After the Landing

[Andrew M McKenna]

Malcolm Says:

All the archaeology says is that from 1940 to 1965 there are 25 years of occupation by people whose material assemblage is predominantly European.
[/quote]

Isn't that interesting, since the folks who were living on Nikumaroro between 1940 and 1965 were Gilbertese Islanders.

Actually, Malcolm, the stuff we're particularly interested in seems to be pre-war American made female related articles that really don't a good reason to be there since the island was predominantly supplied through British channels. 

So you are saying that those Gilbertese were all carrying around US pre war stuff like compacts with rouge that got to Niku through unlikely sources such as the British Colonial system, or undocumented sources such as the Coasties.

Certainly possible, but it that really a stronger argument than having the US stuff arrive in the company of a US female that is known to be missing in the area?

No, not a definitive proof.  Never said it was, we're just trying to figure out if there is enough reason to keep looking. 

Andrew

[Tom Swearengen]

good point Andrew.

[john a delsing]

Requarding the idea of a 'lovers lane' at the seven site proposed by Gary; I think it is the moderator's job to keep all postings to; "within the relm of possibilities". When Marty misses something, which is very rare, it is up to us Tighar members to step in and police the site. My grandfather was in the navy ( which the coast gruard is part of ) during WWII and I remember him telling many people, many times, and usually in front of my grandmother how when he enlisted the navy they not only required him to take a oath of loyalty, but also a vow of casitity. Gary could have, and should have checked that out, it can be easly done by asking any sailor, one preferably with their wife or girl friend, if this vow is still required.

[Malcolm McKay]

Malcolm Says:

Isn't that interesting, since the folks who were living on Nikumaroro between 1940 and 1965 were Gilbertese Islanders.

Actually, Malcolm, the stuff we're particularly interested in seems to be pre-war American made female related articles that really don't a good reason to be there since the island was predominantly supplied through British channels. 

So you are saying that those Gilbertese were all carrying around US pre war stuff like compacts with rouge that got to Niku through unlikely sources such as the British Colonial system, or undocumented sources such as the Coasties.

Certainly possible, but it that really a stronger argument than having the US stuff arrive in the company of a US female that is known to be missing in the area?

No, not a definitive proof.  Never said it was, we're just trying to figure out if there is enough reason to keep looking. 

Andrew

Sorry but your statement shows that you are agreeing with my statement about the origins of the material assemblage. From an archaeological perspective you would have to go back to before the European influence began in the Gilbert and Phoenix Islands to find a material assemblage that is pure Polynesian and there is no hint of that on Nikumaroro that I am aware of. You have then confirmed my statement by saying that the basic material is supplied through British channels well there would not be much difference in that material whether it was of British or American origin as its closest source for practical purposes would be from New Zealand.

Now apparently there are artifacts in the assemblage which can be traced to the US Coast Guard presence in 1944 - 46, which is to be expected but my understanding is that it is mainly military like cartridge cases and a zip fastener tab IIRC. Nevertheless all of that is as I have pointed out exists as a sub-phase within the European material resulting from the occupation in the period 1940 - 65.

And yes I am aware of the rouge and the compact part found on the island - but I would say that as far as I know those items were not tied precisely to the period prior to the PISS arrival. So equally we can say that until further evidence is found that ties them to the period 1937 - 40 then they are tantalising like the size 9 shoe remains but inconclusive because who knows what items were supplied to the Nikumaroroans during the period 1940 - 65.

For instance has anyone traced cargo manifests to show precisely what items were supplied in that period, or for that matter is it possible that individual items could have come to the island in private mail. There are many possible explanations. What is needed to tie them to Earhart is not more such items because that only multiplies what we cannot confirm, but instead clear positive evidence that Earhart was on Nikumaroro in 1937 and that, I think you will agree, will depend upon much tighter evidence such as something that clearly belonged to either Earhart or Noonan, or bone for DNA identification or a plane wreck or wreckage that is traceable to the Electra.   

[richie conroy]

Tighar through there relentless search of archives, documents, witness statements, and ground work, with the help of forum members have come up with

evidence although not smoking gun,  which indicates Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan died on Gardner Island

what happened when they landed till they died we prob never know

theory wise no other hypothesis comes close evidence wise to Tighar's

[Gary LaPook]

Requarding the idea of a 'lovers lane' at the seven site proposed by Gary; I think it is the moderator's job to keep all postings to; "within the relm of possibilities". When Marty misses something, which is very rare, it is up to us Tighar members to step in and police the site. My grandfather was in the navy ( which the coast gruard is part of ) during WWII and I remember him telling many people, many times, and usually in front of my grandmother how when he enlisted the navy they not only required him to take a oath of loyalty, but also a vow of casitity. Gary could have, and should have checked that out, it can be easly done by asking any sailor, one preferably with their wife or girl friend, if this vow is still required.

I expect that you were being "tongue in cheek." I saw a show on the History Channel awhile ago about the red light district in Honolulu during WW2 and there were photos and movies of thousands of those navy guys lined up on the street to violate their vows.

gl

[Gary LaPook]

For instance has anyone traced cargo manifests to show precisely what items were supplied in that period, or for that matter is it possible that individual items could have come to the island in private mail. There are many possible explanations. What is needed to tie them to Earhart is not more such items because that only multiplies what we cannot confirm, but instead clear positive evidence that Earhart was on Nikumaroro in 1937 and that, I think you will agree, will depend upon much tighter evidence such as something that clearly belonged to either Earhart or Noonan, or bone for DNA identification or a plane wreck or wreckage that is traceable to the Electra.

And don't forget crewmen on the copra schooners "trading on their own account"  bringing stuff from one island to another for sale. This would not show up on any manifest. Such crewmen could also be responding to a request from a nikumororian to pick up something special for him on the next voyage, again unrecorded.

gl

[Malcolm McKay]

Tighar through there relentless search of archives, documents, witness statements, and ground work, with the help of forum members have come up with

evidence although not smoking gun,  which indicates Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan died on Gardner Island

what happened when they landed till they died we prob never know

theory wise no other hypothesis comes close evidence wise to Tighar's

Indeed Richie? I don't believe that even TIGHAR are that confident about what the material assemblage reveals, otherwise they would not be still searching. However if you have found clear evidence of Earhart and Noonan being on Nikumaroro in your examination of the material data and witness statements then I suggest you tell us what this is.

[Malcolm McKay]

For instance has anyone traced cargo manifests to show precisely what items were supplied in that period, or for that matter is it possible that individual items could have come to the island in private mail. There are many possible explanations. What is needed to tie them to Earhart is not more such items because that only multiplies what we cannot confirm, but instead clear positive evidence that Earhart was on Nikumaroro in 1937 and that, I think you will agree, will depend upon much tighter evidence such as something that clearly belonged to either Earhart or Noonan, or bone for DNA identification or a plane wreck or wreckage that is traceable to the Electra.

And don't forget crewmen on the copra schooners "trading on their own account"  bringing stuff from one island to another for sale. This would not show up on any manifest. Such crewmen could also be responding to a request from a nikumororian to pick up something special for him on the next voyage, again unrecorded.

gl

Perfectly correct Gary - there are many ways artifacts of Western cultural origin can have found their way to the island, and a lot of that is either undocumented or lies in unexamined cargo manifests (although one would suspect that much of that paperwork is long lost). Just adding more items to a set that might hypothetically be ascribed to Earhart and Noonan doesn't provide answers it only increases the uncertainty. 

[Malcolm McKay]

My grandfather was in the navy ( which the coast gruard is part of ) during WWII and I remember him telling many people, many times, and usually in front of my grandmother how when he enlisted the navy they not only required him to take a oath of loyalty, but also a vow of casitity.

As Mandy Rice-Davies famously remarked "Well, he would, wouldn't he?"  ;D

[Chris Johnson]

Here are some statements and questions for the islander fraternisation hypothesis.

It's Micronesian not Polynesian.

Trade was with the British Empire via Fiji as that is what empires are all about, trade between the host nation and colonies and the exclusion of other nations where possible.

A compact is a high status item, a simple mirror not so.  "Hey Mack, those island girls sure like shiny mirrors, lets fashion some from our shaving kit? If we don't get lucky we might get some of those nice wooden boxes with aluminium bits on!"

Same applies for islander to trader, "I want shiny thing! OK sounds like a mirror to me.

Now my college education was in Marketing and Malcolm trumps me with a PHd but my masters is still good going.  Trade is all about profit, you've seen the cowboy movies where the white guys buy the local stuff for beads and fire water.  Same scenario, trade low for high, ladies compact could buy the island when you think a couple of bottles of suds would get you a nice Kanawa Box.

Questions for Malcolm and Gary

Can you tell me what the leave rota was for the LORAN guys as this would help show that one may have gone to a US controlled zone where a US compact was available?

Maybe you guys could speak to some ex islanders to gather evidence to prove your theory?

[Heath Smith]

The bartering theory is interesting however if they just traded a box for a nice shiny thing (ladies compact), why would they leave their new prized possession at the Seven Site? If it were found in the Northern area occupied by the natives that would make sense.

[Chris Johnson]

As i've said before the compact is a high status item, not cheap and not throw away.  OK a lady islander could have thrown it away in rage if a coastie led them along but it smacks more of an item taken by someone to where they ultimatly finished their days (in abag) and then it just became part of the limited archeology.

[Malcolm McKay]

Here are some statements and questions for the islander fraternisation hypothesis.

Questions for Malcolm and Gary

Can you tell me what the leave rota was for the LORAN guys as this would help show that one may have gone to a US controlled zone where a US compact was available?

Maybe you guys could speak to some ex islanders to gather evidence to prove your theory?

See my reply in the Fraternization thread.  :)

[Malcolm McKay]

The bartering theory is interesting however if they just traded a box for a nice shiny thing (ladies compact), why would they leave their new prized possession at the Seven Site? If it were found in the Northern area occupied by the natives that would make sense.

Perhaps it got dropped in the heat of the moment as her dad appeared waving a machete?  ;D