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Author Topic: Still from ROV video  (Read 1088572 times)

John Balderston

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1470 on: October 16, 2012, 07:40:09 AM »

John, it appears that the propeller blade, which you concluded in a prior post was in the 3/9 o'clock position, has been slightly bent aftwards at the tip, possibly from striking something on the reef during the landing. What do you think?

Tim, keeping in mind that I'm the guy that wondered if sand and coral was a radio receiver  :-[, yes, to my eye the prop is bent backwards, particularly the blade on the opposite side of the hub from our view.  On the viewer's side of the hub I think we see about half of the blade - the outer end is buried in the rubble.   

Attached is a snapshot from several seconds later later in the ROV video, with an inset of an undamaged prop.  Keep in mind the comparison isn't exact - the viewing angle is slightly different, and the blade pitch appears to be different (fine pitch in the inset; high pitch/feathered on the reef). 

One more thing - the "prop" on the reef is from the right engine vs. left engine in the inset - hence hub counterweights would appear to be on opposite sides of the blade.  However we are looking at the right-hand nacelle wreckage "upside down" so the view of the props is the same in both images.
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« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 10:54:09 AM by John Balderston »
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John Balderston

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1471 on: October 16, 2012, 08:15:06 AM »

John, I grant you that is an interesting 'cylinder-like' shape. . .Not saying it 'cannot be' a cylinder - it just seems most improbable and given nature's way with her own building materials we 'see' so many familiar shapes down there all the time. . .

Jeff, I'm pretty much on board with you here.  The longer I look at the debris the more I realize that real identification is best conducted by the professionals  ;D  That thought inspired me to break out the checkbook again for a little infusion to help keep the lights on at TIGHAR HQ.  Wish I could do more - maybe someday if I can get our squad of kiddos out of college. . . :-\
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1472 on: October 16, 2012, 02:43:03 PM »

I thought I'd chime in here for a minute. I detacted myself for awhile, and sat back to see what happens next. I have the utmost confidence in Ric, Jeff Glickman, etc for finding what is down there.
I was one of those guys that was seeing what I thought I wanted to see. As it turns out, I can see alot of coral, and some man-made stuff. Guess as I get older my eyes get worse!
I still hope that we fins the answers. I'm still hoping for a deep dive submirsible, to see whats really down there.
I didnt go away, although some of you may have wished that (!), just catching up on alot of other things.
Tom
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1473 on: October 18, 2012, 07:48:28 AM »

... anomolies recorded around 13:37:56 on the 2010 ROV video from Niku VI. 


Speaking of Niku VI anomolies, John, might I respectfully draw your attention to a frame at time 13:43:44:14? Do you see two round objects, each partially obscured by the "snow"? And just above the time stamp, can you see the two arcs of little tic marks? And further to the right, bottom, a shape that might also resemble a propeller tip? Any notions?
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« Last Edit: October 18, 2012, 07:52:08 AM by Tim Mellon »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1474 on: October 18, 2012, 08:40:27 AM »

Now here's another thought about the Niku VI video. The rope/cable intrigues me. A clear shot of the deeper end can be seen at frame 13:38:52:16, near the end of the 2 minutes. It looks to me like the upper end terminates at a steel ring, on the other side of which are attached two separate strands by similar knots. Further "down" (to the left) appears a flattened piece of metal. Almost like a bosun's chair, used to hoist crew members into the rigging.

One possibility is that the airplane crew found this apparatus while exploring the Norwich City, and borrowed it in an effort to secure the aircraft to something solid on the reef, like a boulder. When the plane was washed over the edge, the rope went with it. It seems strange to me that a rope this size, which I don't think could have been part of the Electra's cargo, can be seen running downhill adjacent to the anomolies that have been noted by John Balderston.
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John Balderston

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1475 on: October 18, 2012, 05:29:55 PM »

Speaking of Niku VI anomolies, John, might I respectfully draw your attention to a frame at time 13:43:44:14? Do you see two round objects, each partially obscured by the "snow"? And just above the time stamp, can you see the two arcs of little tic marks? And further to the right, bottom, a shape that might also resemble a propeller tip? Any notions?

Thanks Tim - my pleasure.  This camel-in-the-clouds club-member's opinion is that at 13:43:44 we are looking at the mangled inboard end of one of the outer wings.  Watching from the beginning of the video clip we seem to zoom in on a hunk of material, and we're looking a close-up image of small objects.  I think the round and tick mark objects are either fasteners or hardware for routing wiring, flight controls, hydraulics, etc.  I don't think we're seeing anything on the scale of a propeller. 

I've attached 13:43:44 frame 25 for reference (frame 25 seems to show the objects a little better than frame 14).  Looking closely, we see more parts than just the circular objects.  Looking into the cavity to the right of the "tick mark" object, to me it looks very much like we are seeing part of a large round hole.  A big round hole would be consistent with features of the Model 10's outer wing ribs (see second attached image). 

