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Author Topic: Still from ROV video  (Read 1072558 times)

John Joseph Barrett

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #480 on: January 27, 2012, 01:28:58 PM »

Not that I don't trust that what has been pointed out as aircraft parts may indeed be aircraft parts, but is it possible to have any of these images verified by an outside source who may be deemed to be more objective? We all want to see what we think we are seeing. I know Jeff Glickman has done photo imaging for TIGHAR in the past. I don't know what the cost would be, but I think that if the TIGHAR board could have a "professional" stamp of approval that what we think is here really is, it may help with the fundraising effort. I'm not sure if Ric is still following this thread or not, and I agree with him that a lot of what we may think we see might not really be, but if any of it is, then it may be worth the photo imaging costs up front to generate the interest and raise the funds for a more in depth (pardon the pun) search and possible recovery of wreckage. I would like to know, is this it? Trust me, I am not knocking the efforts put into searching the video images. I just think they would carry more weight if verified by an independent expert.  LTM. -John
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #481 on: January 27, 2012, 01:57:23 PM »

John---you can bet that RIC and others are following this thread. I would also think that Jeff Glickman, or others, are analyzing every piece of film, and still pic available. I say that, because without that evidence, the prospects of getting the big $$$ necessary for the equipment we all have talked about just wont happen. So, I bet every still that Richie and Jeff make available on this forum, Ric is looking at. And for what its worth, I'll bet 'others' are looking at it too.
Tom
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #482 on: January 27, 2012, 02:30:55 PM »


By Jove, Dan Swift, I believe you've got it!
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JNev

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #483 on: January 27, 2012, 02:37:32 PM »

Not that I don't trust that what has been pointed out as aircraft parts may indeed be aircraft parts, but is it possible to have any of these images verified by an outside source who may be deemed to be more objective? We all want to see what we think we are seeing. I know Jeff Glickman has done photo imaging for TIGHAR in the past. I don't know what the cost would be, but I think that if the TIGHAR board could have a "professional" stamp of approval that what we think is here really is, it may help with the fundraising effort. I'm not sure if Ric is still following this thread or not, and I agree with him that a lot of what we may think we see might not really be, but if any of it is, then it may be worth the photo imaging costs up front to generate the interest and raise the funds for a more in depth (pardon the pun) search and possible recovery of wreckage. I would like to know, is this it? Trust me, I am not knocking the efforts put into searching the video images. I just think they would carry more weight if verified by an independent expert.  LTM. -John

I agree with you John.  I don't wish to dampen enthusiasm at all - but to make serious progress and attract serious support for more searching on-site at Niku takes strong, independent resources to get convincing data.

I don't think TIGHAR's whole case for going back depends on finding 'something' in this footage.  But if a worthwhile object or two does appear, then it might be worth the objective scrutiny of someone like Glickman (and hopefully Glickman himself, who's done a lot of great work of this sort for TIGHAR already).

I can plink around with stills and shadows until I get all kinds of results with today's software - but I don't trust myself to be that objectively able to discern 'realities' in this murky area.  I saw a neat cloud or two today too... all I can say is that it was a good feeling to see that Mickey Mouse is up there watching over us...  Yes, objectivity and visible qualifications help - and in fact I think are ultimately vital to an outfit like TIGHAR for serious searching.

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richie conroy

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #484 on: January 27, 2012, 03:37:20 PM »

sorry to burst anyone's bubble but even if we find sum think, with NR16020 Tighar will not go back to that spot for the simple fact of the time it would take to locate area again an time is money, i know were seeing engine's, wings, wheels struts etc

but in this business u don't have the luxury to be able to go back and forth unfortunately, so what resources we do have we have to use wisely.

also before the wire an rope video, the Tighar hyposis had already in my eye's been proved fact not fiction, so really the video is irrelevant,

on a lighter note the video has proved for me anyway that Tighar's hyposis is right!! not that i doubted it, an it has been an exciteing experience to see some of the object'[s that people have been searching for, for over 75 years

 :) 



   
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richie conroy

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #485 on: January 27, 2012, 07:05:34 PM »

in answer to Ur question i have spent at least 5 hours a nite studying these still pics the last 2 weeks, rotating them, inverting them, adding shadows to them, highlighting different area's of them, high res, low res  un-sharpen un-blur, more blur more sharpen...

honestly i have had to av a break, because i thought i was imagining things that i was seeing, but am not!! the camera stays on wire an rope mostly  but when u start looking else were its hard to prove what Ur seeing because when u post still images people say they only see a blur, but when u re run the video u get a feel for the reef surface an start to notice the things that are not part of the reef,

an because the area's the debris is in are pitch black covered in sediment  it takes at least an hour to get a picture viewable to people who aint going over an over the footage

the thing with Photoshop cs5 extended, is how the gradient map  an stuff work, is because each pixel has a number code related to a color an it picks up the different color in anything even under sediment it processors it an displays the image so u begin to see shadows an outlines of objects that are unnoticeable to the naked eye   

an since i found this mini bridge magnifier on photoshop i have found even more stuff which i will post in due course 
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #486 on: January 27, 2012, 07:22:06 PM »

I believe that, in the absence of any other viable theory, that TIGHAR has the right theory and is what happened to AE and FN. But that's just me. (Probably a lot of the readers of this forum too). The problem is that you can't just declare you are right. You must have the facts, or evidence, to prove your right.  This thread has a ton of enthusiasm but no evidence as to what these images are.  TIGHAR has actual evidence already in hand. Glass, shoes, bones, post loss radio signal reports, native testimony, etc. It's very suggestive and strung together it's very compelling but TIGHAR needs either more evidence from this type of evidence or the "smoking gun".  This "smoking gun" evidence may be found on the island or under the surface of the ocean. Traditional archeology takes time. Exhausting, pain staking work covering only small patches of ground each year. Slow but it is pulling evidence out of Niku. But thr underwater search has a better chance of finding the bigger pieces of evidence.  Ric and TIGHAR have precious few dollars to do the kind of month in month out research I think they would like to do. The current ROV video should be examined by professionals of this visual type of research. IF, and it's a big IF in my humble opinion, there is real evidence to suggest TIGHAR should go back to that spot then it's better than starting to search somewhere else around the island. IF you have anything man made in this video then why would you NOT go back to this spot to search again?   A land archaelogy dig that finds artifacts doesn't stop and say "well now that we found something here let's leave it and go start somewhere else.". But TIGHAR has the ability, as someone else suggested in this thread, to use the video, IF it can be proven to show possible evidence, to use it to raise more funds from deeper pockets.  I suggest that we stop announcing the Electra has been found (boy who cried wolf story as to why) and get professionals to analyze that video.  It's either really helpful or it's not. Use TIGHAR's proven approach at cross checking and verifying evidence before we declare what has been found.
My humble opinion.

I think those who are spending so much time examining the video and their stills are to be commended. BUT. The DNA tests were done by experts, archaeology evidence examined by experts, post loss radio research done by experts, photos examined by experts, skeletal remains descriptions examined and reported by experts, etc, etc.  Let's get this video examined by experts. Richie, Jeff, and others. Great work but shouldn't the experts be examining this video? Or have I got my wires crossed and you are photographic experts. I don't mean to be disrespectful.  I would like to believe you are right.
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #487 on: January 27, 2012, 08:01:39 PM »

A thought popped into my head---What IF there is wreckage that we are seeing, and TIGHAR went back an found it. I would assume the the Govt of Kiribati woul dhave jurisdiction over any thing in their waters. So, I would guess that they would have the last word in whether Ric & Co could raise any submerged artifacts? Maybe Ric could chime in here--
Tom
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richie conroy

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #488 on: January 27, 2012, 08:24:57 PM »

i totally agree m8, professionals shud ov !! and probably have gone over these short video clips, but analysed what the video is called wire and rope,  not what is in the back ground which is understandable givin the fact the footage is ov were the electra went over reef edge, and is the main area Tighar wanted searching first, otherwise they would have started some were else if they thought the electra went down there,

so imagine being on boat, ur seeing man made objects on rov live playback ov were u think electra is, so it's easy to just focus on that...

if members remember a while back, i posted about the wire rope video cos there was other pieces ov rope not mentioned an givin the explanations for it i left it at that,

it werent till jeff hayden posted about it that i started reviewing it again

now i have more video still's of the area than youtube as video's..... an after weeks of analyse i am noticing in-differences in reef bed to suggest the objects we post are man made, an the  "i have found the electra post" i believe i have located it

its only when u start looking at enhanced images, compared to originals that it becomes apparent that their there,

an in none ov the videos is there outlines shadows that correspond with dimesions of the electra, apart from the snapshots av posted  of being electra, which i hope people in the know can dismiss or approve for my own frame of mind  ;)
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richie conroy

