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[Ric Gillespie]

Below is a drawing of the structure of the outer wing of the Electra, according to Harney. Station 4 represents the outer end of the right aileron, station 3 the inner end.

Harney's cross-section is a rough schematic and I don't know how accurate it is.  Bill Harney did a great job but he wasn't perfect. We've found a number of errors in several of his drawings. We need to check either the Lockheed engineering drawings (which we hope to soon have) or a surviving Model 10 to be sure the cross-section is accurate. In any case, it's certainly not an adequate source from which to make an identification.

The proportion of the leading edge of the aileron to the fore-aft width of the aileron at station #4 is almost exactly 1:4. This corresponds to the ratio of these two dimensions in the capture reproduced below.

My measurement of the drawing indicates the proportion of the leading edge of the aileron to the fore-aft width of the aileron at station #3 is 1:3 and at station#4 it is more like 1:4.5.

In addition, the camber drawn by Harney is true to the camber on the surface of the object nearest the viewer.

As close as I can tell from Harney's drawing and from photos of Electras, the ailerons have no camber.

Furthermore, on the end of the aileron near the leading edge (i.e., at the bottom), one can make out a circle which most probably corresponds to the hinge attachment point.

I see no circle at the hinge attachment point.

Close examination of the trailing edge of the "possible" aileron reveals parallel vertical lines, stringers in the exact location to match the rivet spacing of the skin, approximately one per inch along each row of rivets on the aileron.

According to the Harney drawing, the Electra's ailerons are about 10.5 feet long and 15 inches front-to-back. How did you determine the size of the object in the video? 

[Ric Gillespie]

In addition to the "possible aileron", there appear to be two unrelated boxes adjacent, one with what looks like a toggle switch on the right end.

How big is the "box"?  How big is the "toggle switch"?  Half an inch?  An inch?  Six inches?  How do you know?

[Steve Lyle Gunderson]

Lets go get it and find out.

[Steve Lyle Gunderson]

Anyone else start a list?
1.Richie's anomaly
2.Tim's wing flap
3.

[Adam Marsland]

Depending of course on scale, I see many possible Chicken McNuggets-shaped targets too.

[Greg Daspit]

Steve, Here is my hope to search list, so far.
1. The 2012 Debris Field identified by Jeff Glickman at 200 feet with the possible tire and fender that is SW of the Bevington Object. See new Bevington Object update here
2. The Sonar Anomaly that is SW of the Debris Field
3. The unsearched areas near there.
4. Expand digs at Seven Site.
 
Is a 2014 search possible?

[John Balderston]

Anyone else start a list?
1.Richie's anomaly
2.Tim's wing flap
3.

Tim, thanks for posting, and TIGHAR leadership, thanks for permitting a bit of latitude for us camel-in-cloud conjecturers - sincerely appreciated.

My amateur armchair reckoning is that a search of Richie's sonar anomaly will turn up a wing flap. 

To Steve's question, in addition to underwater survey building on what was learned in Niku VII, wouldn't it be superb if research includes significant archeological work on the island, and in-depth research through previously classified holdings in the National Archives - U.S., U.K, Australia, New Zealand.  Go Niku VIII!  v/r JB

[Tim Mellon]

Anyone else start a list?
1.Richie's anomaly
2.Tim's wing flap
3.

Tim, thanks for posting, and TIGHAR leadership, thanks for permitting a bit of latitude for us camel-in-cloud conjecturers - sincerely appreciated.

My amateur armchair reckoning is that a search of Richie's sonar anomaly will turn up a wing flap. 

To Steve's question, in addition to underwater survey building on what was learned in Niku VII, wouldn't it be superb if research includes significant archeological work on the island, and in-depth research through previously classified holdings in the National Archives - U.S., U.K, Australia, New Zealand.  Go Niku VIII!  v/r JB

John, the flap in your interpetation I believe to be less than five meters away from the "aileron" depicted.

