Possible Wing Flap

[John Balderston]

. . . does the way you present it here make my eyes see the shapes?

Chris,

Yes - absolutely.  I placed the mosaic of reef images on top of the L10 image for that exact purpose - so your eyes would see what mine are seeing.  And for me that question gets right to the heart of the uncertainty.  We don't know scale.  The preponderance of objects like this, when investigated, have been confirmed to be natural coral formations.  So impirically there is a low probability this is airplane.  Am I seeing this because my mind is now "frozen" and I can't see it any other way?  Maybe; maybe not.  Either way, unconfirmed or confirmed, it's only a clue (albeit "confirmed" is a much stronger clue).  The location is unknown and it has to be found.

I'm with you - the only way we move forward is to move beyond the current unhealthy episode, help Ric get fully prepared and equipped and get back there!

Sincerely, John

[Chuck Lynch]

1. Richie's anomaly
2. Tim's wing flap
3. Tim's toggle switch

[John Balderston]

... in-depth research through previously classified holdings in the National Archives - U.S., U.K, Australia, New Zealand.

I spent a couple of weeks in Auckland in 2003 at the end of Bones II.

By reading indexes, I was able to see the kind of material in the "secret" WPHC archives.

It was mostly about territorial disputes.

Really quite dull.

Meanwhile, the bones file was not classified "secret" and was part
of the regular filing system.

Thanks Marty.  Rather than "previously classified" we should search for information that we haven't had the opportunity to see yet, for whatever reason.

[John Balderston]

"I see dead people."

No, wait. That was a movie.

This is real life. It's important to recognize the difference between the two. Things you see on the screen may not always be real. Things that you can touch are, for the most part, real (don't get me started).

LTM, who knows what he doesn't know,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER

I'm 100% with you Monty.  I see it, perhaps others see it.  But that doesn't make it real.  Lots of undefined variables in the "image chain" from that ROV to this screen.

[Tim Mellon]

Thanks Tim - interesting info!  Question for you - have you been able to correlate the time code on the HD video with the SD out on YouTube (i.e. is the time code the same?).  I've been wondering if it's possible to put together a photo mosaic of the whole area in the Niku VI ROV video.  While it won't be geographically accurate, it should be fairly representational of the geographic location, and therefore possible for a photo interpreter to correlate it with the sonar scan.  Anyway, I don't want to work with the HD stuff (for fear of swamping my hard drive).  If I'm able to correlate with what you're looking at it may be simpler to glue at this together.  v/r JB

John,

From 2010 there is only the 8:33 minute High Definition Video, from which you have taken your captures (starts 13:35:20 and ends 13:43:52). I know of no comparable Standard Definition Video from 2010.

From 2012, the Standard Definition Video runs 12:36, starting at 13:10:47 and ending at 13:23:17. The 2012 High Definition Video which I received runs 15:33, starting at 13:07:00 and ending at 13:22:33. However the time stamps are NOT synched between the two: as best I can make out, the SD time stamp is 1:31 (one minute and 31 seconds) behind the HD time stamp. Also, the SD and HD fields of vision were different: the SD could be swiveled (to "scout around"), unlike the HD.

Further complicating the issue, I remember when Ric released the High Definition of 2012 to everybody else, it was said to have no time stamp at all. I offered to share my copy with anyone else just so that we would all be reading from the same page.

As there has been some movement of matter in the downhill direction between 2010 and 2012, I don't think it will be possible to exactly correlate the two. Many objects evident in 2010 can no longer be seen in the 2012, no matter what definition. What I perceive to be the "cockpit" area is still further downhill than the rest of the debris.

[Tim Mellon]

Furthermore, on the end of the aileron near the leading edge (i.e., at the bottom), one can make out a circle which most probably corresponds to the hinge attachment point.

I see no circle at the hinge attachment point.

Reference:

[Ric Gillespie]

From 2010 there is only the 8:33 minute High Definition Video, from which you have taken your captures (starts 13:35:20 and ends 13:43:52). I know of no comparable Standard Definition Video from 2010.

In 2010, just as in 2012, the ROV was equipped with a Standard Definition camera and an HD camera.  We have Standard Definition video of everything from 2010 but it is, of course, much poorer resolution than the HD footage.  I can dig it out and put the clip corresponding to the HD Wire & Rope clip up on Youtube if anybody wants to see it.

