Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10 11 ... 28   Go Down

Author Topic: After the Landing  (Read 279450 times)

Jeff Victor Hayden

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #120 on: May 17, 2012, 08:51:31 AM »

Do we know if, from all the hoardes of female European visitors to Nikumaroro, any of them had freckles?
This must be the place
 
Logged

Heath Smith

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 391
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #121 on: May 17, 2012, 03:26:09 PM »

Quote
If Gallagher had wanted to specify that there was only one fire, he could have said, "remains of a fire."

If he had wanted to specify a plurality, he could have used words to do so: "remains of seven fires" or "remains of fires" (as he did with "birds").

It is possible that he (or the radio man) left out "a" because that is common practice in telegraphy.

I don't think it is a knockdown argument to say that because TIGHAR has found seven or more fire features, none of them were the same as what Gallagher saw.  Nor do I think that I am obliged by the language of the telegram to imagine that there was one and only one fire site visible when Gallagher searched the area.  For me, it's an open question.  I understand that you take a different approach to language and will use your own principles of interpretation (known in my trade as "hermeneutics") to come to a different conclusion.

It would seem to be common sense, despite the various possible linguistic interpretations of a telegram are concerned, that multiple fires (TIGHAR has found what now, over 7?) would be interpreted as belonging to a potential group of survivors / explorers / vacationers. It is hard to imagine that if he found all of those camp fires located within steps of a skeleton that he would have kept that to himself and not forwarded these details. As Christopher pointed out, Gallagher went so far as to say this castaway (and therefore all the the surrounding evidence of life) were not part of the Norwich survivor group. This does suggest that this poor sod was found alone with left overs from a meal over a fire and the sexton box, sole, and corks on chains.

While there is no slam dunk there is the good ole occam's razor.

The simplest explanation would be that he found nothing in addition to what he telegraphed.
Logged

Lisa Anne Hill

  • T1
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #122 on: May 17, 2012, 05:19:47 PM »

Redirect from the 7 site conversation -

If you were in a hot, tropical environment with limited water to drink, sweating inside an aluminum container (i.e. plane) for even a short amount of time, would you not become dehydrated rather quickly? Along with dehydration would come electrolyte depletion, which I believe can cause effects like confusion, delirium, etc. Perhaps even turn a person who is normally competent, intelligent and capable into something less than that - someone who repeats themselves or appears to "babble on" about things not entirely relevant to the situation.
Just a thought -

LTM,

Lisa
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #123 on: May 17, 2012, 06:06:29 PM »

Redirect from the 7 site conversation -

If you were in a hot, tropical environment with limited water to drink, sweating inside an aluminum container (i.e. plane) for even a short amount of time, would you not become dehydrated rather quickly? Along with dehydration would come electrolyte depletion, which I believe can cause effects like confusion, delirium, etc. Perhaps even turn a person who is normally competent, intelligent and capable into something less than that - someone who repeats themselves or appears to "babble on" about things not entirely relevant to the situation.
Just a thought -

LTM,

Lisa
Yep and they are so delirious that they keep forgetting that they had already constructed a fire pit so continued to build more and more of them.
Did Gallagher report multiple fire pits or were they made by the coasties later? I have a theory. Perhaps the 7 site was really the "lover's lane" of Gardner where the coasties snuck off to have assignations with the local women. And to encourage such activities the coasties may have provided presents, trinkets, such as mirrors, and makeup etc., to the women. (Watch the old movie Mutiny on the Bounty and see how the natives went nuts for mirrors.)

gl
Logged

Tom Swearengen

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 818
  • earhart monument, Hawaii
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #124 on: May 17, 2012, 09:25:07 PM »

Gary--I dont disagree with your theory on the seven site. I have always wondered about AE hiking several miles to a spot on the northeast side to get a better look for any rescue attempts. By Theory only I guess.
We've been told by those that have been to Niku in the summer months of pretty hot days. I just have a tough time believing that Amelia would spend her time hiking around Niku in those kinds of conditions. I guess the timeline is what I have a problem with. WE are thinking that she did this in the days just after the disappearance? Maybe, after July 9, after the failed overflight by Lambrecht and his team. But, with tempertures the way they are, and her lack of provisions (i assume), I would think that she might not hav ebeen able to make it to the seven site. If so, then who does the artifacts belong to?

Guess I can check on that as well as other things in DC. Perhaps Marty can help-
Tom
 
Tom Swearengen TIGHAR # 3297
 
Logged

Malcolm McKay

  • Read-only
  • *
  • Posts: 551
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #125 on: May 17, 2012, 10:16:29 PM »

... I would think that she might not hav ebeen able to make it to the seven site. If so, then who does the artifacts belong to?


