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Author Topic: Wire & Rope entire.mov  (Read 253282 times)

Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #210 on: November 17, 2012, 08:33:57 AM »

Bob, I believe it was an agreement between Tighar and the Kiribati Republic that under the PIPA , Phoenix Islands Protected Area, marine protection agreement, nothing would be removed, yet.
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #211 on: November 17, 2012, 10:04:57 AM »

Not only that, Bob, but the site videoed in 2010, from which all these components have been identified, was not even found in 2012. I believe this has been explained several times before.

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« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 12:42:30 PM by Tim Mellon »
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #212 on: November 17, 2012, 10:29:55 AM »

Further up the slope I think I can make out the non-Bevington landing gear assembly. See frame #04 at time 13:37:09. The concave side of the fender is up, and lying on top of the somewhat deflated tire. No squigglies here.

All of the components seem to be in scale with each other.

Tim, can you clarify what you mean by the "non-Bevington landing gear assembly"?
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Will Hatchell

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #213 on: November 17, 2012, 10:47:00 AM »

Not only that, Bob, but he site videoed in 2010, from which all these components have been identified, was not even found in 2012. I believe this has been explained several times before.

Tim, I missed this point as I'm sure others may have also missed it earlier, but exactly what were the circumstances of not having found the site videoed in 2010 during the 2012 expedition? Was it some technical glitch or equipment failure, or was the a matter of knowing exactly where down the slope the 2010 area was located and simply being unsuccessful in relocating it? Or is the implication that the site and its contained items had somehow be obliterated or moved during the 2-year interval? In other words, is there any hope of locating the 2010 site again?

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Tim Mellon

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #214 on: November 17, 2012, 11:23:49 AM »

Not only that, Bob, but he site videoed in 2010, from which all these components have been identified, was not even found in 2012. I believe this has been explained several times before.

Tim, I missed this point as I'm sure others may have also missed it earlier, but exactly what were the circumstances of not having found the site videoed in 2010 during the 2012 expedition? Was it some technical glitch or equipment failure, or was the a matter of knowing exactly where down the slope the 2010 area was located and simply being unsuccessful in relocating it? Or is the implication that the site and its contained items had somehow be obliterated or moved during the 2-year interval? In other words, is there any hope of locating the 2010 site again?

As far as I know, not enough had been identified from the 2010 HD video by the start of the 2012 expedition to warrant making the specific effort of finding the 2010 filmed site. Instead, the strategy was to sonar scan the entire square mile target area, then hone in on specific "hits" to see if any of them could possibly be aircraft debris. Much time was then squandered getting the AUV operational, saving the AUV from unfortunate encounters with cliff caves, filming the Norwich City debris field, and so forth. The little remaining time devoted to sending the ROV up and down the mountainside did not lead to any additional discoveries, even though the tracks taken by the ROV apparently came quite close to the area filmed in 2010. Ric may wish to elaborate on this analysis, he having been in charge of strategy.

So, the answer to your question, is there any hope of finding the 2010 field again, I would say "Absolutely!" The giveaway pointer would be that long stretch of taught rope that runs down the slope. The general area of that debris field is known, the specific GPS co-ordinates are not known because the position equipment on the 2010 ROV was not functioning at the time of the dive that resulted in the 8.55 minute video.
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« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 11:46:36 AM by Tim Mellon »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #215 on: November 17, 2012, 11:35:25 AM »

Further up the slope I think I can make out the non-Bevington landing gear assembly. See frame #04 at time 13:37:09. The concave side of the fender is up, and lying on top of the somewhat deflated tire. No squigglies here.

All of the components seem to be in scale with each other.

Tim, can you clarify what you mean by the "non-Bevington landing gear assembly"?

Greg, I described the landing gear assmembly as "non-Bevington" because it is my understanding that the analysis of the Bevington photo led Ric and Jeff Glickman to conclude that the components of the landing gear in the 1937 photo were not really in the correct relationship to one another, the tire being bent around, for instance.  The components of the gear assembly in the picture I annotated, by contrast, are pretty much in the correct position, with the exception of the fender, which appears to me to be upside-down (already controversial, for some reason). Ric may have to explain how the Bevington photo appears out-of-whack, as I am not familiar with those details.
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #216 on: November 17, 2012, 11:56:00 AM »

It is not possible and anyone who visualizes that it is the fender is delusional.  No ignorance displayed on your part, just common sense.

If you believe it is not possible it is up to you to explain why. We do not call people "delusional."

 It is patently obvious that image is too concave in the wrong direction and that is "why".


Bob, maybe the scenario I presented to Travis in Reply #223 (of how the fender came to be upside down) is not reasonable or acceptable to you, but IMHO it is a possibility.

Ric asked you to explain why it is not possible, and I am keenly awaiting your answer.

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Greg Daspit

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #217 on: November 17, 2012, 12:45:03 PM »

Further up the slope I think I can make out the non-Bevington landing gear assembly. See frame #04 at time 13:37:09. The concave side of the fender is up, and lying on top of the somewhat deflated tire. No squigglies here.

All of the components seem to be in scale with each other.

