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Author Topic: Betty's Notebook - alternate broadcast possibilities  (Read 24315 times)

Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Betty's Notebook - alternate broadcast possibilities
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2012, 03:22:22 PM »

Nothing shown indicates that she ever listened to shortwave broadcasts either before the Earhart event of after.

All we have about the shortwave broadcasts is her testimony to that effect.

It's true that what we have seen of the rest of the notebook does not confirm her testimony; neither does it impeach it.

She claims that the five pages are from the shortwave band.  You apparently deny that.  I'd say that the five pages show she did listen to the shortwave; you would not accept that reasoning.  I think she's telling the truth; you think she's mistaken or malevolent.
LTM,

           Marty
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richie conroy

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Re: Betty's Notebook - alternate broadcast possibilities
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2012, 05:24:52 PM »

Gary

have u never flicked through the bands/stations looking for songs u like ?

i have on my dads steeple tone radio, and happened on the neighbour over the road talking to her lover on a cordless house phone, yes really

also i have some old newspapers from 1939, radio times to be exact, and they show programe guides for shortwave radio stations  all over world  :)
We are an echo of the past


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Monte Chalmers

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Re: Betty's Notebook - alternate broadcast possibilities
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2012, 07:34:44 PM »

I keep reading at this site about the “4th harmonic”.  Who came up with this theory?
Clicking on a link takes you to material elsewhere on the internet.

Thanks, Marty, for the reply.  I looked at the link  - and with interest, but my  question was rhetorical.   I taught electronic basics, including transmitters, for many years.  I stand by my last post - I can’t accept the harmonic explanation,  however, I can accept it happened - I believe! 
Monte TIGHAR #3597
 
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Betty's Notebook - alternate broadcast possibilities
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2012, 09:34:46 PM »


4 different sources in about a 25 minute period. 2 logged by professionals, one of which got a bearing to Gardner. A 3rd logged by newspaper account at the time.
Again we are talking about Tighar's hypothesis of a landing on a reef. It does not need Betty's notebook.

Looking at the plots in the map in Marty's post #98 above very few seem to actually point to Nikumaroro. I'd say that at present to work the hypothesis needs "Betty" and all it can get including artifacts with clear provenance. A wreck would be useful.
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Betty's Notebook - alternate broadcast possibilities
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2012, 01:40:35 PM »

The only thing missing Anthony was to mention that the Pan Am personel were professionals  and, were trained to do what they did, after all, lots of peoples lives depended on their ability to do so. You made a good point which is frequently over-looked and ignored.
This must be the place
 
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Anthony Allen Roach

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Re: Betty's Notebook - alternate broadcast possibilities
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2012, 01:54:41 PM »

I place a lot of confidence in direction finding.  The U.S. Navy used direction finding for intelligence purposes in World War II, and still did when I was in the Navy.  I think there is a good discussion of Navy direction finding in the book "And I Was There" by Rear Admiral Edwin T. Layton, retired.  It's been a few years since I read the book, and I may be wrong, but the idea is that a fixed station can detect the direction a radio signal is coming from based on the type and arrangement of its antenna farm.
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Betty's Notebook - alternate broadcast possibilities
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2012, 11:27:22 AM »

Jeff, I don't read into Mark's posting an implication that Betty was a hoaxer.  Rather, the newspaper reports might have heightened her awareness of the possibility of hearing things on the shortwave frequencies and spurred her interest in scanning those bands.  Lo and behold, she heard something, grabbed her notebook and the rest is history.
"And all you Radio Rangers out there in Radioland you can help save Amelia Earhart by making sure you listen on the fourth harmonic of her transmitter frequency ..."

gl
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 03:58:06 AM by Gary LaPook »
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Betty's Notebook - alternate broadcast possibilities
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2012, 03:41:05 AM »

Thanks, think I will leave it to prove the oft made error of a reciprocal for everyone to remember.  We always lamented "math in the cockpit" and adding/subtracting 180 from a number was usually the extent of a fighter pilot's capability.
Didn't anybody teach you the easy way to find reciprocals? Since it is hard to add or subtract 180 in your head, instead add 200 then subtract 20, or subtract 200 and add 20 same result and easy to do. For example. quick what is the reciprocal of 124 degrees? 124 plus 200 is 324 take away 20 is 304. And to double check your work just add the first two digits of each reciprocal direction and they must equal the same. 1 + 2 = 3 and 3 + 0 also equals 3. (this works because of "magic nines.") Quick, what is the reciprocal of 246 degrees? 246 take away 200 equals 046 plus 20 equals 066. Double check, 2 + 4 equals 6 and 0 + 6 = 6.

gl
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Bill Roe

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Re: Betty's Notebook - alternate broadcast possibilities
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2012, 06:22:54 AM »

  We always lamented "math in the cockpit" and adding/subtracting 180 from a number was usually the extent of a fighter pilot's capability.

Heh- Heh.......

And I thought I was the only one.  I quickly learned that we needed to know our ordnance load and where it was.  Or actually to remember.  I'm left-handed so I wore a pad and pen strapped to my left knee/thigh for note taking.  Had a list of ordnance and position that got crossed off.
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Daniel Paul Cotts

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Re: Betty's Notebook - alternate broadcast possibilities
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2012, 08:12:17 PM »

To Anthony's reply #20.

Here's a large antenna farm that does just what you state: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/FLR-9
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Betty's Notebook - alternate broadcast possibilities
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2012, 08:56:34 PM »

To Anthony's reply #20.

