strongest harmonic of 40.

The higher even better frequencies for distance like 15 meters went completely dead in the summer, only great in the winter, so 20 meters was it for any long distance in July.

I was very sorry to hear of the ROV problems as I have been reading here for years and this run looked quite hopeful. I’ve found TIGHAR to have integrity in their factual approaches, even in spite of discouragement after discouragement. Skipping over any endorsement of the “National Enquirer” type of approach… Such perseverance is refreshing when it is done with honesty these days.

-Chuck
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Chuck Creigh on July 14, 2015, 10:26:44 AM
HARMONICS

Using Amelia’s frequencies:
3.105 MHz, I have been comparing it to the 80 meter ham band
6.210 MHz, been comparing it to 40 meter ham band
12.42 MHz, (harmonic frequency) been comparing it to 20 meter ham band

From my ham radio experience, I’ve always thought the “only” way Betty or others in the USA could have heard AE (especially during the day) would have to be on the 12.42 MHz harmonic frequency. That frequency will easily reach those distances inside the USA day or night. Because 1937 was a peak year of the sunspot 11 year cycle that enables this radio frequency to do so (more on sunspot cycles below). Her two frequencies of 6.210 MHz and 3.105 MHz have drastically reduced distances during the day, and only 6.210 MHz would marginally have that reach only at night if there was not much storm static present that occurs at that frequency during the summer. All other harmonic frequencies above 12.42 MHz go dead in the summer due to no skip until winter.

There is no doubt at all that 12.42 MHz has the capability to carry transmitted radio signals to most of the  USA from Niku with 50 watts or less even with a marginal antenna on a peak year like 1937. Any ham with 20 meter (14 MHz) experience during a peak year should be able to confirm those distances (especially skipping over water). It was extremely common to talk with Europe, Japan, South America, etc for this frequency from USA on peak sunspot years. There used to be ham clubs like the “10 watt club” and the QRP (low wattage) club that did those distances a lot on much less than 50 watts, but only during peak sunspot years. I personally talked to 38 countries all around the world with about 75 watts, 32 countries sent me back confirming QSL post cards I still have. I did it mostly on the 15 meter ham band (a higher frequency than 12.42 MHz and in winter) due to my lower ham license level did not allow me to use this more desired 20 meter band for distance. 20 meters (14 MHz), like 12.42 MHz could be used any time of day or in any season during a peak year for long distance. There really is no question that Amelia’s setup “could be” easily capable of that distance on the harmonic frequency of 12.42 MHz in 1937.

So the real question would be: Did AE’s transmitter transmit on this harmonic frequency? Doing some research yesterday I found this surprisingly to be a good possibility. Here is why.

All transmitters (even modern day transmitters with good filtering) do transmit on these undesired harmonic frequencies, but due to good filtering and “proper transmitter tuning”, these harmonic wattage outputs are very low. Acceptable harmonic output levels are now set by the FCC. But if AE got careless (which it has been said she sometimes did) and did not tune her transmitter properly especially after changing a frequency (or her transmitter was not filtered properly), then her transmitter “most certainly” would have been also transmitting on harmonic frequencies like 12.42 MHz. Depending upon how far out of tune it was could make the harmonics transmit level quite high, according to the below link put out by an ARRL contributing editor. The ARRL would know as well as anyone when it comes to transmitters for frequencies that AE used (which are very close to all the ARRL ham frequency bands they regulate and license).

On the second page of the below link, middle column near the bottom of page it says: “A final word about harmonic radiation is in order. If you mistune the output amplifier of your transmitter (tune it to the wrong frequency), the harmonic output energy level can be quite high”.

A mistuned transmitter causes harmonics (http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/8502034.pdf)

This is “a fact” (not a theory) that applies to all radio transmitters even today, not just ones built in the 1930’s.

Many other factors could have caused AE harmonic transmitting such as, an inadequately designed low pass filter for all the frequencies she used, or bad physical location for that filter inside the transmitter (if there even was a filter), or bad transmitter grounding, bad shielding, etc.

