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Author Topic: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund  (Read 553825 times)

Charlie Chisholm

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #60 on: June 24, 2013, 03:35:40 PM »

Hey Charlie, didn't you hear?

The Electra is at Site #1, including the cockpit and nose section, the tail section and tailwheel, as well as both main landing gears. So Richie must have found something else.

The debris at Site #1 was first found in 2010, then refound in 2012 (although slightly disturbed by rock movements on the slope.)

Any further expeditions, IMHO, would be a total waste of resources.

An expedition is the only way to confirm or disprove your hypothesis that the shapes in the coral you see are actually airplane parts. There is no other way.

Aren't you the least bit curious if the items you see are actually what you think they are and would withstand scientific peer review? That would be a major major thing - it would go down in the history books.

Or are you concerned that if your coral shapes are properly investigated, they may end up being just lumps of coral, and you feel you would be embarrassed and humiliated about the lawsuit and being proven wrong?

Believe me, for a scientist, there is no better thing to be proven wrong, because a real scientist is interested above all in what reality actually is, and being proven wrong means you will be closer to the truth. That is the overriding goal of all science. There is no shame. It's progress - on a personal and scientific level. It advances science.

I urge you to give it some thought. The truth is, nobody else except you, has the means to get this resolved in a timely fashion. It could take Tighar 3 to 5 years or more to raise that kind of money, and the truth should not have to wait. By then, the anomaly could be gone, your coral shapes could disappear by then. The time to act is now.

« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 04:21:17 PM by Charlie Chisholm »
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Bill Lloyd

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #61 on: June 24, 2013, 08:09:02 PM »

Summons returned and filed today in the US District Court Wyoming.

RE: Mellon v TIGHAR
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Tim Collins

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2013, 06:33:17 AM »

Summons returned and filed today in the US District Court Wyoming.

RE: Mellon v TIGHAR

Seriously, you'd think they could at least spell correctly on such a document: HIUSTORIC
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #63 on: July 17, 2013, 08:55:20 AM »

As I said I would at the beginning of this topic, I have refrained from discussing the Mellon lawsuit on this forum. Recent postings, however, have made it apparent that there is considerable confusion in some quarters about the facts of the case.  With the approval of TIGHAR's legal team, we have sent the following review of key events to all TIGHAR members.  I'm happy to share it now with all readers of this forum.

On March 30, 2012 Mr. Timothy Mellon made a contribution of a little over a million dollars toward TIGHAR’s NIku VII expedition to Nikumaroro.  Mr. Mellon subsequently participated in the expedition as a Sponsor Team Member.  On June 3, 2013 Mr. Mellon filed a lawsuit against TIGHAR and me personally.  The essence of Mr. Mellon’s suit is his allegation that the wreckage of the Earhart aircraft is visible in underwater video taken during TIGHAR’s 2010 Niku VI expedition and that I withheld that information from him at the time he made his financial contribution to the 2012 Niku VII expedition. Mr. Mellon’s allegations are not only totally illogical but also demonstrably false.

The underwater video in which Mr. Mellon says he sees airplane wreckage was taken on June 7, 2010. There is a piece of rope and what might be a piece of wire, or it could be just “whip coral,” in the video. They were the most interesting objects seen underwater during the Niku VI expedition. The discovery of the rope and possible wire, and the team meeting that night at which the video was reviewed and discussed, were filmed live by the Discovery Channel camera crew and are included in the documentary special “Finding Amelia” that first aired on December 10, 2010.  A clip of that segment from the show is on the TIGHAR Channel as “Finding Amelia excerpt.”  It is difficult to imagine how anything could be better documented than the fact that wreckage of the Earhart aircraft was not discovered during the 2010 expedition.

On December 8, 2010, two days before the Discovery show aired, I posted a two-minute clip from the video on the TIGHAR YouTube channel as “Wire & Rope.”  To date, that video clip has been viewed nearly 10,000 times. 

Mr. Mellon’s first contact with TIGHAR was on March 22, 2012 (two days after the State Department event with then Sec. of State Hilary Clinton) when Mr. Mellon sent an email to info@tighar.org inquiring about “funding opportunities.”   He and I talked on the phone, I sent him some standard project information, and he made his contribution eight days later.  I did not meet him in person until April 28, 2012 - nearly a month after he made his contribution. We met for lunch in Providence, RI. 

