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Author Topic: NIKU VII  (Read 274497 times)

Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: NIKU VII
« Reply #255 on: July 29, 2012, 03:24:40 PM »

Marty is comparing science related to solving a curiosity as opposed to solving a science that will benefit mankind.

By what science have you arrived at the conclusion that the "curiosity" is insoluble?
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Bill Roe

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Re: NIKU VII
« Reply #256 on: July 29, 2012, 03:38:10 PM »

Marty is comparing science related to solving a curiosity as opposed to solving a science that will benefit mankind.

By what science have you arrived at the conclusion that the "curiosity" is insoluble?

HUH?  Now you're doing to me what you've done to Malcom {comprehension 101}.  Show me where I clearly stated that a curiosity is unsolvable. In particular trying to find out what happened to AE and her airplane - a curiosity. 

I was merely .... oh, never mind.  I'm not about to argue a ridiculous point.  Read my post - no interpretation necessary.
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: NIKU VII
« Reply #257 on: July 29, 2012, 04:44:25 PM »

I'm not about to argue a ridiculous point.  Read my post - no interpretation necessary.

I agree that the point you made is ridiculous.

I don't agree with you that the source of funding changes the essential nature of investigation.

If we don't have all of the pieces of a puzzle, whether the question is about satisfying curiosity about a historical event or satisfying curiosity about the cosmos, it does not make sense to declare that it is unscientific to want to find the missing pieces of the puzzle. 
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           Marty
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Bill Roe

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Re: NIKU VII
« Reply #258 on: July 29, 2012, 07:31:33 PM »

Thanks Jeff -

"Looking for a needle in a haystack" - and that's the only thing you'll find.  Search hard for the needle and you'll miss all the hay around it.

Hopefully that's what'll happen when they get back - that is, take a look at the hay.

I'm curious about AE and her airplane also.  However, I'm skeptical that we have the proper or advanced enough technology to answer the question definitively. 

I'm also a good enough businessman and planner to know when I'm wasting assets.  At the same time, I'm not part of the TIGHAR inner circle thus it's impossible to determine, fer sure, that assets are not at their most productive.  Yet, from what I've read here, it could be questionable.

I've also got enough time in the air under difficult circumstances that weighs my opinion toward Malcom's - she went down in deep water and was lost.
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: NIKU VII
« Reply #259 on: July 29, 2012, 10:10:32 PM »

I've also got enough time in the air under difficult circumstances that weighs my opinion toward Malcom's - she went down in deep water and was lost.

I think that you may be thinking of LaPook's hypothesis (box search, then splashed-and-sank).

So far as I know, Malcolm has not made a commitment to any of the splashed-and-sank scenarios.
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Bill Roe

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Re: NIKU VII
« Reply #260 on: July 29, 2012, 11:34:20 PM »

I've also got enough time in the air under difficult circumstances that weighs my opinion toward Malcom's - she went down in deep water and was lost.

I think that you may be thinking of LaPook's hypothesis (box search, then splashed-and-sank).

So far as I know, Malcolm has not made a commitment to any of the splashed-and-sank scenarios.

This is where I remembered reading - just forgot the context.....

I offer another purely hypothetical scenario, and I stress hypothetical because as we all know I have a quite serious reluctance to accept the validity of much of the cited physical evidence, however in fairness it is one that bears consideration.

The Electra ran out of fuel and came down at sea and sank. Either Earhart and Noonan or both of them made it into the life raft which eventually drifted ashore at Nikumaroro. The survivor lasted long enough to die on the island which explains the skeleton, and also the lack of any wreckage so far found - it might explain possible personal items like the freckle cream and the compact. Those being in a bag hastily grabbed as the plane sank.

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Malcolm McKay

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Re: NIKU VII
« Reply #261 on: July 30, 2012, 12:01:35 AM »


This is where I remembered reading - just forgot the context.....

I offer another purely hypothetical scenario, and I stress hypothetical because as we all know I have a quite serious reluctance to accept the validity of much of the cited physical evidence, however in fairness it is one that bears consideration.

The Electra ran out of fuel and came down at sea and sank. Either Earhart and Noonan or both of them made it into the life raft which eventually drifted ashore at Nikumaroro. The survivor lasted long enough to die on the island which explains the skeleton, and also the lack of any wreckage so far found - it might explain possible personal items like the freckle cream and the compact. Those being in a bag hastily grabbed as the plane sank.


It is a possible variation on the Nikumaroro hypothesis. Overall I am remaining pretty neutral as far as Earhart's fate is concerned, but if I was asked on peril of instant extinction if I didn't provide an opinion I would take splashed and sank as the most likely fate. Simply because some of the hypothetical gymnastics involved in getting her down on some searchable island are of Olympic standard.