[John Balderston]

. . .the flap in your interpretation I believe to be less than five meters away from the "aileron" depicted.

Thanks Tim - interesting info!  Question for you - have you been able to correlate the time code on the HD video with the SD out on YouTube (i.e. is the time code the same?).  I've been wondering if it's possible to put together a photo mosaic of the whole area in the Niku VI ROV video.  While it won't be geographically accurate, it should be fairly representational of the geographic location, and therefore possible for a photo interpreter to correlate it with the sonar scan.  Anyway, I don't want to work with the HD stuff (for fear of swamping my hard drive).  If I'm able to correlate with what you're looking at it may be simpler to glue at this together.  v/r JB

[Chris Johnson]

Nobody here wants that thing to be an Electra aileron or flap more than I do, trust me - but I cannot say reliably that it is; I think I can say reliably that with a high degree of confidence that it is a calved piece of volcanic rock as Chris has described.  Or it could be coral for all I can tell - and it is very likely the case that mother nature has most cleverly used her eons of geologic and faunal time and material to create an image that my mind longs to see.

Jeff, as I pointed out to Chris "in another venue", I highly doubt the object in question is a volcanic outcrop for the following reason: if you examine the bottom of the right end of the object, you can see a slight shadow between the object and the surface below, which indicates that the two are spatially separated (IMHO).

Which, if I follow you, is why I used the term 'calved' - it appears to have been fractured away at some point in the geologic past to me, but I am certainly not a geologist.  IMHO as well, of course - doubly humble, since I am not expert at rocks or coral (but I'm good at 'paper-rock-scissors'  ).

The texture and color, so far as I can discern it in relative terms, makes me think of basalt somehow.  I've seen a fair bit of it used in Christ-era Capernaum construction - it's common in that area, as in many places where volcanic stuff happened, like around sea mounts.  Another example (Giant's Causeway) displays the often common geometric shapes that so often suggest 'man made' stuff - nature's just crazy, isn't it?

That’s what I was trying to get across, the non coral rock has been eroded or calved from it natural and being hard it has very defined edges that make it look man made.

[Chris Johnson]

Anyone else start a list?
1.Richie's anomaly
2.Tim's wing flap
3.

Tim, thanks for posting, and TIGHAR leadership, thanks for permitting a bit of latitude for us camel-in-cloud conjecturers - sincerely appreciated.

My amateur armchair reckoning is that a search of Richie's sonar anomaly will turn up a wing flap. 

To Steve's question, in addition to underwater survey building on what was learned in Niku VII, wouldn't it be superb if research includes significant archeological work on the island, and in-depth research through previously classified holdings in the National Archives - U.S., U.K, Australia, New Zealand.  Go Niku VIII!  v/r JB

John,

very compelting and a nice visual but does the way you present it here make my eyes see the shapes?  What we need is for Ric and Tim to bury the hatchet so to speak and get back there with a expedition planned in more? Detail with better equipment and intensively search around the Bevington Object area only.

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

... in-depth research through previously classified holdings in the National Archives - U.S., U.K, Australia, New Zealand.

I spent a couple of weeks in Auckland in 2003 at the end of Bones II.

By reading indexes, I was able to see the kind of material in the "secret" WPHC archives.

It was mostly about territorial disputes.

Really quite dull.

Meanwhile, the bones file was not classified "secret" and was part
of the regular filing system. 

[Chris Johnson]

In the foreground there is plant/coral growth that could if ID'd provide an indication of size?

[Chuck Lynch]

So... you can't find a 30-foot (or so) fuselage, but you can find a toggle switch?

Come on.

I love TIGHAR... let's keep looking!

[Monty Fowler]

"I see dead people."

No, wait. That was a movie.

This is real life. It's important to recognize the difference between the two. Things you see on the screen may not always be real. Things that you can touch are, for the most part, real (don't get me started).

LTM, who knows what he doesn't know,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER