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Author Topic: Could AE and FN have known it was named "Norwich City"?  (Read 108812 times)

Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Could AE and FN have known it was named "Norwich City"?
« Reply #60 on: April 05, 2011, 06:17:41 AM »

... Here is what Sir Ernst Gombrich said about his experiences listening to radio transmissions during the Second World War:

Quote
I was employed for six years by the British Broadcasting Corporation in their "Monitoring Service," or listening post, where we kept constant watch on radio transmissions from friend and foe. It was in this context that the importance of guided projection in our understanding of symbolic material was brought home to me. Some of the transmissions which interested us most were barely audible, and it became quite an art, or even a sport, to interpret the few whiffs of speech sound that were all we really had on the wax cylinders on which these broadcasts had been recorded. It was then we learned to what extent our knowledge and expectations influence our hearing. You had to know what might be said in order to hear what was said. More exactly, you tried from your knowledge of possibilities certain word combinations and tried projecting them into noises heard. The problem was a twofold one---to think of possibilities and to retain one's critical faculty. . . . For this was the most striking experience of all: once your expectation was firmly set and your conviction settled, you ceased to be aware of your own activity, the noises appeared to fall into place and be transformed into the expected words. So strong was this effect of suggestion that we made it a practice never to tell a colleague our own interpretation if we wanted him to test it. Expectation created illusion.

An interesting quotation. 

What is the source?  "Intelligent Life on Mars"?

Note that the quotation supports the idea that expectation not only "created illusion" but also intelligibility: "You had to know what might be said in order to hear what was said." 

We are all bringing our interpretive expectations to bear on Betty's notebook when we debate what she could or should have heard and understood.  Our imaginative reconstruction of the scene in her home is as much affected by expectations as was her experience of listening to the radio as a young girl.

LTM,

           Marty
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david alan atchason

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Re: Could AE and FN have known it was named "Norwich City"?
« Reply #61 on: April 05, 2011, 08:30:27 AM »

I know this sounds far-fetched. When I was telling my British friend about the Norwich City, she said, "You know we pronounce it Norridge City" sounds like "porrige". Would AE have been likely to use that pronunciation, having traveled to England, I think? To someone like Betty maybe "norrige" would have been hard for her to make sense of.
I would like to apologize for some of my comments that are ignorant of the research that has already been done. I keep finding new facts on this website because I haven't gotten around to reading everything yet, my fault.
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Kevin Weeks

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Re: Could AE and FN have known it was named "Norwich City"?
« Reply #62 on: April 05, 2011, 09:07:57 AM »

I know this sounds far-fetched. When I was telling my British friend about the Norwich City, she said, "You know we pronounce it Norridge City" sounds like "porrige". Would AE have been likely to use that pronunciation, having traveled to England, I think? To someone like Betty maybe "norrige" would have been hard for her to make sense of.
I would like to apologize for some of my comments that are ignorant of the research that has already been done. I keep finding new facts on this website because I haven't gotten around to reading everything yet, my fault.

my guess (and only a guess) on this one would be no. We are spending much discussion just contemplating if she would know the ships name, my guess is she wouldn't know that it was a british ship and have used a standard "american" pronunciation. Noonan having been in the navy may have known but does it really matter that much??
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Kevin Weeks

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Re: Could AE and FN have known it was named "Norwich City"?
« Reply #63 on: April 05, 2011, 10:40:27 AM »

so much research has been going on for so long that it really is hard to find that gem of a stone these great researchers haven't already at least peaked under! Ric has done an amazing job keeping this research in the correct direction and moving forward and Mr. moleski has done great work keeping things organized so that we humble outsiders may try to keep up and learn from them.

I am really no different than you in the "armchair speculator" position. Has been something that intrigued me since I was a child.
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Could AE and FN have known it was named "Norwich City"?
« Reply #64 on: April 05, 2011, 11:43:01 AM »

... Mr. moleski has done great work keeping things organized ...

Thanks for the kind words, but again it is important that we all give credit where credit is due.

Pat Thrasher is the webmistress and organizer par excellence.  She is responsible for assembling thousands of pages of content on the website, including all of the Research Bulletins and TIGHAR Tracks.  I've tried, along with others, to pull some of that information together in the Ameliapedia and to provide pointers to it in the Forum.

