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Author Topic: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund  (Read 574441 times)

Tim Mellon

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #75 on: July 19, 2013, 01:33:02 AM »

Quote
So let's say that the 2010 footage showed a piece of aircraft with a legible matching N-number.
Assuming no maliciously placed evidence, it would be quite conclusive.  Would even that eliminate the need for the next expedition?
Instead it would increase the need, value, and excitement of that mission.
After all at that point it moves TIGHAR's theories to the brink of confirmed fact.
This type of footage would change the next expedition in what activities and methods are used.
It would also change the possible out-come of success to the certainty of success.
But in no way would it eliminate the need for it.

Mr. Buttke, the point in time you are referencing in the above quote is now.

This point in time, given all the video information collected in 2010, should have occurred latest 2011, and should have led to the successful expedition you envisage in 2012.

TIGHAR failed, instead, to apply enough proficient analysis to the data. The 2012 expedition was, therefore, ill-conceived and ill-managed, employing the wrong equipment supplied by a less than competent sub-contractor.

In short, the goal line should have been crossed by now.

 
Tim
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PanAm Systems

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Kevin Weeks

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #76 on: July 19, 2013, 09:20:37 AM »


Mr. Buttke, the point in time you are referencing in the above quote is now.

This point in time, given all the video information collected in 2010, should have occurred latest 2011, and should have led to the successful expedition you envisage in 2012.

TIGHAR failed, instead, to apply enough proficient analysis to the data. The 2012 expedition was, therefore, ill-conceived and ill-managed, employing the wrong equipment supplied by a less than competent sub-contractor.

In short, the goal line should have been crossed by now.

lets propose for a moment that your images are encrusted airplane pieces.

It sounds to me like you are admitting that tighar did not see the airplane in the video that was taken in 2010. How can you sue for fraud if even you are saying they did not analyze the video enough to know one way or the other until now?? Is your suit not based upon the fact that tighar had found the plane in 2010 yet still knowingly used your money for another search for said plane?? Just because they walked by a piece of evidence does not mean it was found...... you have to prove that they knowingly found it and misrepresented that fact. an ill-conceived, ill-managed expedition is not fraud

What is your end goal of the suit??
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Charlie Chisholm

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #77 on: July 19, 2013, 09:21:19 AM »

Amelia with Tim's grandfather, and again with Tim's aunt Ailsa included.

Back in the 1930's.

With Tim's family connections with Earhart, and Pan Am's connections with both Earhart and Noonan (Tim currently owns Pan Am), it is puzzling why he is intent on harming the only organization that is actively trying to solve the Earhart/Noonan mystery.

Just sayin'
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 09:28:15 AM by Charlie Chisholm »
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Victor Russell

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #78 on: July 19, 2013, 10:56:40 AM »

It sounds to me like you are admitting that tighar did not see the airplane in the video that was taken in 2010. How can you sue for fraud if even you are saying they did not analyze the video enough to know one way or the other until now?? Is your suit not based upon the fact that tighar had found the plane in 2010 yet still knowingly used your money for another search for said plane?? Just because they walked by a piece of evidence does not mean it was found...... you have to prove that they knowingly found it and misrepresented that fact. an ill-conceived, ill-managed expedition is not fraud

That's an excellent point, Kevin -- this post would seem to contradict the fundamental assertion of the suit.

Feel free to clarify if you feel differently, Tim. If you do, I'd add another follow-up: your last post laments that "the goal line should have been crossed by now" (referring to the verification of the wreckage you claim is documented in the 2010 footage). I understand from your POV why you feel that way, even though I don't agree with your findings. But again, supposing you're 100% right, how does the suit move anyone or anything closer to that goal line, yourself included? I think this is what so many of us struggle to comprehend. Even if we disagree with your opinions but can respect your right to interpret the data as you choose, this feels very much like you're blowing up the whole operation in retaliation for what you consider one failed or deliberately misdirected effort. It hurts TIGHAR, to be sure, but it also dramatically hurts any chance you have of moving your thesis forward. I realize I'm writing the same thing many others have expressed on this thread already, so my hopes for understanding remain tempered.

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Ric Gillespie

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #79 on: July 19, 2013, 11:32:28 AM »

How does the fund stand at the moment? How much more is needed?

Today the Legal Defense Fund balance is $5,970.  There have been 39 contributors.  Individual donations range from $5 to $2,500.  The most common amount is $100 (15 contributors at that amount).  Obviously we're going to need a lot more.  How much more will depend upon on how long the suit drags on.

Here's what's going to happen.  On Monday, we'll file a Motion for Dismissal.  The other side will have until August 15 to file a written response.  The judge will then rule on whether to dismiss the suit. Although in this case totally justified, Motions for Dismissal are also standard procedure and rarely granted. If the motion is not granted it does not mean that the suit has merit, only that the judge wants to hear more. That's fine.  We have lots to tell and nothing to hide.
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Scott C. Mitchell

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #80 on: July 19, 2013, 11:42:01 AM »

"That's an excellent point, Kevin -- this post would seem to contradict the fundamental assertion of the suit."

A wise philosopher once said: Contradictions do not exist.  If you think you are dealing with a contradiction, then check your premises.

Scott Mitchell
TIGHAR #3292
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Kevin Weeks

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #81 on: July 19, 2013, 12:05:19 PM »

"That's an excellent point, Kevin -- this post would seem to contradict the fundamental assertion of the suit."

A wise philosopher once said: Contradictions do not exist.  If you think you are dealing with a contradiction, then check your premises.

Scott Mitchell
TIGHAR #3292

and a good poet once said: “A successful lawsuit is one worn by a policeman” -frost
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Joshua Doremire

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #82 on: July 19, 2013, 12:23:57 PM »


Mr. Buttke, the point in time you are referencing in the above quote is now.

This point in time, given all the video information collected in 2010, should have occurred latest 2011, and should have led to the successful expedition you envisage in 2012.

TIGHAR failed, instead, to apply enough proficient analysis to the data. The 2012 expedition was, therefore, ill-conceived and ill-managed, employing the wrong equipment supplied by a less than competent sub-contractor.

In short, the goal line should have been crossed by now.

What other contractor should they have used? What better equipment? Extra cost? Recall the selected contractor managed to find some black boxes lots of other people/military (unlimited budget outfits) were not able to. Nothing wrong with hiring luck. If the sonar anomaly turns out to be the airplane you have luck. I say that due to the technical issues going on.
 
Looks like you were a major contributor for the 2012 expedition that made it even possible. There was no 2011 expedition due to funding no doubt. They have already admitted the 2012 mission was rushed in some ways due to politics: 2012 election, state department, etc. Let’s not forget the other expeditions that brought out clues to convince the public the mystery is solved.
 
After looking over the facts out there the mystery is solved. You have RDF direction finder logs, eyewitnesses to aircraft debris on the island… What stronger evidence is there than an eyewitness combined with historical logs? Bodies? That is already covered to some degree with the bones found and then lost.
 
Although I write that the mystery is solved I would love to see the smoking gun. And that is going to be parts of the actual aircraft as anything else is very hard to find and prove to the public. That is if it survived that long in that environment.
 
The images in the last newsletter from the video where the skull is pointed out I am reminded of the Ailenware PC logo. I just don’t see anything that I can make out as human remains.
 
If you feel the aircraft should have already been found I am curious as to how you think it should be found in detail. What outfit would you hire? How much do you estimate it would cost? How long would you say a search would take? I, as well as others, am a skeptic of anything in the 2010 video so I am not asking to get the answer of ‘it has already been found in that video’.
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Tim Mellon

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #83 on: July 19, 2013, 09:16:19 PM »

Jeff, this is a great example of how disinformartion gets a grip:

Quote
Did TIGHAR fail by not going specifically to that very place and shaking the dust off of those 'things' to see?  I'm sure all would love it had TIGHAR been able to do so, but as we know, finding the precise spot is problematic due to lack of specific location information, and because some of the features seen in 2010 may have moved on or been disturbed since, for whatever reasons.  We can also look keenly at these things, IMO, and make a reasonable argument that there is not enough present in that video to warrant the effort.

In reality, the 2012 videos (both Standard Definition and High Definition) with precise position (see Site #1 in Research Bulletin #63/65) show objects from the same Debris Field as the 2010 HD video.

The notion that the locatioin is "unknown" is a crock. 985 to 1010 feet deep due West of the presumed Nessie location.

You are correct that things have shifted somewhat in the intervening two years. But how would anyone know unless they carefully examined the videos. Have you? Have you even seen the sixteen minutes of High Definition video from 2012?
Tim
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PanAm Systems

TIGHAR #3372R
 
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 09:24:17 PM by Tim Mellon »
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Jeff Lange

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #84 on: July 20, 2013, 06:50:53 AM »

The bottom line in all of this is that every cent and every ounce of energy spent on defending this, or any lawsuit, whether frivolous or justified, is time and money NOT spent on solving the mystery that we all are here to solve. The way I view it, the only people who will come out ahead in this will be the lawyers, who will be paid regardless of which way the suit is decided.
Jeff Lange

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Dan Swift

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #85 on: July 22, 2013, 09:33:57 AM »

"Shapes", "Looks like's", "could be's", are nothing until the object is in hand or a clear picture of the object (uncovered) showing a name or number is at least 'readable'.  It reminds me of a box I shipped via UPS recently to an associate that contained two pair of high priced clothing, and UPS somehow switched the labels with another box (I believe it was theft but I didn't see it happen so this is just SPECULATION on my part) and when my associate opened the box to find some hoses and guages (have no idea what they were for)...well you can imagine the surprise to both of us.  Until the item is opened (coral removed) and phylically looked at, then NO ONE knows what is in the box or under the cover (coral).  NO ONE! 
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Jeff Buttke

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #86 on: July 22, 2013, 10:35:05 AM »

Tim,

It wasn't necessary for you to reply to my post.
Since you did I find it very interesting that your reply only focused on my "hypothetical scenario" and ignored the rest.