From 2012, the Standard Definition Video runs 12:36, starting at 13:10:47 and ending at 13:23:17. The 2012 High Definition Video which I received runs 15:33, starting at 13:07:00 and ending at 13:22:33. However the time stamps are NOT synched between the two: as best I can make out, the SD time stamp is 1:31 (one minute and 31 seconds) behind the HD time stamp.

That's because the SD time stamp was automatic and the HD time stamp had to be added later.  I thought you knew that.  You were there.  The only way we had to establish the time for the HD footage was for Mark Smith to show a "clapper" time board to the HD camera just before the ROV went over the side for each dive.  After he got home to New Jersey he added time code to the HD video based on that time fix.

Further complicating the issue, I remember when Ric released the High Definition of 2012 to everybody else, it was said to have no time stamp at all. I offered to share my copy with anyone else just so that we would all be reading from the same page.

I asked Mark put timecode on the copy he sent to you.  We were trying to be nice. 

As there has been some movement of matter in the downhill direction between 2010 and 2012, I don't think it will be possible to exactly correlate the two. Many objects evident in 2010 can no longer be seen in the 2012, no matter what definition. What I perceive to be the "cockpit" area is still further downhill than the rest of the debris.

How are you able to plot these positions so precisely?  In 2010 the ROV positioning system was not working and we've discovered huge discrepancies in the 2012 positioning data delivered by Phoenix.

[Ric Gillespie]

Furthermore, on the end of the aileron near the leading edge (i.e., at the bottom), one can make out a circle which most probably corresponds to the hinge attachment point.

I see no circle at the hinge attachment point.

Reference:

I understand that you see something that you interpret to be a circle on the feature in the video. I meant I see no circle at the hinge attach point on the Harney drawing.  Show me a circle at the hinge attach point on a Lockheed Electra aileron. 

[richie conroy]

Hi All

Ok i'll Bite

It's been over 2 weeks since court case got adjourned for 2 weeks, Now Tim is posting underwater video still's which were banned.

So does this mean Tim accepted Ric's offer ?

Have i really been in the twilight zone that long  :-\

[John Balderston]

. . .From 2010 there is only the 8:33 minute High Definition Video, from which you have taken your captures (starts 13:35:20 and ends 13:43:52). . . From 2012, the Standard Definition Video runs 12:36, starting at 13:10:47 and ending at 13:23:17. The 2012 High Definition Video which I received runs 15:33, starting at 13:07:00 and ending at 13:22:33. However the time stamps are NOT synched between the two: as best I can make out, the SD time stamp is 1:31 (one minute and 31 seconds) behind the HD time stamp.

Thanks Tim.  Even with your help and Ric's clarification I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around how to correlate different observations.  Will appreciate any thoughts (this is going to be in my mind for the rest of the day. . . :))  v/r JB

[Ric Gillespie]

It's been over 2 weeks since court case got adjourned for 2 weeks, Now Tim is posting underwater video still's which were banned.

So does this mean Tim accepted Ric's offer ?

The court case was not "adjourned."  The judge heard oral arguments on our Motion To Dismiss.  We anticipated that it might take two weeks for him to issue a ruling.  Nothing so far.  That may be a good sign. 

To my knowledge Tim has not accepted anything.  I'm permitting him to resume posting his observations to give him the opportunity to explain how he reaches his conclusions and answer challenges to his methodology. 

[Ric Gillespie]

From my view we should treat Tim's ideas respectfully and ask respectful, well thought out and serious questions about how he works to his conclusions if we see a need to challenge ideas.

Thank you Jeff.  I just bit my tongue completely off.

[JNev]

From my view we should treat Tim's ideas respectfully and ask respectful, well thought out and serious questions about how he works to his conclusions if we see a need to challenge ideas.

Thank you Jeff.  I just bit my tongue completely off.

Oh God, I hope it'll knit back...  ;)

[Ric Gillespie]

Oh God, I hope it'll knit back...  ;)

Me thoo!

[richie conroy]

Sound Lar

Just thought i had missed sumthin

Ric any chance you can post some of the footage that Tim is Reviewing ? As i don't think we can give a sound opinion without taking into consideration the surrounding area's, Even if it's just for personal use so we can answer Tim better

Thanks Richie