Tim, can you clarify what you mean by the "non-Bevington landing gear assembly"?

Greg, I described the landing gear assmembly as "non-Bevington" because it is my understanding that the analysis of the Bevington photo led Ric and Jeff Glickman to conclude that the components of the landing gear in the 1937 photo were not really in the correct relationship to one another, the tire being bent around, for instance.  The components of the gear assembly in the picture I annotated, by contrast, are pretty much in the correct position, with the exception of the fender, which appears to me to be upside-down (already controversial, for some reason). Ric may have to explain how the Bevington photo appears out-of-whack, as I am not familiar with those details.

I understood from Jeff Glickman's presentation that the Bevington object showed 4 possible components. I see 3 of them in Glickman's presentation, including the main strut, including axle, upside down (with no tire or fender), shown in front of a tire with a fender over it. Since the fender is attached to the strut and not the tire or wheel, I believe that the part of the tire and fender seen above water could be attached to the 2nd strut but un seen because it is underwater.  So the tire and fender seen next to the strut could be from the 2nd landing gear. This is just my opinion of the presentation.  I understand there will be a research paper on the Bevington object that will explain the latest analysis. It may be that the Bevington object includes just the one gear where the tire and fender somehow came off and ended up next to the strut. Or there are components of both main landing gear there.
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« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 01:23:43 PM by Gregory Lee Daspit »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #218 on: November 17, 2012, 01:31:42 PM »

Now comes some further analysis of the upside-down fender shown as part of the landing gear assembly at time 13:37:09, frame 15. The attachment point of the fender to the bottom of the strut, as drawn in the Harney diagram, is almost exactly one-third of the way from the more pointed front end of the fender to the blunter rear end. Same as in the detached fender in this photo.
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« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 01:47:07 PM by Tim Mellon »
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JNev

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #219 on: November 17, 2012, 02:05:21 PM »

It is not possible and anyone who visualizes that it is the fender is delusional.  No ignorance displayed on your part, just common sense.

If you believe it is not possible it is up to you to explain why. We do not call people "delusional."

 It is patently obvious that image is too concave in the wrong direction and that is "why".


Bob, maybe the scenario I presented to Travis in Reply #223 (of how the fender came to be upside down) is not reasonable or acceptable to you, but IMHO it is a possibility.

Ric asked you to explain why it is not possible, and I am keenly awaiting your answer.

It kind of looks like if it's "too concave in the wrong direction" as Bob sees it then he answered, just MHO.

I agree to the extent that I can't seem to see this as you are describing it, Tim.  No offense, only MHO of course, and YMMV - granted.
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #220 on: November 17, 2012, 02:41:58 PM »

I agree to the extent that I can't seem to see this as you are describing it, Tim.  No offense, only MHO of course, and YMMV - granted.

Jeff, it would be helpful to learn what you can see, not just what you can't see. We all see things differently, and you might be able to provide details that I haven't noticed.
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #221 on: November 17, 2012, 02:49:29 PM »

It kind of looks like if it's "too concave in the wrong direction" as Bob sees it then he answered, just MHO.


If it's too concave in the wrong direction, as Bob asserts, he needs to explain why it is then impossible for it to have arrived in that position. I have given a plausible explanation of how it could have become so.
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JNev

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #222 on: November 17, 2012, 03:09:18 PM »

I agree to the extent that I can't seem to see this as you are describing it, Tim.  No offense, only MHO of course, and YMMV - granted.

Jeff, it would be helpful to learn what you can see, not just what you can't see. We all see things differently, and you might be able to provide details that I haven't noticed.

All I can see in this one is natural sea floor - that is what it looks like to me, Tim.  By what you've described, the 'image' is too '2-D' to be all that IMO, for one thing - I would expect there to be more third-dimensional form to it somehow.  'Flattened' is my impression.

Sorry I cannot help more.  Perhaps I am simply missing some key point of it all, but I understand both your view and enthusiasm and accept that.
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JNev

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #223 on: November 17, 2012, 03:14:35 PM »

It kind of looks like if it's "too concave in the wrong direction" as Bob sees it then he answered, just MHO.


If it's too concave in the wrong direction, as Bob asserts, he needs to explain why it is then impossible for it to have arrived in that position. I have given a plausible explanation of how it could have become so.

I merely took it as his opinion once he explained himself; of course I'll leave it to him, but if it is only his opinion I don't understand why he'd be obligated to explain further, IMHO.

I can offer an opinion though: if I've followed your logic, I don't see how the various components could become disturbed that much (fender from gear) and yet redistributed together again so neatly (back 'in place' except inverted).  Just MHO, of course - which I cannot really explain further I'm afraid, and not saying it cannot be - I just don't see how.

I guess too 'concave in the wrong direction' is more like '2-D / lacking apparent body' to me: the image appears too flat IMO.  YMMV, of course, all due respect.
- Jeff Neville

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« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 03:18:16 PM by J. Nevill »
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richie conroy

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Re: Wire & Rope entire.mov
« Reply #224 on: November 17, 2012, 03:20:58 PM »

Here is same object from distance

I have commented on this before in Rov thread
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