I think it's pretty safe to say that we wouldn't be here today if it weren't for Pat.
LTM,

           Marty
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Don Dollinger

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Re: Could AE and FN have known it was named "Norwich City"?
« Reply #65 on: April 05, 2011, 12:24:48 PM »

Quote
I know this sounds far-fetched. When I was telling my British friend about the Norwich City, she said, "You know we pronounce it Norridge City" sounds like "porrige". Would AE have been likely to use that pronunciation, having traveled to England, I think? To someone like Betty maybe "norrige" would have been hard for her to make sense of.

Lived in England for 3 years.  They have distincly different pronunciations of certains words as well as different meanings and even spellings and although we picked up a bit of an accent we still used the pronunciations we knew while there and after our return, so I find it hard to swallow that someone would pick them up just because they have been there before.  As I was kindly reminded by a good friend of mine (an Enlishman) on more then one occassion "you don't speak English, you speak American".

Since we are speculating, perhaps what she heard was simply "Norwich", "Norwich" numerous times.  A thread awhile back expounded on the way that the ship name "could've" been placed on the ship and whether it was even legible at the time AE & FN would have been stranded there.  Could be that only the Norwich portion of the name was still legible at the time from their vantage point and they not knowing anything about the wreck could have simply thought that Norwich was the ship name. 

LTM,

Don
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Chris Johnson

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Re: Could AE and FN have known it was named "Norwich City"?
« Reply #66 on: April 05, 2011, 01:10:05 PM »

Lived in England for 3 years.  They have distincly different pronunciations of certains words as well as different meanings and even spellings and although we picked up a bit of an accent we still used the pronunciations we knew while there and after our return, so I find it hard to swallow that someone would pick them up just because they have been there before.  As I was kindly reminded by a good friend of mine (an Enlishman) on more then one occassion "you don't speak English, you speak American".

Since we are speculating, perhaps what she heard was simply "Norwich", "Norwich" numerous times.  A thread awhile back expounded on the way that the ship name "could've" been placed on the ship and whether it was even legible at the time AE & FN would have been stranded there.  Could be that only the Norwich portion of the name was still legible at the time from their vantage point and they not knowing anything about the wreck could have simply thought that Norwich was the ship name. 

LTM,

Don

FWIW iwas born and raised in the South West of England but have lived in the North West for over half my life.  My wife has lived in the North West all of her life and we prenounce so many words differently.

A good test would be to see how an american who has no knowledge of the vessel prenounces the word.

And yes the Colour of it is that I speak english whilst others speak American ;)
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Kevin Weeks

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Re: Could AE and FN have known it was named "Norwich City"?
« Reply #67 on: April 05, 2011, 01:26:05 PM »

oh boy, this could get bad. what happens if we find some of that rare british al-looo-min-eee-um on the island lol


accents are different here in the states as well. even in the same state you can have completely different accents. take boston for instance. they don't pronounce their R's correctly. (pahk the cah in hahvahd yahd). whilst i'm from the western part of the state where we think they sound ridiculous. Unfortunately the entire country thinks boston encompasses the entire state of massachusetts so we get the "your not from massachasetts, you don't pahk the cah" from anyone not from new england!
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Chris Johnson

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Re: Could AE and FN have known it was named "Norwich City"?
« Reply #68 on: April 05, 2011, 01:30:10 PM »

oh boy, this could get bad. what happens if we find some of that rare british al-looo-min-eee-um on the island lol


accents are different here in the states as well. even in the same state you can have completely different accents. take boston for instance. they don't pronounce their R's correctly. (pahk the cah in hahvahd yahd). whilst i'm from the western part of the state where we think they sound ridiculous. Unfortunately the entire country thinks boston encompasses the entire state of massachusetts so we get the "your not from massachasetts, you don't pahk the cah" from anyone not from new england!