Daniel,

If you simply click the Quote link in post #20--the one to which you wish to reply!--the board will provide a direct link to the message, with the full post set off by the word "quote."

This is not a quote from AAR, but the blue link will take you to his post.

Here is another method of linking directly to a Forum post.
LTM,

           Marty
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pilotart

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Re: Betty's Notebook - alternate broadcast possibilities
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2012, 11:24:50 PM »

Here's a large antenna farm that does just what you state: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/FLR-9

Daniel,

Thanks for the link, those were some antenna's.  Here's another big one.

There are (or were) also much smaller antenna's that will do HF/DF.

You will even see small, hand-held antenna's that will locate a transmitter by pointing the antenna.

As far back as the '60's (that I am aware of and the equipment looked ancient then), there were direction finding antenna's that would work within the standard Aviation Communication Band of VHF (118-136 mHz).

The antenna was a circular affair with many (360) 'arms' or 'spokes' out six feet or so parallel to the ground.  When a transmission was received you could look on a circular scope and see a green line that would indicate the direction in degrees from/to the transmitter/receiver.

This way they could 'vector' a lost pilot home and by having him turn a specified number of degrees off the bearing for a few minutes, they could calculate his 'time-to-the-station' in minutes.  Two (or more) stations in different locations could pinpoint the transmitter by where the Bearing Lines crossed.

Since the FAA Flight Service Station Specialists needed to log a number of these "DF Steers" to maintain his/her 'Currency' they would encourage pilots to do "Practice DF Steers" so both parties could maintain proficiency in the operation.  They would just request that you transmit to them a "count-to-ten" or so and then fly a heading that they would supply.  This was what Amelia expected the Itasca could do for her, alas the Coast Guard had no HF/DF capability and she did not know that.  Pan Am did and maybe that was where she got the idea.

Aircraft were (after WW2 and still are) equipped with specialized receivers that compute direction from specialized VHF (108-118 MHz) (VOR OmniRange Stations) which transmit a 'mark' signal combined with a circulating beam and the time electronically measured from the 'mark' to the 'beam' is your bearing to or radial from that station. The panel indicator has a rotatable dial to select a radial (time) and a needle to show left/right/center on the selected radial.

A more comparable to the RDF Loop system from Earharts day is still found today in some aircraft.  These work in the LF/MF Radio bands (180-1700 {you can listen to AM Radio and steer to the station} kHz) and drive a needle (Automatic Direction Finder) on the panel to show a relative bearing from the aircraft.  The Hooven ADF that she unwisely had removed from her Electra (was the absolute latest) worked this way.  The earlier style she had installed in its place required manually turning that big loop on top of the fuselage while you listened to the signal strength to locate the direction to/from the station.  Had she been proficient with either type, she would have easily located the Itasca.
Art Johnson
 
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Betty's Notebook - alternate broadcast possibilities
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2012, 12:10:52 AM »


Since the FAA Flight Service Station Specialists needed to log a number of these "DF Steers" to maintain his/her 'Currency' they would encourage pilots to do "Practice DF Steers" so both parties could maintain proficiency in the operation.  They would just request that you transmit to them a "count-to-ten" or so and then fly a heading that they would supply.  This was what Amelia expected the Itasca could do for her, alas the Coast Guard had no HF/DF capability and she did not know that.  Pan Am did and maybe that was where she got the idea.

I haven't heard of a D/F steer in many moons. I think the next time I am up flying I will try to get one. I wonder what the flight service station specialist's response will be, "hunh, what's that?" or maybe, just laughter.

gl
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 03:59:32 AM by Gary LaPook »
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pilotart

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Re: Betty's Notebook - alternate broadcast possibilities
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2012, 11:08:50 AM »


Since the FAA Flight Service Station Specialists needed to log a number of these "DF Steers" to maintain his/her 'Currency' they would encourage pilots to do "Practice DF Steers" so both parties could maintain proficiency in the operation.  They would just request that you transmit to them a "count-to-ten" or so and then fly a heading that they would supply.  This was what Amelia expected the Itasca could do for her, alas the Coast Guard had no HF/DF capability and she did not know that.  Pan Am did and maybe that was where she got the idea.

I haven't heard of a D/F steer in many moons. I think the next time I am up flying I will try to get one. I wonder what the flight service station specialist's response will be, "hunh, what's that?" or maybe, just laughter.

gl

Gary,

It looks like you won't get a DF Steer unless you fly in Alaska before those are shut down.

From the September 3, 2012 issue of AIN Safety

Quote
Will Anyone Notice if DF is Shut Down?
The FAA plans to decommission the remaining 29 direction finders (DF) in Alaska unless the aviation industry raises specific objections. DF, first used before World War II, performs one simple function: telling its operator which direction a transmitted radio signal is strongest. A skilled DF operator could pinpoint the location of a lost aircraft. DF steers, as they’re called, have saved thousands of lives over the past 80 years. But now, replaced by more accurate technologies such as GPS and ADS-B, DF is seldom used. Since 2004 there have been eight flight assists, or saves, according to the FAA. Only three, however, were actually credited to the use of a DF steer. Since 2008 there have been none at all. The agency believes DF technology has outlived its useful life and should be shut down. Operators who disagree have until September 12 to voice their opposition on Docket No. FAA–2012–0571.

Looks like 'DF' is going the way of the Four Course Ranges, "...past 80 years" so we have had DF Steers since 1932, wonder if that refers to Pan Am Stations, or if it existed before they had it.
 
Art Johnson
 
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