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #489 on: January 27, 2012, 08:31:19 PM »

if the electra was to be found bottom of reef on nikumorro, then imagine the tourism an money it would bring in to the colonies  from sightseers an stuff

so i think the goverment would allow them to raise artifacts for identification like wid the titanic

but doubt they would allow raiseing big parts off reef as the atolls of kirbati are already under protection   :)
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #490 on: January 27, 2012, 09:29:52 PM »


Richie and Jeff Victor
Thank you for all of the hard work that you guys have put in to analyze the ROV video.  I am impressed by the images and have no doubts that the items that you have highlighted are man-made and probably aircraft in nature.

The circle of cable with the T shaped handle and its connection with the picture of an Electra having such a cable is convincing.  I'm guessing here but the cable is probably for opening a vent to allow warm air into the cockpit (or cool air).

Too bad the GPS locator malfunctioned (or did it?) and it will be difficult to relocate the position versus time connection of each item seen in the images.

At any rate, congratulations!!
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JNev

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #491 on: January 27, 2012, 10:06:32 PM »

A thought popped into my head---What IF there is wreckage that we are seeing, and TIGHAR went back an found it. I would assume the the Govt of Kiribati woul dhave jurisdiction over any thing in their waters. So, I would guess that they would have the last word in whether Ric & Co could raise any submerged artifacts? Maybe Ric could chime in here--
Tom

I would be shocked if TIGHAR were free to start wrenching things free from the reef and hauling them up without permission from the Republic of Kiribati

Go back and read about every trip TIGHAR has made there - great pains are taken to work closely and in compliance with Kiribati's requirements.  It's about integrity in the relationship and preservation of precious resources that belong to a sovereign nation and people - it's not ours to plunder.

It's clear to me that TIGHAR realizes that sort of relationship is vital if they are to continue to have access and be able to reasonably exploit what findings may come.

This is not the sort of situation where someone should just pull up in a ship and start dragging the reef, or hauling up treasure.  Most of us never have to think about those things - or the level of proof needed to make claims of findings like lost Electras.  Irv touched on it very well though - TIGHAR has to act with integrity and objectivity, or there can be no 'announcement' - or approach to an entity like Kiribati to retrieve artifacts.

---

Richie, no offense intended toward your good work - you are far more capable at what you are doing than I could ever be.  It's very interesting to see your work as it progresses - and who knows?  Maybe you will turn over that magic rock on the reef by peeling the layers the way you are doing?  But the soul of solid science seems to be as Irv and others have suggested - claims very nearly need serial numbers in most cases when it comes to airplane artifacts, no matter how good the shadow-peeling is. 

TIGHAR learned that the hard way - and that's why we see such a conservative approach to big announcement of new 'proof'.

LTM -
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richie conroy

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #492 on: January 28, 2012, 06:21:57 AM »

none taken  :)
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #493 on: January 28, 2012, 07:24:09 AM »

Just a theory but, a while back I posted a still describing the 'black mark' as not being a mark at all but, a tear in a thin metal sheet. Well, here's the 'black mark again (red box). In the blue box there is metalwork that extends a line from 'the door' along parallel to the rope  to the metalwork pointed out with yellow lines. Now, IF it is a door and, IF it is a thin metal sheet with a tear in it MIGHT we be looking at the floor of a fuselage and, the remains of the side of a fuselage (yellow lines). Looking forward towards the main spar/wing area?
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #494 on: January 28, 2012, 07:44:32 AM »

Just to voice my opinion on points mentioned recently.
No, we shouldn't be allowed to go dredging the reef area for 'evidence'. Any recovery should be done with with the co-operation of the Republic of Kiribati and, in a scientific and respectful manner.
We don't know if it is aircraft wreckage yet (it looks promising though)
If it is aircraft wreckage, what aircraft is it?
Remember ww2 raged for years in the Pacific with tens of thousands of aircraft, we could be looking at one of them!
I have experience of 'hunting' for objects in images transmitted via (not allowed to say) until I retire in April. My sister is a professional photographer and, I used to be a marksman using the FN 7.62mm SLR during my military service so, my eyesight was and, still is pretty good. I have worked in the aero industry mainly on fire protection systems and oil mist detectors for aircraft and military vehicles so I have an inkling as to what aircraft structures look like (or used to look like) in this case.

Jeff
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