However, the key reason I think we're looking at outer wing wreckage is the view of debris we see 25 seconds or so earlier in the video (see third attachment).  To my eye the dark patterns in the right side of the image look very much like the numerals "O" and "2", as in the 5th and 6th characters of "NR16020".  On AE's Electra we find the registration number painted in large characters on the top of the right outer wing, and on the bottom of the left outer wing (see inset on the attachment).  I don't see a tie-down ring, so I think we're looking at the wreckage of the right outer wing broken back on itself at something between a 45 degree and 90 degree angle. 

Ok, that's my best "camel in the clouds" thinking!  Cheers, John
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« Last Edit: October 18, 2012, 05:57:24 PM by John Balderston »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1476 on: October 18, 2012, 06:41:05 PM »

Speaking of Niku VI anomolies, John, might I respectfully draw your attention to a frame at time 13:43:44:14? Do you see two round objects, each partially obscured by the "snow"? And just above the time stamp, can you see the two arcs of little tic marks? And further to the right, bottom, a shape that might also resemble a propeller tip? Any notions?

Thanks Tim - my pleasure.  This camel-in-the-clouds club-member's opinion is that at 13:43:44 we are looking at the mangled inboard end of one of the outer wings.  Watching from the beginning of the video clip we seem to zoom in on a hunk of material, and we're looking a close-up image of small objects.  I think the round and tick mark objects are either fasteners or hardware for routing wiring, flight controls, hydraulics, etc.  I don't think we're seeing anything on the scale of a propeller. 

I've attached 13:43:44 frame 25 for reference (frame 25 seems to show the objects a little better than frame 14).  Looking closely, we see more parts than just the circular objects.  Looking into the cavity to the right of the "tick mark" object, to me it looks very much like we are seeing part of a large round hole.  A big round hole would be consistent with features of the Model 10's outer wing ribs (see second attached image). 

However, the key reason I think we're looking at outer wing wreckage is the view of debris we see 25 seconds or so earlier in the video (see third attachment).  To my eye the dark patterns in the right side of the image look very much like the numerals "O" and "2", as in the 5th and 6th characters of "NR16020".  On AE's Electra we find the registration number painted in large characters on the top of the right outer wing, and on the bottom of the left outer wing (see inset on the attachment).  I don't see a tie-down ring, so I think we're looking at the wreckage of the right outer wing broken back on itself at something between a 45 degree and 90 degree angle. 

Ok, that's my best "camel in the clouds" thinking!  Cheers, John

John, I have several comments:

(1) Nothing wrong with your eyesight...IMHO!

(2) I concur with the opinion of a large lightening hole (right hand ponter), but also think there is a hole of equal dimension at the right end of the topmost line from the lefthand baloon.

(3) Multiple holes are consistent with the exposed rib-work in your second attachment.

(4) I am able to detect the "2" digit, but the "0" seems a bit too distant from the "2" if the registration number is as depiicted in the third attachment. Perhaps the wing has been wrenched apart between the two digits?

(5) At 13:43:30, frame 0, I see a planar surface slanting away from the viewer, including what looks like a row of 4 evenly spaced rivets in a 11/5 o'clock orientation, pointing towards the beginning of the time stamp.

Tim
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« Last Edit: October 18, 2012, 08:33:31 PM by Tim Mellon »
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tom howard

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1477 on: October 18, 2012, 07:16:18 PM »

... anomolies recorded around 13:37:56 on the 2010 ROV video from Niku VI. 


Speaking of Niku VI anomolies, John, might I respectfully draw your attention to a frame at time 13:43:44:14? Do you see two round objects, each partially obscured by the "snow"? And just above the time stamp, can you see the two arcs of little tic/ marks? And further to the right, bottom, a shape that might also resemble a propeller tip? Any notions?

Seems a lot of people are going to the 2010 video for camel watching.:)
I find myself doing it as I saw what looked like a tire and we have possible propellar blades being spotted, so stupid question, but why was the 2010 items on tape not brought up for identification in 2012? I know the mission in 2012 was not to retrieve anything but I am seeing this 2010 now for the first time really, and it has intersting stuff so would it have hurt to ask the niku rep before the last trip "hey some stuff we saw in 2010 looked intriquing can we bring it up now?"

i guess my question boils down to if it was possible manmade goods spotted in 2010 why are they still down there? If the frames were analyzed and determined to be norwich cuty, ok, then why are we looking at it again?(the forum members)
But If tighar determined the 2010 stills had unique and separate artifacts how long are they going to be left there and why not nab them in 2012? Or can they not be located again?


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Tim Mellon

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1478 on: October 18, 2012, 07:27:14 PM »

Speaking only for myself, Tom, I have only been seeing these 2010 videos for several weeks now. And I wasn't even aware that TIGHAR existed before May of this year. I think it's the case that new eyes see different things than eyes that have been programmed over time. I know my own eyes benefitted from all the real-time viewing during the VII expedition. The more folks that look, the more we will collectively find. I think the aggregate intelligence thus derived will best inform what the next action steps should be.

