Could AE and FN have known it was named "Norwich City"?

[Bruce Thomas]

One thing: Since the article stated that *if so* Amelia reported, "Ship is on a reef south of the equator", wouldn't she know exactly where she was (as to what island; e.g. Gardner)? Unless for whatever reason, the maps were gone?

And so we've come full circle:  did any charts available to AE/FN even note that a ship lay wrecked on the reef at Gardner Island?  Looking at charts for the early part of the 20th century show that they were woefully wrong as to the true shape of this atoll.  The New Zealand expedition's work (note:  after 1937) produced a very good representation.  And then USS Bushnell comes on its heels with another surveying expedition.  And Cmdr. Coleman, Bushnell's captain, in his reports back to the Hydrographer of the U.S. Navy, methodically describes this prominent landmark and seems to go to great lengths to ascertain the shipwreck's name.  It makes for a delicious mystery:  how quickly would AE & FN been able to determine which of those Phoenix Island volcanic atolls they'd set down upon, given the state of charts of the day, and then how would they try to supplement their description with on-the-ground facts?

Chris' question in the following entry shows how the mystery deepens:  would a downed aviator be describing a five thousand ton freighter or her own aircraft in saying "ship on reef"? 

[Ric Gillespie]

I wonder whatever came of the request to TIGHAR members to scan local library newspaper archives for reports of receptions during the four days immediately post-loss?

Many did, and we found a few more interesting "hits."  We're putting the finishing touches on a comprehensive catalog of reported post-loss receptions.  Fascinating stuff.

[david alan atchason]

It sounds like it would be difficult to survive very long on Gardner if they didn't find water somewhere right away. I wouldn't want to be stranded there without reading in advance about how to survive there. I probably wouldn't have thought of coconuts, even though somewhere, as a kid, I drank fresh coconut milk. It doesn't seem, from what I have read of them, that Amelia and Fred BONED up on survival techniques in advance. (Couldn't resist using that word.) It occurred to me in listening to Betty's account, that Fred sounds like he is having heatstroke. If he was, he wouldn't have lasted long. In my opinion.

[david alan atchason]

Sorry, I meant they DIDN'T learn survival techniques on coral atolls in advance.

[Ashley Such]

Ship? Another name for plane? or reference to a ship (vessel). Any pilots shed some light on this?

I'm not a pilot, but I know AE (from reading her Last Flight book) would sometimes call her Electra "ship". Either that or maybe she would be referring to the Norwich City so the searchers can know what to look for to spot her and Fred?

Thanks for your response, Bruce!

[Bill Lloyd]

Ship? Another name for plane? or reference to a ship (vessel).  Any pilots shed some light on this?

In my experience it is fairly common to refer to an aircraft as the "ship". In Vietnam we had gunships and lift ships. Common lingo in a combat assault was "gunship prep of the landing zone (LZ) at 0800 followed immediately by insertion of the lift ships". Other lingo was "preflight ships at 30 minutes before sunrise", "my ship has taken hits in the tail boom" and so on.

[Chris Johnson]

It sounds like it would be difficult to survive very long on Gardner if they didn't find water somewhere right away. I wouldn't want to be stranded there without reading in advance about how to survive there. I probably wouldn't have thought of coconuts, even though somewhere, as a kid, I drank fresh coconut milk. It doesn't seem, from what I have read of them, that Amelia and Fred BONED up on survival techniques in advance. (Couldn't resist using that word.) It occurred to me in listening to Betty's account, that Fred sounds like he is having heatstroke. If he was, he wouldn't have lasted long. In my opinion.

David, try this thread about finding water in Niku its buried a few pages back and you might not have seen/read it?

Thought for the day 'preview prevents basic errors'  ;D

[david alan atchason]

Thanks Chris, I'll look at that. I find there is a learning process just to use this site and forum and find everything there is to read, never mind learning about islands, planes, radios here and elsewhere. Even for someone of superior intelligence like me. (LOL) I need a CRASH course, evidently.