Not considering the transmitter harmonic filtering design or how difficult it might have been to retune (if she even tuned it at all), I would tend to go with this instead: She may have been quite desperate while on the reef and likely didn’t waste the time or the aircraft gas to retune her transmitter each time she changed frequencies, and that would be all it would take to get a stronger 12.42 MHz harmonic. This 12.42 MHz harmonic could come from either the 3.105 MHz or 6.210 MHz frequencies she used. And 12.42 MHz I am quite certain would have been the “only” possible harmonic frequency Betty or others could have heard AE on (especially during the day). I say this from my own past ham experience during a sunspot cycle peak and my past experience with ham bands near AE’s frequencies.

SUNSPOT CYCLES

This link shows the 1937 sunspot cycle peak, and the similar peak in 1969-1970 when I was a very active ham operator when long distance skip was occurring. During low peak years, the long distance skip bands go dead – no skip.

Sunspot cycle graph for the years 1875 to 2013 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cycle#/media/File:Sunspot-bfly.gif)

I learned about various frequencies capabilities from numerous ham contests. Contests were often based upon a number of hours of allocated air time over perhaps a two week contest. Contest score often had to do with the number of contacts made, and the number of different areas contacted. The more areas contacted, the better the score. The only way to do well was one had to know the best frequency and it’s best time of day to try to contact a chosen new area not yet reached (without wasting allocated contest time). I really enjoyed those contests, because I had learned my frequencies well.

So even after all these years, frequencies come into play once again concerning AE because I was only a ham during the sunspot cycle peak years, like 1937 was.

Does this “prove” AE transmitted to the USA during the day and was heard by Betty and others? Nope! But I have no doubt that her setup was capable of it in 1937. And the “potential” that it occurred seems a better possibility than I originally thought it was.

God knows, the perseverance and integrity of TIGHAR already “is” an example for others. Of that I also have no doubt.

-Chuck
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Byron Ake on July 14, 2015, 02:36:10 PM
By matching the time in the metadata of each image with the time of GPS coordinates taken on the surface we should be able to trace the approximate trail of the camera and see how close we came to the calculated position of the anomaly. We already know that no airplane wreckage is immediately apparent in the acquired images but neither do we see any obvious geological explanation for the object in the sonar data.  Whether any conclusions can be drawn from the imagery remains to be seen.

Once we have the GPS coordinates plotted so we have some idea of where the photos were taken in relation to the supposed anomaly coordinates I'll make all of the images available for everyone to look at.  We can all play Find The Banjo.

Going back to reply #25 a few days ago, Ric said that a photomosaic could be made using the photos from the Hail Mary dive. That looks like a fun project to try. It also reminded me of another undersea photomosaic that was made in a similar way. It's described in the NOVA special "Nazi Attack on America" http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/military/Nazi-Attack-America.html (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/military/Nazi-Attack-America.html) starting at 40:00 (caution: that part of the video contains a spoiler!) Definitely worth a shot if all the photos could be put in order.

For the hell of it, they also attached a GoPro camera rated to 70 meters.  Predictably it flooded and failed but they were willing to take the chance - any thing to get more pictures.

Has anyone checked the memory card from that camera yet? There must be a way to recover corrupted video files, assuming the camera did survive at least a short time on the bottom.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Greg Daspit on July 14, 2015, 05:01:21 PM
Tom King and the people on the Fiji Princess did some productive work in a very short time there. What kind of fees and approval from Kiribati were needed by the Fiji Princess/ Betchart people who went ashore and did scuba diving there? Did the Betchart trip cost TIGHAR anything?  Did it need approvals from TIGHAR and/or Kiribati?  Is there a distinction between the "Tourist" and TIGHAR as far as Kiribati is concerned?