Tim Mellon came along on the Niku VII expedition and I thought we got along fine. In October 2012, three months after the expedition, Mr. Mellon and a few other members of the TIGHAR Amelia Earhart Search Forum began seeing what they believed to be airplane debris in the 2010 “Wire & Rope” video. I couldn’t see anything but the rope and possible wire but, on November 2, 2012, at their request, I posted the entire eight minute video to the TIGHAR YouTube channel as “Wire & Rope entire”.  That video has now been viewed over 21,000 times. Mr. Mellon soon began posting annotated screen captures from the video pointing out not only aircraft debris but also dismembered human remains, a fly swatter and Amelia’s banjo, guitar and violin.  His postings can be seen on the TIGHAR Forum in "Join the Search", “Summary of Debris from 2010 video.”    By January, 2013 I felt that Mr. Mellon’s posted “discoveries” had become so bizarre that allowing them to continue would damage TIGHAR’s credibility so I cut off forum discussion of objects seen in the underwater video.  He continued to send me annotated screen-captures of wreckage and body parts he believed he could see in the video, and I continued to see nothing but coral.  More recently, based on Mr. Mellon's insistence that the airplane wreckage, musical instruments, and body parts were best viewed in the full-resolution HD version of the 2010 video, I made the full-resolution video freely available via Dropbox to anyone who wished to see it.  Only a handful of people asked to see it and none of them reported seeing anything but coral.

The lawsuit in June came as a complete surprise.  We expect and respect that different people will have different interpretations and opinions about the Earhart disappearance.  That has been true for 76 years.  We don’t expect people to resort to legal action to promote their opinion. There were no acrimonious exchanges with Mr. Mellon and we received no demands from him before he filed his complaint.  When we learned of his suit we contacted his attorney and offered to meet to work out any misunderstanding, but our overtures were rebuffed. None of this makes any sense to us.

We’re confident that TIGHAR will prevail but even frivolous lawsuits are expensive to fight so we’ve asked the TIGHAR membership and the general public to support us by donating to the TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund.  I hope you’ll help.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 09:39:08 AM by Ric Gillespie »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #64 on: July 17, 2013, 07:02:20 PM »

As I said I would at the beginning of this topic, I have refrained from discussing the Mellon lawsuit on this forum. Recent postings, however, have made it apparent that there is considerable confusion in some quarters about the facts of the case.  With the approval of TIGHAR's legal team, we have sent the following review of key events to all TIGHAR members.  I'm happy to share it now with all readers of this forum.

On March 30, 2012 Mr. Timothy Mellon made a contribution of a little over a million dollars toward TIGHAR’s NIku VII expedition to Nikumaroro.  Mr. Mellon subsequently participated in the expedition as a Sponsor Team Member.  On June 3, 2013 Mr. Mellon filed a lawsuit against TIGHAR and me personally.  The essence of Mr. Mellon’s suit is his allegation that the wreckage of the Earhart aircraft is visible in underwater video taken during TIGHAR’s 2010 Niku VI expedition and that I withheld that information from him at the time he made his financial contribution to the 2012 Niku VII expedition. Mr. Mellon’s allegations are not only totally illogical but also demonstrably false.

The underwater video in which Mr. Mellon says he sees airplane wreckage was taken on June 7, 2010. There is a piece of rope and what might be a piece of wire, or it could be just “whip coral,” in the video. They were the most interesting objects seen underwater during the Niku VI expedition. The discovery of the rope and possible wire, and the team meeting that night at which the video was reviewed and discussed, were filmed live by the Discovery Channel camera crew and are included in the documentary special “Finding Amelia” that first aired on December 10, 2010.  A clip of that segment from the show is on the TIGHAR Channel as “Finding Amelia excerpt.”  It is difficult to imagine how anything could be better documented than the fact that wreckage of the Earhart aircraft was not discovered during the 2010 expedition.

On December 8, 2010, two days before the Discovery show aired, I posted a two-minute clip from the video on the TIGHAR YouTube channel as “Wire & Rope.”  To date, that video clip has been viewed nearly 10,000 times. 

Mr. Mellon’s first contact with TIGHAR was on March 22, 2012 (two days after the State Department event with then Sec. of State Hilary Clinton) when Mr. Mellon sent an email to info@tighar.org inquiring about “funding opportunities.”   He and I talked on the phone, I sent him some standard project information, and he made his contribution eight days later.  I did not meet him in person until April 28, 2012 - nearly a month after he made his contribution. We met for lunch in Providence, RI. 

Tim Mellon came along on the Niku VII expedition and I thought we got along fine. In October 2012, three months after the expedition, Mr. Mellon and a few other members of the TIGHAR Amelia Earhart Search Forum began seeing what they believed to be airplane debris in the 2010 “Wire & Rope” video. I couldn’t see anything but the rope and possible wire