Al-u-mini-um ;)

I'll stop now before Ric rides in clapping his half coconuts together  :D
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david alan atchason

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Re: Could AE and FN have known it was named "Norwich City"?
« Reply #69 on: April 05, 2011, 02:07:43 PM »

I'm getting up from my armchair now to beat a dead horse. It occurred to me that the news of the Norwich City would have been a prominent news story in those days, at least in the Pacific area. Unless it was relegated to the back pages of the Sydney Gazette under "Shipping News". Plus there was a dramatice rescue. I can understand a teenager in Florida would not have heard of it, but isn't there a good chance that a knowledgeable Pacific navigator like Fred would have? As a glaring example of navigation gone very wrong? Isn't it possible that Fred knew the name of the wreck w/o even seeing the painted name? That he surmised they were on Gardner? Maybe they sent messages to that effect, but nobody heard them. What puzzles me is that they made no attempt to describe their location on any received message. Or did they? Was the whole US Navy unaware of the shipwreck or just the pilots? Were there numerous large shipwrecks on many island groups back then? I am guessing there was not. Yes, I know, most anything COULD have happened and we can't read Fred's mind now. Whether he knew or not, it was no help,
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Could AE and FN have known it was named "Norwich City"?
« Reply #70 on: April 05, 2011, 06:11:46 PM »

Norwich City went aground in 1929.  It was big news in the Times of London and probably in Australia but not in the U.S.
Fred sailed mostly out of New York and New Orleans.  He wasn't an old Pacific hand.
If you knew your were on Gardner Island why on earth would you talk about Norwich City or "ship on reef southeast of Howland."  I'd be saying, "We're on Gardner Island. Gardner, Gardner, Gardner."
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: Could AE and FN have known it was named "Norwich City"?
« Reply #71 on: April 05, 2011, 08:00:13 PM »

Then since there is no evidence of any report saying "Gardner, Gardner, Gardner" it suggests they did not know the name of the island.

I agree that Fred and AE "should" have had charts with the island names on them. Fred "should" have charted the position and known which island they were opting to land on. They "should" have mentioned it in every second sentence they uttered into the radio, but they didn't. They could have decided "not" to mention the island's name in radio messages but I can't think of any logical reason to do that. Hence I am left with evidence that "suggests" they did not know the name of the island. Hard to believe but someone recently asked what state the charts were in for this area. As there seemed to be a lot of surveying and mapping going on just prior to WWII, is it possible the charts of the day used by Fred did not have the name of Gardner Island on them?  The surveying and mapping may have come about from the authorities all deciding the state of charts in this area of the Pacific were very poor in light of the disappearance of AE and Fred.  Or was it just the threat of war in the region?
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Bruce Thomas

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Re: Could AE and FN have known it was named "Norwich City"?
« Reply #72 on: April 05, 2011, 08:27:48 PM »

If you knew you were on Gardner Island why on earth would you talk about Norwich City or "ship on reef southeast of Howland."  I'd be saying, "We're on Gardner Island. Gardner, Gardner, Gardner."
For those new to the Forum, who haven’t had the benefit of years of wading through the numerous documents on the TIGHAR website, you should know that Ric’s use of the phrase “ship on reef southeast of Howland” is rooted in the story of another teenager who, like Betty Klenck, seems to have heard AE on his radio.  You'll definitely want to read the story of Dana Randolph.
LTM,

Bruce
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Ashley Such

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Re: Could AE and FN have known it was named "Norwich City"?
« Reply #73 on: April 05, 2011, 09:37:22 PM »

For those new to the Forum, who haven’t had the benefit of years of wading through the numerous documents on the TIGHAR website, you should know that Ric’s use of the phrase “ship on reef southeast of Howland” is rooted in the story of another teenager who, like Betty Klenck, seems to have heard AE on his radio.  You'll definitely want to read the story of Dana Randolph.

Thanks for the link, Bruce; it was an interesting article!

One thing: Since the article stated that *if so* Amelia reported, "Ship is on a reef south of the equator", wouldn't she know exactly where she was (as to what island; e.g. Gardner)? Unless for whatever reason, the maps were gone?
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Chris Johnson

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Re: Could AE and FN have known it was named "Norwich City"?
« Reply #74 on: April 06, 2011, 02:02:27 AM »

For those new to the Forum, who haven’t had the benefit of years of wading through the numerous documents on the TIGHAR website, you should know that Ric’s use of the phrase “ship on reef southeast of Howland” is rooted in the story of another teenager who, like Betty Klenck, seems to have heard AE on his radio.  You'll definitely want to read the story of Dana Randolph.

Thanks for the link, Bruce; it was an interesting article!

One thing: Since the article stated that *if so* Amelia reported, "Ship is on a reef south of the equator", wouldn't she know exactly where she was (as to what island; e.g. Gardner)? Unless for whatever reason, the maps were gone?

Ship? Another name for plane? or reference to a ship (vessel).  Any pilots shed some light on this?
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