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[Ric Gillespie]

The signal that it's over may not be a thunderclap, but rather a silence.

Not with a bang, but a whimper?   Perhaps .... but I'm going for the thunderclap.

[Walter Runck]

Not with a bang, but a whimper?   Perhaps .... but I'm going for the thunderclap.

I'm shocked, shocked!

Actually, I'm looking forward to a real big bang.

[Ric Gillespie]

Thinking about the restraints, not shoulder but waste only and automobile accidents would a waste only restraint not allow AE to have a chest impact with the steering column (not the correct term) or yoke? and thus not suffer more traumatic injuries?

I don't know about automobile accidents, but in aviation accidents the pilot - who is holding the yoke - is often able to use it to brace him/herself. 

[Ric Gillespie]

An after thought but if AE was able to brace herself, could FN have also done something?

Fred would probably be in the copilot seat.  There is some evidence that the yoke on the right side had been removed, possibly to give him more room.

[John Joseph Barrett]

As an accident reconstrutionist I can tell you that the problem in auto accidents, especially pre-shoulder restraint days, was that the steering wheel spokes would fold back during the collision, allowing the driver's chest to contact the steering wheel hub, resulting in a flail chest injury if not a complete impalement on the steering shaft. These shafts used to be a one-piece rod from the wheel to the gearbox. They now use a collapsible joint to alleviate this. Even so, it is still common to find the rim of the wheel distorted and pushed down toward the dash, even in crashes where the driver was restrained and the airbag deployed. There is an incredible amount of energy that is dissipated during a collision. I imagine that in the confined space of the Electra cockpit there were any number of hard points that could have caused injury to our duo, especially if restrained only by lap belts. AE probably would fair better having the yoke to brace herself and at least reduce her impact with the panel. Poor Fred would probably be folded over at the waist, possibly injuring his back, breaking an arm/wrist, and contacting the panel with his head. I've never seen the inside of an Electra cockpit and don't know how tall Fred was, but the opportunity for injury is definately there and higher for him than for AE.

[Ric Gillespie]

I've never seen the inside of an Electra cockpit and don't know how tall Fred was, but the opportunity for injury is definately there and higher for him than for AE.

I agree. An Electra cockpit, like the cockpits of many aircraft of that era, was more cramped than we're accustomed to today. Windshields in particular were smaller and much closer to the cockpit crew than is common today. Fred was just over six feet tall. 

The circumstances of the landing are, of course, unknown but if there was a sudden deceleration it was not sufficient to pitch the aircraft up on its nose or bend the props.  The most likely scenario, if there was an accident at all, would seem to be for a wheel to hit to a depression that caused the plane to groundloop - maybe collapsing a gear leg, maybe not.  The right hand wheel hitting a hole would cause the aircraft to rotate violently clockwise around the right hand gear leg, throwing the occupants forward and to the left. Conversely, the left wheel hitting a hole would cause a counter-clockwise rotation, throwing the occupants forward and to the right. In that scenario, Earhart would probably be okay but Fred could hit his head on the cockpit side windows or posts. A left hand gear collapse would probably leave the right hand, generator-equipped engine operable.  Speculation, but a counterclockwise groundloop and left hand gear collapse appears to be consistent with suggestions of a Noonan head injury and Earhart's ability to run the right hand engine to recharge the batteries.

[Jay Burkett]

All,

1.  Where would FN have been sitting in the aircraft?  At least for one flight I remember the navigator being seated in the aft cabin --- aft of the cabin fuel tanks.  The reference, as I recall, mentioned notes being passed to AE across the top of the fuel tanks.  Would he have been in the aft cabin?  If so this would have increased the likelihood that FN would have been injured and/or trapped as the result of a hard landing?

2.  Was it possible to move from the co-pilot's seat to the navigator's table in the aft fuselage?  If so what kind of contortions would have been required?

3.  Is there any known tendency for the Electra's fuselage to fail at a certain place as the result of hard/off-field landing?  Some aircraft have structural weaknesses that seem to show up during hard landings.  The B-24 had such a weakness.  The fuselage would fail immediately at or just aft of the cockpit during a during  a hard landing.  Landings, that exhibited such, quite frequently injured or killed the flight crew.  Did such a weakness exist in the Model 10E fuselage?