Tim
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1479 on: October 19, 2012, 07:20:38 AM »

I have a question for the Forum Guru (Father Moleski, Ric?):

Sufficient attention has been paid recently to interesting anomolies from the Niku VI video from 2010 that I'm wondering if it would be possible to bifurcate the "Still from ROV video" thread so that all comments subsequent to and including #1567 would appear in a new thread?

Perhaps the new thread could be titled "Balderston Debris Field" or, given recent posts, "The 2 Site".
Tim
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1480 on: October 19, 2012, 08:13:57 AM »

The 2 Site calling John Balderston:

Just on top of the circle of steel wire at 13:43:22, frame 29, appears to me to be two halves of a hinge. The left half appears to be bent up and over to 90 degrees from its original configuration, as if one side had been ripped away from the other. In asmuchas it is in close proximity to the "2" do you think it possible that this might be a flap or aileron hinge?
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« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 08:34:36 AM by Tim Mellon »
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1481 on: October 19, 2012, 09:13:18 AM »

I have a question for the Forum Guru (Father Moleski, Ric?):

I'm currently the thread manager for the Forum, for good or for ill.   ???

Quote
Sufficient attention has been paid recently to interesting anomolies from the Niku VI video from 2010 that I'm wondering if it would be possible to bifurcate the "Still from ROV video" thread so that all comments subsequent to and including #1567 would appear in a new thread?

Perhaps the new thread could be titled "Balderston Debris Field" or, given recent posts, "The 2 Site".

I'm pretty sure this whole thread is about the Niku VI video.  I don't have the heart to re-read it all to decide what is relevant to what.  Thread drift happens. 

My opinion is that the professionals who have looked at the Niku VI material did not judge it to be a debris field at all.  So far as I can tell from what has been said in public (here on the Forum, press releases, TV documentary, etc.), the area shown in the ROV video was not a major focus of the 2012 search.  Somewhere in this monster thread, Andrew McKenna made some very sensible remarks about scale issues that seem to me to disqualify what is seen in these frames as being part of the aircraft.  I'm under the gun right now, getting ready to head out for a long shift away from the keyboard, so I don't have time to track down McKenna's post just now ...
LTM,

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Tim Mellon

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1482 on: October 19, 2012, 11:28:23 AM »

Marty, thanks for responding.

I reviewed the entire thread, and you are correct, it is about Niku VI video all the way through. However, I did a search of the thread for "andrew mckenna" and the only hit was your very last post.

Further, I could find no mention of finding digits of the N number except those recent posts by John Balderston. So I think that whatever opinions were given by prior "experts", the evidence needs to be reviewed taking into account the most recent discoveries. When you have plausible arguments that parts of engines, wheels, landing gears, wing ribs, N-numbers, hinges, etc. etc. etc. can all be found within an area seemingly no larger than a basketball court, then experts need to revisit this important video in light of these new assertions.  My own un-expert opinion is that a large proportion, if not essentially the entire Earhart aircraft, lies in this one large heap of scrap. A giant vacuum cleaner, pointed in the opposite direction, is needed to blow away the loose snow-like covering to reveal even more evidence. And I don't think we can fail to find the aircraft at this location unless we just don't even try.

And I find it not credible that the area in question could not be found again, especially with the prominent marker provided by the stretched out rope.  What were the parameters of this particular dive? Certainly the starting and end ponts are known, along with the relevant times. Certainly an intelligrent estimate could be made of the rough location of the ROV at the times shown on the video. And who was looking in real time - Ric, Mark Smith, Megan Lickliter-Mundon? Maybe collectively they could provide a rough estimate of the location.

Again, I think it essential that more eyes get trained on this important two minute video. Has Jeff Glickman spent time looking at this video? We each have unique abilities when it comes to pattern recognition. Many sets of eyes have come up with very little of plausible value from the more recent VII debris field.

Before any plans are made to launch another expedition, I feel that prudence and intellectual honesty dictate that every effort be made to credit or discredit the assertions presented here.
Tim
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« Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 07:09:31 AM by Tim Mellon »
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Chris Johnson

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1483 on: October 19, 2012, 12:01:12 PM »

Tim/Marty,

I think it was Jeff Victor H who discussed scale as looking through Andrew Mac's posts I didn't see anything specific.

Tim, do a search on the word 'scale' and you should find the appropriate threads.

I do remember seeing a bivalve shell in one frame that gives a good indication of scale but you'll have to look out for it yourself  :(
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1484 on: October 19, 2012, 12:19:51 PM »

Before any plans are made to launch another expedition, I feel that prudence and intellectual honesty dictate that every effort be made to credit or discredit the assertions presented here.

Okay, this clearly needs some attention.  I'll ask Jeff Glickman to look at the Balderston Debris Field. 
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