[david alan atchason]

I get so caught up in this now I am even replying to myself. I read your link and it wasn't apparent to me what they feasibly could have done to secure fresh water. After they used up whatever they had brought in the plane, and maybe lapped up some water from tree roots, what then? I think they could have started a fire, probably one or both of them smoked, but what good is that? It seems like water was a big issue for the NC survivors, couldn't they have accessed pots or pans from their ship to distill water? The water tank they found (I think) they didn't utilize for whatever reason. Even if it was sound, would the rainfall on Niku surpass the evaporation rate so that there would be any water in the tank except maybe a layer of wet mud on the bottom?

I looked up Captain Manning, saw that he was exactly the man for the job, not Noonan, and he was "trained in survival techniques". Maybe for shipwreck survivors washed up on desert island? Did he ever comment after their loss on what he thought? That would be very interesting to hear, but probably he kept his mouth shut. I suppose criticizing Amelia would be like criticizing Mom and apple pie at the time.

[david alan atchason]

I have been reading up on Amelia.......her crash record: Was that about average for an aviator in those days, like crashed 5 or 6 times or more, totalled a couple planes? Like she did? At least it indicates she must have been wearing her seat belts. Then her radio knowledge. It sounds like she was depending on Manning, without him she was virtually incompetent, Fred wasn't much help.
So, anyway, they land on Niku. I accept that. I would say they barely survived for the few days of credible radio messages. By then they were dehydrated and/or had sunstroke which I think would account for their apparent behavior on the Betty radio reception. I believe they were dead by the time the search planes arrived. As for the signs of recent habitation the flyers described, what could A & F done in the week or less that would have appeared like "habitation"? They might have had a campfire, but building habitation  seems like a big stretch for them. Too bad nobody asked the flyer at the time what kind of habitation that was. I would also like to learn about the coconut business in those days. Would it have been worthwhile for someone with a boat to visit one of these deserted islands, gather up a few years worth of growth, and sell their harvest for a few bucks? Maybe even stay a couple weeks doing that?

[Chris Johnson]

As it's a bit quiet thought I'd re visit this thread.  When this thread was last live I was going some research when I came across a picture of supplies from an early 20th C life boat.

I'll hold my hands up as I don't have a link but the name of the ship was on a barrel that may or may not have been for water.

So it is possible that AE/FN could have got the name of the ship from stores that they found.

Before or after the plane went over the edge is anybody's guess.

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

As it's a bit quiet thought I'd re visit this thread.  When this thread was last live I was going some research when I came across a picture of supplies from an early 20th C life boat.

I'll hold my hands up as I don't have a link but the name of the ship was on a barrel that may or may not have been for water.

So it is possible that AE/FN could have got the name of the ship from stores that they found.

Before or after the plane went over the edge is anybody's guess.

Rick Jones has done a lovely article on the Norwich City.  The seventh section lists some of the supplies that might have come from the cache left by the survivors.

[Chris Johnson]

Read that today and also signed up with these guys ships nostalgia as i grew up in a port (Bideford the final registerd port of the SS Norwich City) and also worked in shipping with the Furness Withy Group and Hamburg Sued.

[Don Dollinger]

So it is possible that AE/FN could have got the name of the ship from stores that they found.

Before or after the plane went over the edge is anybody's guess.

Not tryng to be facetious or snarky BUT the whole reason, as I saw it, that this came up was to ascertain whether or not they were saying "Norwich City" versus "New York City" on the radio as indicated in Betty's notebook.  That being said if it was being said over the radio it would obviously be BEFORE the plane went to Davy Jones' locker ;)

LTM,

Don

[h.a.c. van asten]

It is remarkable that , according to the notebook , mr.Noonan and Amelia had extensive conversation , without transmitting their position which was easily to be established by two sights on the sun , or on stars and moon , or comparing the compass point with sun´s azimuth as an indication , and even better by the much critisized (good word ?) sunrise or sunset fix : nothing more than the navigation table needed .