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Author Topic: Photos from Symposium  (Read 68848 times)

C.W. Herndon

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Re: Photos from Symposium
« Reply #90 on: June 13, 2012, 06:06:10 AM »

Thanks Tom. The reason I was looking for comments from the symposium crowd is that there was so little detail visable of the red strip. Size was also a problem. You guys have actually seen the artifact.

The photo I posted showing the paint on the wing, I think, was taken after the Luke Field repairs but I don't think there would have been any repairs in this area and I doubt there would have been any flush rivets even if there had been.

Just trying to check out a possibility.
Woody (former 3316R)
"the watcher"
 
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Photos from Symposium
« Reply #91 on: June 13, 2012, 07:15:14 AM »

Another possible source for aircraft parts Tom...

That area seems to be a magnet for ditched aircraft and beached ships ???

October 1943
Consolidated PB4Y-1
Lost at sea.
 "ex USAAF B-24D 42-40882."[1]
"10/20/1943 PB4Y-1 32102 VB-106 Funafuti Canton Empire Lt Samuel I. Patella"[2]
"Missing in flight from Canton Island to Funa Futi. 9 missing"[3]
 "CFAW-2 JUN; VB-106 JUL-OCT; Flight Canton Island to Funafuti, crashed at sea 400 mi. SW of Canton Isl. Loss date 18 Oct 1943. Stricken 20 OCT 1943."[4]

http://tighar.org/wiki/Aircraft_lost_in_the_vicinity_of_Nikumaroro


 
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Photos from Symposium
« Reply #92 on: June 13, 2012, 07:28:06 AM »

The Consolidated PB4Y-1 could be the likeliest suspect for the aluminium skin artifact. Consolidated BVD manufacturer of the PB4Y-1, BVD being Boeing/Vultee/Douglas, the companies which manufactured the assemblies had their Identification mark on them, D=Douglas?
Plus their are some promising locations on the Consolidated PB4Y-1 for the location of said aluminium skin.
Just a theory I will look into, could be another dead end though.
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John Ousterhout

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Re: Photos from Symposium
« Reply #93 on: June 13, 2012, 07:34:26 AM »

The local airport (the Grant County International Airport, in Moses Lake, Washington) has a small fleet of PBY's.  I'm sure I could get permission to examine one's sheet metal.  Any suggestions for where on the beast to look first?
Cheers,
JohnO
 
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Photos from Symposium
« Reply #94 on: June 13, 2012, 07:41:11 AM »

The local airport (the Grant County International Airport, in Moses Lake, Washington) has a small fleet of PBY's.  I'm sure I could get permission to examine one's sheet metal.  Any suggestions for where on the beast to look first?

John, it's the PB4Y-1 (Liberator type) not the PBY (Catalina type). If they have the Liberator type then it's worth a look, nose and tail end of fuselage.
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Photos from Symposium
« Reply #95 on: June 13, 2012, 07:50:17 AM »

jeff---I caught alot of grief over suggesting that 'maybe ' Rickenbackers B17 could have floated to Niku. The PBY was supposedly alot further to the SW than the B17, so I temporarily discounted it, PENDING results of the underwater expedition.
Woody----the strip appears to be side enough to cover 2 mateing edges of wingskins. it isnt bent in a contour like it might be formed around a leading edge, but pretty straight. The rivit holes are longitudenal with the strip length, and it was about 20-24 inches as I recall. What I dont know is, how wide was the red paint on the wing, on both the top surface and the bottom surface? 2 feet may be about right. Now----the paint line near the cowling is extended, and the strip could match that area, either on top, or perhaps on the bottom.
tom
Tom Swearengen TIGHAR # 3297
 
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Photos from Symposium
« Reply #96 on: June 13, 2012, 08:44:23 AM »

Don't worry Tom, I was initially led to believe that there were no other aircraft missing in this area. We now have 2, possibly 3 if you include the Electra. These are the ones we know of, WW2 would add the ones we don't know of, I guess there were quite a few aircraft around during that era.
And of course canton island was one of the links in the ferry routes across the Pacific ocean...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Pacific_air_ferry_route_in_World_War_II#Southwest_Pacific_Route_1945

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C.W. Herndon

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Re: Photos from Symposium
« Reply #97 on: June 13, 2012, 10:05:46 AM »

jeff---I caught alot of grief over suggesting that 'maybe ' Rickenbackers B17 could have floated to Niku. The PBY was supposedly alot further to the SW than the B17, so I temporarily discounted it, PENDING results of the underwater expedition.
Woody----the strip appears to be side enough to cover 2 mateing edges of wingskins. it isnt bent in a contour like it might be formed around a leading edge, but pretty straight. The rivit holes are longitudenal with the strip length, and it was about 20-24 inches as I recall. What I dont know is, how wide was the red paint on the wing, on both the top surface and the bottom surface? 2 feet may be about right. Now----the paint line near the cowling is extended, and the strip could match that area, either on top, or perhaps on the bottom.
tom