And herein lies the basic problem: you refuse to examine the highest definition video, and you rely on a less than qualified forensic examiner to rubber-stamp your "opinions".
Quote

 but, on November 2, 2012, at their request, I posted the entire eight minute video to the TIGHAR YouTube channel as “Wire & Rope entire”.  That video has now been viewed over 21,000 times. Mr. Mellon soon began posting annotated screen captures from the video pointing out not only aircraft debris but also dismembered human remains, a fly swatter and Amelia’s banjo, guitar and violin.  His postings can be seen on the TIGHAR Forum in "Join the Search", “Summary of Debris from 2010 video.”    By January, 2013 I felt that Mr. Mellon’s posted “discoveries” had become so bizarre that allowing them to continue would damage TIGHAR’s credibility so I cut off forum discussion of objects seen in the underwater video.  He continued to send me annotated screen-captures of wreckage and body parts he believed he could see in the video, and I continued to see nothing but coral.  More recently, based on Mr. Mellon's insistence that the airplane wreckage, musical instruments, and body parts were best viewed in the full-resolution HD version of the 2010 video, I made the full-resolution video freely available via Dropbox to anyone who wished to see it.  Only a handful of people asked to see it and none of them reported seeing anything but coral.

Lloyd Manley excepted?
Quote


The lawsuit in June came as a complete surprise.  We expect and respect that different people will have different interpretations and opinions about the Earhart disappearance.  That has been true for 76 years.  We don’t expect people to resort to legal action to promote their opinion. There were no acrimonious exchanges with Mr. Mellon and we received no demands from him before he filed his complaint.  When we learned of his suit we contacted his attorney and offered to meet to work out any misunderstanding, but our overtures were rebuffed. None of this makes any sense to us.

We’re confident that TIGHAR will prevail but even frivolous lawsuits
(Your interpretation)
Quote
are expensive to fight so we’ve asked the TIGHAR membership and the general public to support us by donating to the TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund.  I hope you’ll help.
Tim
Chairman,  CEO
PanAm Systems

TIGHAR #3372R
 
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Nancy Marilyn Gould

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #65 on: July 17, 2013, 07:27:36 PM »

I'm not a member of Tighar, but I did contribute to the legal defense fund.  So you can imagine my surprise when I came home today to find a copy of "Tighar Tracks" in my mailbox!  Gee, thanks, Tighar!  That was awfully nice of you and very much appreciated!

BTW, as a person with an engineering background and an advanced degree in statistics as well as being an instrument-rated pilot, I just wanted to tell Ric and the rest of the Tighar team that I find the research you've done to be highly credible and that I stand behind you all the way!  I bet a lot of people in the scientific community would agree.

Don't let the b'stards get you down!
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 08:08:36 PM by Nancy Marilyn Gould »
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Ted G Campbell

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #66 on: July 17, 2013, 10:02:12 PM »

Keep it up Tim, the more you talk the bigger the "Defense Fund" becomes.
Ted Campbell
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Kevin Weeks

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #67 on: July 18, 2013, 08:30:48 AM »

the irony of this lawsuit kills me!

If we look at this rationally one question stands out.

why would Ric want to keep scrounging (probably not the right word, but I'm sure it feels like it when Ric is trying to get funding to meet deadlines for a research expedition) for research funding if he had already found an object that proved beyond doubt his hypothesis??

basically the way I read the suit is that Ric covered up a find that would probably send him as much funding as he could ever want just on the off chance that someone would offer him enough money for another expedition 2 years later??

option 1: show proof the plane exists, get funding, grants, publicity. write books that make him literally millions of dollars, movie rights?? etc. there is possibly HUGE money to be made if his hypothesis were to pan out.

option 2: Find wreckage, ignore it. show the footage to the WORLD and hope no one sees it. chance anyone being able to go back and claim it. HOPE and pray that you continue to get enough in donations to keep up the facade that you haven't found the smoking gun you've been praying for the last 20+ years.

completely ridiculous grounds for a lawsuit IMO. my REAL thought is "you aren't taking my ideas seriously so I will sue you and force you to!" with tongue out, thumbs in ears while wiggling fingers.

his lawsuit stands on the grounds that there is more money to be made by donations than by proving his hypothesis. these grounds are completely 100% false. Therefore I have to stand by my opinion above, that it is 100% ego that is driving the suit.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 08:34:29 AM by Kevin Weeks »
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Scott Doudrick

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #68 on: July 18, 2013, 09:37:53 AM »

Sorry to add another voice to the fray but...

Go back to Niku and look again

A lot of time and resources have been/will be spent on this lawsuit. Instead, put that time and those resources toward another look at the slope beneath Niku with the underwater tools and technology necessary to ensure an archaeologically conclusive result.

If wreckage is found where Mr. Mellon says, he gets huge props for the resources and insight he has provided, along with Mr. Gillespie and the rest of the TIGHAR team.  Most importantly, SHE WOULD BE FOUND!

If no wreckage is found in that location, the sonar anomaly can be investigated, etc. and Mr. Mellon gets huge props for the resources and insight he has provided, along with Mr. Gillespie and the rest of the TIGHAR team. Most importantly, SHE MIGHT BE FOUND!

In any lawsuit(s) filed by any party after that, the suit(s) would focus solely on the motivation of individuals and entities, and not the state of the archaeology.