From the Daily's a Niku VIII team member used his own hand build ROV and launched it from a skiff. He evidently got 45 minutes of video searching for the Debris Field but could not find it. Could a similar skiff, and maybe a more planned effort, be launched from a future Betchart trip? How was the skiff secured in the Hail Mary effort and in Walt’s ROV search of the Debris Field? 
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 14, 2015, 05:10:44 PM
Has anyone checked the memory card from that camera yet? There must be a way to recover corrupted video files, assuming the camera did survive at least a short time on the bottom.

We checked the memory card and found that the camera had collected still photos (as it was programmed to do) right up to the time it flooded long before it reached the bottom. We were surprised to recover anything from the memory card.
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 14, 2015, 06:21:42 PM
Tom King and the people on the Fiji Princess did some productive work in a very short time there. What kind of fees and approval from Kiribati were needed by the Fiji Princess/ Bechart people who went ashore and did scuba diving there?

Betchart Expeditions had to get a PIPA permit ($200) as did the TIGHAR expedition. They also had to pay airfare to and from Tarawa plus $50/day to have a Kiribati government official aboard - as did the TIGHAR expedition.  Fiji Princess had an Immigration official aboard.  We had a Customs official.  Both were pleasant, educated people in their 30s.  Kiribati also collected a $50 "landing fee" for every tourist who went ashore. No such fee was imposed on our team.

Did the Bechart trip cost TIGHAR anything?

No, if you don't count the time it took us to help and guide the tourists for the one day we were there together.

  Did it need approvals from TIGHAR and/or Kiribati?

Yes, both.

 
Is there a distinction between the "Tourist" and TIGHAR as far as Kiribati is concerned?

Yes.  Most definitely. 

From the Daily's a Niku VIII team member used his own hand build ROV and launched it from a skiff. He evidently got 45 minutes of video searching for the Debris Field but could not find it. Could a similar skiff, and maybe a more planned effort, be launched from a future Bechart trip?

In theory, yes.

How was the skiff secured in the Hail Mary effort and in Walt’s ROV search of the Debris Field?

It wasn't.  The ROV and Hail Mary were "live boated" (ROV-speak for operating from an unsecured, non-dynamic-positioning vessel).
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on July 14, 2015, 07:52:52 PM
... if AE got careless (which it has been said she sometimes did) and did not tune her transmitter properly especially after changing a frequency (or her transmitter was not filtered properly), then her transmitter “most certainly” would have been also transmitting on harmonic frequencies like 12.42 MHz. Depending upon how far out of tune it was could make the harmonics transmit level quite high ...

AE's transmitter was crystal-controlled (http://tighar.org/wiki/Radio_equipment_on_NR16020#Selecting_transmission_bands).

She could only select one of three transmission frequencies.

Of course, if her technicians made a mistake in tuning other parts of the system, that may have allowed transmission on the low harmonic.  Joe Gurr is said to have made a lot of modifications (http://tighar.org/wiki/Modifications_by_Joe_Gurr), and it may be that his efforts to provide some 500 Khz capacity (http://tighar.org/wiki/Modifications_by_Joe_Gurr#Redesign_of_dorsal_antenna:_50.25_longer) may have upset the tuning for the higher frequencies.  An antenna tuned for 3105 should be good for 6210, but neither of those frequencies is an even multiple of 500.

You might want to pull your material out of this thread, Chuck, and start a new thread in "Radio Reflections." (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/board,12.0.html)
Title: Re: Quick Summary of Fiji Princess trip to Nikumaroro
Post by: Chuck Creigh on July 15, 2015, 01:25:16 PM
Thanks Martin. Interesting info, and along with other info I’ve found, much more to validate where the clues have been sending me. Think I’ll go on your suggestion, but this has to turn into a part time hobby for me as reality of customers literally calling is something one can’t skip over – lol.

The more I’ve dug on this the more it seems like it is perhaps “smelling the smoke, of a technical smoking gun”. Can’t change the laws of physics as they say...

I'll start the thread perhaps in a day or so.

Fascinating - anyway, I’ll be back at it soon I hope.

-Chuck