Tom, the red paint was on both the top and bottom of the wing.
Woody (former 3316R)
"the watcher"
 
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Photos from Symposium
« Reply #98 on: June 13, 2012, 11:45:05 AM »

yes it was, and in the horizontal. I dotn have a good picture of that, but it is a possibility.
Tom Swearengen TIGHAR # 3297
 
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: Photos from Symposium
« Reply #99 on: June 13, 2012, 01:12:17 PM »

Tom, here is the picture of the same area without the paint. It gives a much better idea of what the strip looked like and the rivet pattern. There appears to be a splice in the strip part way down the picture. If we knew the diameter of the exhaust stack we could get a fairly good approximation of the size of the strip and the other features shown.
Woody (former 3316R)
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Photos from Symposium
« Reply #100 on: June 13, 2012, 01:38:27 PM »

Woody, its hard to make out, but they all appear to be 'AN470" style button head rivits. Cant recall the original name (Jeff Nevill Help!!). Also I think the piece is narrower than whats on the plane, and the amounts of rivits is much more than on the strip. But---i think we're getting closer.
Tom Swearengen TIGHAR # 3297
 
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Photos from Symposium
« Reply #101 on: June 13, 2012, 02:45:18 PM »


However I have noted on some Navy aircraft recovered from one of the Great Lakes where a couple of paddle steamers converted to rudimentary aircraft carriers were used to train pilots in deck landings that on some (F4Fs Wildcats) that parts of the skin where the top camo paint has worn off have a red undercoat or primer. Also Vought used their own mix of zinc chromate which was a salmon red-pink on the F4U (Corsair), which was why I asked the question. Therefore use of a red coloured primer is well-documented and so this may mean that that piece of aluminium on display is off a WW2 naval aircraft.   

A young Lieutenant, George Herbert Walker Bush, did his carrier qualification on the Sable steaming in Lake Michigan which docked at Navy Pier in Chicago.
Another aircraft carrier was based in Chicago, the Wolverine, and both of these were propelled by paddle wheels!

Here is a link to video of planes landing on the Wolverine.

If you are ever passing through Midway airport in Chicago take a few minutes to wander over to terminal A where they have one of the planes recovered from the bottom of Lake Michigan and a display about these carrier operations. (Also get a bite to eat at Manny's.)

The reason they did the carrier quals in the lake is because if they did it in the Atlantic they would have needed a complete task force of destroyers to protect the carrier from U-Boats.

17,820 pilots were qualified and  116,000 carrier landings were made on these two ships and more than 135 planes ended up on the bottom of the lake.

gl
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 01:59:21 AM by Gary LaPook »
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Photos from Symposium
« Reply #102 on: June 13, 2012, 07:18:23 PM »

Gentlemen--Fortunately for us, 1936-1937 was a different era. The things we learned about lead in paint primers probably were'nt known in 1936 when the Electra was being built. But--just because this piece of aluminum has 'red primer', or 'red paint' doesnt mean it was off a WWII aircraft, or the Electra. Because, we dont know, because we havent found out whats on the reef yet.


It was also part of the paint application used on fabric covered aircraft in WW1. The reason we don't see it often in photos is that it is covered with the final camouflage colours. However if ever you get to view original fragments of fabric covering dating from that period you can see where it has leached through the fabric on the inside to give that a pinkish hue.

However I agree that just because there is red paint on the piece of aluminium doesn't automatically mean it is original WW2 material, as you say it could have been applied after or could, given the official policy of removing red from external markings etc. in the Pacific War to avoid confusion with the Hinomaru, be a post war relic. Also without having seen the part in question I would not claim what exactly the paint on it is. I simply pointed out that the use of red coloured primers.

Red lead is just one of a suite of different metal and wood protective primers.   
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 07:31:27 PM by Malcolm McKay »
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Photos from Symposium
« Reply #103 on: June 13, 2012, 07:19:36 PM »

Thanks Malcolm. It opened this time. I have never seen that color used before. Also, I knew that the rudder on the Corsair was fabric covered but it appears from looking at these pictures that part of the wings may have also been fabric covered. Is that correct?

G'day Woody

Yes the outer panels aft of the main spar on the F4U were fabric covered.
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: Photos from Symposium
« Reply #104 on: June 13, 2012, 07:48:21 PM »

That was what I had decided from looking at the pictures. Just goes to show that you can learn something new every day if you only pay attention.

I never would have guessed that from such a sturdy machine. But then there was the Hurricane.
Woody (former 3316R)
"the watcher"
 
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