My point with the hypothetical scenario was to explain that even with evidence (more conclusive than your "evidence") that the expedition would still be necessary. You see, I was operating under the premise that your lawsuit was about TIGHAR withholding data in order to trick you into funding an unnecessary expedition. (A notion placed in my head by various news articles and public statements by your lawyer).
But from your reply I now realize that instead of fraud your lawsuit is about inept management (" ill-conceived and ill-managed, employing the wrong equipment supplied by a less than competent sub-contractor.")

Good luck, sounds like you will need it. The results (TIGHAR has to date) seem to disprove "ill-conceived and ill-managed, employing the wrong equipment". Especially if as you claim they found the plane (Something no one else has acheived , despite many, many , many others having tried. )


-Jeff



Quote
So let's say that the 2010 footage showed a piece of aircraft with a legible matching N-number.
Assuming no maliciously placed evidence, it would be quite conclusive.  Would even that eliminate the need for the next expedition?
Instead it would increase the need, value, and excitement of that mission.
After all at that point it moves TIGHAR's theories to the brink of confirmed fact.
This type of footage would change the next expedition in what activities and methods are used.
It would also change the possible out-come of success to the certainty of success.
But in no way would it eliminate the need for it.

Mr. Buttke, the point in time you are referencing in the above quote is now.

This point in time, given all the video information collected in 2010, should have occurred latest 2011, and should have led to the successful expedition you envisage in 2012.

TIGHAR failed, instead, to apply enough proficient analysis to the data. The 2012 expedition was, therefore, ill-conceived and ill-managed, employing the wrong equipment supplied by a less than competent sub-contractor.

In short, the goal line should have been crossed by now.
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Tim Mellon

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #87 on: July 22, 2013, 06:23:21 PM »

Read carefully, my friend:

   (1) Fraud
   (2) Negligence

Tim
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PanAm Systems

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Ric Gillespie

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Irvine John Donald

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #89 on: July 23, 2013, 12:07:16 PM »

Chris, I suspect a number of people are whacking their heads repeatedly.

I would like to offer my four cents worth.  Two cents to TIGHAR and Ric and two cents to Mr. Mellon.  Let me just say a few things first.

Mr. Mellon has the right to sue TIGHAR if he feels there was fraud and negligence.  That is his right.  He believes he was a victim.
Mr. Gillespie, on behalf of TIGHAR, claims he made no such representations.  There are none on this forum so, if he did make those representations, they would have to be in non-forum or private communications.  Only the discovery phase of the lawsuit would bring those out.  So both parties feel wronged.  Thats why there are courts and lawyers. 

However let me point out that IF TIGHAR goes to court and loses what do you think the headlines will be?  "Earhart Mystery Solved!!!"  For the courts would have to side with Mr. Mellon and declare that TIGHAR had found the evidence as shown in the 2010 video.  But wait!!  The courts cannot do that because the video is only video.  No recovered artifacts being held up in the courtroom with serial numbers engraved.  No DNA evidence taken from a skull.  No toilet paper with AE's intials on each roll.  In fact only a video that a court judge is not likely going to see much of anything in.

So could the court declare "Amelia Found" and BTW TIGHAR owes Mr. Mellon a few million.  I am no judge or jury so I simply pose the question.

My two cents to Ric and TIGHAR.  While Mr. Mellon and his lawsuit are a distraction they are real.  Mr. Mellon was a very welcome contributor last year and had new evidence been found then everyone would be whistling a different tune.  Take his lawsuit seriously.  He is serious.  And if the court finds that he is correct and you found the evidence in 2010 then be prepared to bask in the glory and reap the rewards.

My two cents to Mr. Mellon.  The court will find you to be an entrepreneur and a sophisticated investor who knows there are no guarantees in adventurous investments.  The hype from the State department and the Bevington Object, led a lot of people, including both you and me, to believe TIGHAR was very close to their goal.  But you chose to throw in with TIGHAR for opportunistic reasons I will assume.  Perhaps I assume wrongly, but why throw in now?  You didn't just win a lottery.  You knew of TIGHAR's efforts for many years.  I submit you got caught up, as did many people, in the hype.  Please drop your lawsuit Mr. Mellon.  Do you really believe Ric and TIGHAR guaranteed to find evidence?  Do you really believe Ric sat on the knowledge that the evidence was in the 2010 video and said nothing?  Really?  It serves no one in the ultimate goal to solve the mystery.  It looks like sour grapes because the glory wasn't there. 

There, I had to get that off my chest.  My opinion only.
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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