4.  What type of personal restraints would have been installed?  Were only seat belts installed or were fiive-point harnesses? What about in the navigator's seat?  There is a wealth of accounts where pilot's head struck the instrument panel (or, for fighter pilots, the gun sight) when the cotton webbing of the seat belt or harness broke during a hard landing or ditching.

5. Do the drawings exist that were used to modify the interior cabin of the Electra?  I'm thinking specifically those that installed the navigator's table, the seat and the fuel tanks.  If available they could help us understand whether or not these structures could be expected to remain intact after a hard landing.

These questions have been nagging me for a while.  If FN was seated it the aft cabin, displaced/damaged fuel tanks, chart table or seat would have increased the likelihood of entrapment and /or injury.  Likewise, if he was seated in the co-pilot's seat having the fuel tanks break free would have been equally problematic.  For a modern crash investigation all of these I would come under investigation.  I would appreciate any information on these questions. 

Jay

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

1.  Where would FN have been sitting in the aircraft?  At least for one flight I remember the navigator being seated in the aft cabin --- aft of the cabin fuel tanks.  The reference, as I recall, mentioned notes being passed to AE across the top of the fuel tanks.  Would he have been in the aft cabin?  If so this would have increased the likelihood that FN would have been injured and/or trapped as the result of a hard landing?

We need a FAQ for this, if it doesn't exist already.  I don't have the energy to compose one today.

Please distinguish carefully between the first and second round-the world attempts.

In the first, the navigator had to work from the navigator's station in the back because there was a four-person crew from California to Hawaii and a three-person crew on the failed takeoff from Lae.  The airframe was repaired and reconfigured for the second attempt by Earhart and Noonan alone.

From the Forum Archives:

Date:         Tue, 26 May 1998 09:25:44 EDT
From:        Barbara Wiley
Subject:      Noonan in cockpit

There was no room in the cockpit for Noonan.  His area was in the back of the fuselage situated behind extra fuel tanks having been installed for greater fuel capacity.  The "fishing pole" message system, whereby Noonan and AE communicated with written notes was necessary due to the limited space in the Electra.

When you say, "Noonan....'most of the time in the cockpit'...", I do not understand?
**************************************************************

From Ric

The idea that Noonan rode only in the back and communicated via the "fishing pole" system is myth.

There are numerous references in Last Flight to Fred being in the cockpit. For example:  In the "Dakar" chapter, " (A)s we munched (peanuts) Fred and I might have been in the bleachers of a ball-game back home, instead of in the cockpit of a plane spanning remote deserts."

Sequential photos taken of AE and FN boarding the plane in San Juan, exiting the plane in Lae, and film of boarding the plane for the last takeoff in Lae, all show them both using the forward hatch.  Fred always climbs in first and exits after AE.

2.  Was it possible to move from the co-pilot's seat to the navigator's table in the aft fuselage?  If so what kind of contortions would have been required?

Yes, it was possible.  Going from front to back was necessary to access the toilet.  There was an autopilot on board, but I doubt that AE would have left the front cockpit empty while taking a break to answer nature's call.  [Yes, I'm speculating; no, I don't have any evidence to back up this speculation.]  Noonan held a pilot's license.  Even though he was not certified to fly the Electra solo, it seems reasonable to me that he would have monitored the flight while AE was in the lav or otherwise taking a break in the back of the plane.

5. Do the drawings exist that were used to modify the interior cabin of the Electra?  I'm thinking specifically those that installed the navigator's table, the seat and the fuel tanks.  If available they could help us understand whether or not these structures could be expected to remain intact after a hard landing.

The Harney drawings are your best point-of-departure for answering questions like that.  I don't have a set yet and doubt that I could read them very intelligently even if I did.  Once you've examined them, then you could ask about his sources ...

[david alan atchason]

Speaking of the failed takeoff in Hawaii, that didn't seem to injure anybody on the plane, and looking at the picture at Luke Field, it appears the landing gear was broken on both sides. As for Fred hitting his head, there would be no reason for the plane to come to an abrupt stop, if the landing gear was broken I assume the plane would slide, and the reef has been described as being nice and smooth, perhaps better than some landing fields. I still don't know how badly you would have to damage a propeller before the engine wouldn't run. Obviously, (so I say) if the propeller shaft was bent that would be bad, but couldn't the engine run with bent blades? I am hoping an aircraft mechanic will magically appear on the forum to answer my engine questions.

[david alan atchason]

Here I go, replying to myself again. Rereading Ric's last post, he raises the possibility of "holes" in the reef. I thought I was assured in some prior exchange on this forum, that the reef was a wonderful place to land, no obstacles at all. So my question is, did anybody see any rough spots on the reef or cracks or holes that would possibly interfere with a nice landing?

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

... looking at the picture at Luke Field ...

Please insert the image in your post or provide a link to the page that has the image.

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

... I thought I was assured in some prior exchange on this forum, that the reef was a wonderful place to land, no obstacles at all. ...

Please find the prior exchange and tell us where it is.  Then we will be able to evaluate:

• What you said.
• What your respondent said.
• Your current interpretation of what was said.

How do I find my own posts?

How do I find the link (URL) for a particular post?

How do I insert links into posts?

[Ric Gillespie]

if the landing gear was broken I assume the plane would slide,

But you wouldn't be able to send radio distress calls for several days.

and the reef has been described as being nice and smooth, perhaps better than some landing fields.

It's good but it's not perfect.

I still don't know how badly you would have to damage a propeller before the engine wouldn't run. Obviously, (so I say) if the propeller shaft was bent that would be bad, but couldn't the engine run with bent blades? I am hoping an aircraft mechanic will magically appear on the forum to answer my engine questions.

I'm not an aircraft mechanic but I know a little bit about airplanes. Propellers are finely balanced. Any bend is intolerable and causes catastrophic vibration.

[Walter Runck]

As an accident reconstrutionist I can tell you that the problem in auto accidents, especially pre-shoulder restraint days, was that the steering wheel spokes would fold back during the collision, allowing the driver's chest to contact the steering wheel hub, resulting in a flail chest injury if not a complete impalement on the steering shaft. These shafts used to be a one-piece rod from the wheel to the gearbox. They now use a collapsible joint to alleviate this. Even so, it is still common to find the rim of the wheel distorted and pushed down toward the dash, even in crashes where the driver was restrained and the airbag deployed.

There is an incredible amount of energy that is dissipated during a collision.

Agreed.  Please ignore the first page of the slideshow.  There are multiple inaccuracies in the text, but the pictures are real.  The vehicle is a Force Protection Cougar (same base vehicle as UK Mastiff) and was designed to keep people alive during explosions and other impacts.  Everyone did walk away from that one, but they were soldiers, not dilettantes.

Concerning the ground loop idea, do the spurs in the reef run in such a way that the right wheel would have to have skipped over a gap for the left one to be the only one caught?  I'm assuming a landing toward the Norwich City with Niku to port and ocean to starboard.

[Don Dollinger]

Speaking of the failed takeoff in Hawaii, that didn't seem to injure anybody on the plane, and looking at the picture at Luke Field, it appears the landing gear was broken on both sides.

My 2 cents.

No two accidents are the same and the results vary greatly.  I can speak from experience of automobile accidents in early (late 60's) era cars equipped with lapbelt only (I know, apples and oranges but to illustrate a point).  I had one horrific accident where I hit a tree in a '68 Impala head-on and I would estimate my speed at about 55 at impact and walked away with a little whiplash not another scratch.  Had another accident in a '67 Malibu where I hit a guard rail doing about 25 and took out the side window with my head and smashed my mouth all up (16 stitches worth) on the steering wheel.  If you would have seen the 2 vehicles and had to guess which accident caused the most injury you would assuredly have picked the Impala which was totaled the Malibu was repaired and driven for another 50K before I sold it.

Same could be said for the landing at Niku and how AE and FN faired during the landing.  Short of a hidden diary from the castaway stating the exact sequence of events or recovery of enough of the Electra to determine the extent of the damage, and even then would you be able to tell what damage was done during landing and what was done due to it being smashed against the reef?  We are right back at "coulda, shoulda, woulda".

LTM,

Don