-Scott
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Tim Collins

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #69 on: July 18, 2013, 09:53:50 AM »

... Mr. Mellon gets huge props for the resources and insight he has provided, ...

Indeed! I found the violin and banjo images to be quite compelling.
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Charlie Chisholm

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #70 on: July 18, 2013, 11:43:38 AM »

Go back to Niku and look again

A lot of time and resources have been/will be spent on this lawsuit. Instead, put that time and those resources toward another look at the slope beneath Niku with the underwater tools and technology necessary to ensure an archaeologically conclusive result.

If wreckage is found where Mr. Mellon says, he gets huge props for the resources and insight he has provided, along with Mr. Gillespie and the rest of the TIGHAR team.  Most importantly, SHE WOULD BE FOUND!

If no wreckage is found in that location, the sonar anomaly can be investigated, etc. and Mr. Mellon gets huge props for the resources and insight he has provided, along with Mr. Gillespie and the rest of the TIGHAR team. Most importantly, SHE MIGHT BE FOUND!

I suggested to Mr. Mellon this same thing, with him paying all or some of the bill, but he is not interested in finding out the truth.

I think his biggest fear, now that he has made such a stink about his so-called theory, is that he will be demonstrably and conclusively proven wrong. He may be willing to go to great lengths to prevent anyone from looking at the 2010 site again, because of that fear.

It would be an irresponsible waste of resources for Tighar to look again at the 2010 site, since there is nothing there but lumps of coral. A much better use of resources would be to look at Richie's Anomaly - it is the same size in both length and diameter as an Electra fuselage, and it's in the right place, so it clearly should be the number one target at this point.

The only reason to look at the 2010 site again would be if someone were willing to fund the cost of looking at it.

I still think Mr. Mellon should pony up some funding to go with Tighar to look at both sites, but I view that as unlikely at this point, because of the reasons I have stated.

It's too late now for a late summer/early fall "rush" expedition - too much risk of weather. Next summer is the earliest possible, but funding is not likely to be there for several summers from now, unless we find another angel investor to help us.

Just my two cents...
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Scott Doudrick

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #71 on: July 18, 2013, 12:18:56 PM »

It would be an irresponsible waste of resources for Tighar to look again at the 2010 site, since there is nothing there but lumps of coral

I was assuming the Golden Rule - He who provides the Gold makes the Rules.
Too bad that there isn't time this summer.

Cheers,
Scott
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #72 on: July 18, 2013, 12:35:39 PM »

The only reason to look at the 2010 site again would be if someone were willing to fund the cost of looking at it.

When we get back out there with the technology to investigate Richie's Anomaly it will be no big deal to take another look at the area covered in the 2010 Wire & Rope video - that is, if we knew where that area is.  As you may recall, the ROV positioning system was busted the day before the video was taken.  We don't know where the ROV was when it took that video except in the most general sense (roughly off the Bevington Object location at somewhere between 800  and 900 feet). We wanted to recover the "wire" to see what it was but when we went back the next day we couldn't find it again.  We didn't see the rope either. 

We have somewhat the same problem with the 2012 positioning data.  There are large discrepancies between where the AUV and ROV say things are. We suspect a calibration error but we can't tell which, if either, position is correct.

The point being, nobody can place the location of the 2010 Wire & Rope video or the 2012 ROV video on a map with any reasonable degree of accuracy.  We'll just have to re-search the whole area.  I don't think we'll come across the "wire. After studying the full-resolution video, I'm quite sure we inadvertently knocked it free.  We might find the rope.  If we do we'll recover it to see if it's made of modern synthetic material ( hemp should have rotted away after few years).
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 12:39:49 PM by Ric Gillespie »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #73 on: July 18, 2013, 12:59:43 PM »

I was assuming the Golden Rule - He who provides the Gold makes the Rules.
Too bad that there isn't time this summer.

That's true in a vendor/client relationship. For example, when TIGHAR charters a boat, as Expedition Leader, it's my boat (except for matters of safety which are always the captain's prerogative). Sponsors of the expedition, however, have no say in the conduct of the expedition. By making a charitable contribution they are expressing their confidence that their money will be used wisely. If they also participate in the expedition they are regular team members. We try to operate by consensus but the expedition leader has the final say.
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Brano Lacika

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #74 on: July 18, 2013, 01:00:52 PM »

The only reason to look at the 2010 site again would be if someone were willing to fund the cost of looking at it.

  We might find the rope.  If we do we'll recover it to see if it's made of modern synthetic material ( hemp should have rotted away after few years).

Being a pleasure yacht skipper for some years I do know, how the ropes look like after some years submerged in the seawater. Of course it may differ upon the depth, water temperature and other circumstances, but I would say no way of rope to look like that one on the pic after decades...
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