But we will see. They are going back to East New Britain in October, TIGHAR have pictures to analyse, Nauticos are continuing their efforts and NASA is about to put another ROV down on Mars which might beam back pics of the Electra and the Martian museum in which it is contained.   
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: NIKU VII
« Reply #262 on: July 30, 2012, 12:22:16 AM »


I agree that the point you made is ridiculous.

I don't agree with you that the source of funding changes the essential nature of investigation.

If we don't have all of the pieces of a puzzle, whether the question is about satisfying curiosity about a historical event or satisfying curiosity about the cosmos, it does not make sense to declare that it is unscientific to want to find the missing pieces of the puzzle.

An interesting and not particularly value free interpretation of what Bob posted Marty. The origin of funds in scientific research is often of immense importance, I trust you have read Naomi Oreskes & Erik M. Conway Merchants of Doubt. If you have ever been employed as a consultant in industries such as mining, as I have, then you will be aware of how tricky it is to maintain balance and objectivity. Invariably some people from both sides will try and influence results.   
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: NIKU VII
« Reply #263 on: July 30, 2012, 06:09:31 AM »

An interesting and not particularly value free interpretation of what Bob posted Marty.

I have not embraced a philosophy which makes its highest value being value-free.  To me, that seems like nonsense.  We can, if you wish, discuss this further in the Chatterbox.

Quote
The origin of funds in scientific research is often of immense importance, I trust you have read Naomi Oreskes & Erik M. Conway Merchants of Doubt. If you have ever been employed as a consultant in industries such as mining, as I have, then you will be aware of how tricky it is to maintain balance and objectivity.

If you have successfully maintained "balance and objectivity," then so can TIGHAR.

If you have sold out to your backers, then you are a self-confessed charlatan.
LTM,

           Marty
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: NIKU VII
« Reply #264 on: July 30, 2012, 06:22:47 AM »

I assume that KOK made it back to Honolulu ok? havent seen any deck log updates-----
Tom Swearengen TIGHAR # 3297
 
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: NIKU VII
« Reply #265 on: July 30, 2012, 07:46:58 AM »


If you have successfully maintained "balance and objectivity," then so can TIGHAR.

If you have sold out to your backers, then you are a self-confessed charlatan.

Umm.... why if you are so eager to maintain good discourse have you thrown in that last comment? Perhaps you should reconsider.
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: NIKU VII
« Reply #266 on: July 30, 2012, 07:51:27 AM »

I have not embraced a philosophy which makes its highest value being value-free.  To me, that seems like nonsense.  We can, if you wish, discuss this further in the Chatterbox.

I think that you are mistaken - you put a spin on it that wasn't in the original so the value that was missing was accuracy.
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: NIKU VII
« Reply #267 on: July 30, 2012, 08:12:16 AM »


If you have successfully maintained "balance and objectivity," then so can TIGHAR.

If you have sold out to your backers, then you are a self-confessed charlatan.

Umm.... why if you are so eager to maintain good discourse have you thrown in that last comment? Perhaps you should reconsider.

I have simply made explicit what is implicit in your comments.

Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

If you have prostituted your work to please your benefactors, that is reprehensible.

If TIGHAR does the same to please its benefactors, that is reprehensible.

If you have resisted that temptation, so can TIGHAR.
LTM,

           Marty
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: NIKU VII
« Reply #268 on: July 30, 2012, 08:22:11 AM »


If you have resisted that temptation, so can TIGHAR.

Well yes, as I resisted then TIGHAR can also. But sometimes people don't and therein is why funding sources and the extent to which some will bring pressure is very important when considering the value of published material and the important question of selective use of data. The asbestos and tobacco industries among others provide lessons to us all that money will often overcome scruples. That is why it is so necessary to turn data and published conclusions inside out.   
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Bill Roe

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Re: NIKU VII
« Reply #269 on: July 30, 2012, 10:39:16 AM »


If you have resisted that temptation, so can TIGHAR.

Well yes, as I resisted then TIGHAR can also. But sometimes people don't and therein is why funding sources and the extent to which some will bring pressure is very important when considering the value of published material and the important question of selective use of data. The asbestos and tobacco industries among others provide lessons to us all that money will often overcome scruples. That is why it is so necessary to turn data and published conclusions inside out.

Uhmmm.......Let me see here.  I think you just stated that the only thing money won't buy is poverty?  (Simply put)   ;) ;) :D :D ;) ;)
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