But why must they belong to Earhart and not anyone else? If we try to force their provenance by guessing then we trap ourselves in an error. All the archaeology says is that from 1940 to 1965 there are 25 years of occupation by people whose material assemblage is predominantly European.
Logged

Martin X. Moleski, SJ

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2951
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #126 on: May 17, 2012, 10:24:18 PM »

The simplest explanation would be that he found nothing in addition to what he telegraphed.

Yes.  But "what he telegraphed" is precisely what is in question in this case.

He could have been more precise.

He wasn't--for whatever reason.
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
Logged

Heath Smith

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 391
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #127 on: May 18, 2012, 04:21:29 AM »

Quote
Yes.  But "what he telegraphed" is precisely what is in question in this case.

Since he ruled out the Norwich City survivors this would suggest that there was no evidence of that group (or another unknown group) in the area.

Granted he had also already made the assumption in his mind that this was a woman based upon the sole of the shoe he had found. Since he knew there were no women aboard the NC that would make sense that he made this deduction.

While there have been interesting artifacts at the Seven Site there has been nothing to tie it to the Bones Site. The "ren tree" would seem to be the key to finding the Bone Site.

Is the "ren tree" slang for Tournefortia argentea? If so, that document suggest that the life span is unknown, expected to be decades. Is it even remotely possible that a ren tree could have survived 75 years? If so, could a mathematical model be created to estimate the age of a ren tree by measuring its diameter? This would probably require coring or cutting down a few of them. If this were possible it would seem logical to measure all ren trees about 100ft from high tide along the South-Eastern corner and search under them perhaps with metal detectors.

Perhaps that area was cleared of all trees as was apparently originally planned so this is irrelevant but it is a thought.
Logged

Chris Johnson

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1069
  • Trying to give a fig but would settle for $100,000
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #128 on: May 18, 2012, 05:27:42 AM »

Quote
If Gallagher had wanted to specify that there was only one fire, he could have said, "remains of a fire."

If he had wanted to specify a plurality, he could have used words to do so: "remains of seven fires" or "remains of fires" (as he did with "birds").

It is possible that he (or the radio man) left out "a" because that is common practice in telegraphy.

I don't think it is a knockdown argument to say that because TIGHAR has found seven or more fire features, none of them were the same as what Gallagher saw.  Nor do I think that I am obliged by the language of the telegram to imagine that there was one and only one fire site visible when Gallagher searched the area.  For me, it's an open question.  I understand that you take a different approach to language and will use your own principles of interpretation (known in my trade as "hermeneutics") to come to a different conclusion.

It would seem to be common sense, despite the various possible linguistic interpretations of a telegram are concerned, that multiple fires (TIGHAR has found what now, over 7?) would be interpreted as belonging to a potential group of survivors / explorers / vacationers. It is hard to imagine that if he found all of those camp fires located within steps of a skeleton that he would have kept that to himself and not forwarded these details. As Christopher pointed out, Gallagher went so far as to say this castaway (and therefore all the the surrounding evidence of life) were not part of the Norwich survivor group. This does suggest that this poor sod was found alone with left overs from a meal over a fire and the sexton box, sole, and corks on chains.

While there is no slam dunk there is the good ole occam's razor.

The simplest explanation would be that he found nothing in addition to what he telegraphed.

Heath! Please only my mother and wife (when i've been bad) call me that.  Chris is just fine  ;D
Logged

Chris Johnson

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1069
  • Trying to give a fig but would settle for $100,000
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #129 on: May 18, 2012, 05:41:04 AM »

Heath,

7site and Ren Tree

Quote
Gallagher, in his October 17, 1940 telegram to the Secretary of the Western Pacific High Commission, says, “Body had obviously been lying under a “ren” tree and remains of fire, turtle and dead birds appear to indicate life.” Ren trees (Tournefortia argentia) are quite common on Nikumaroro, so that is not much help, but for what it’s worth there is
now a rather large ren tree right in the middle of the Seven Site. Near the base of that tree, and at several other dis-creet locations nearby, we excavated numer-ous bird, turtle and fish bones some of which showed clear signs of having been in a fire

I beleive that there has been discussion of dendro dating the tree but as there arn't seasons so to speak on the island this would be difficult.

Chris  :)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 06:35:55 AM by Martin X. Moleski, SJ »
Logged

Martin X. Moleski, SJ

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2951
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #130 on: May 18, 2012, 06:34:40 AM »

Quote
Yes.  But "what he telegraphed" is precisely what is in question in this case.

Since he ruled out the Norwich City survivors this would suggest that there was no evidence of that group (or another unknown group) in the area.

I can't follow you, Heath.

On the basis of the wording of the telegram, it seems that you are now abandoning the idea that any of the fires came from Norwich City survivors.  You seem to be saying that Gallagher saw the remains of only one fire, and that therefore there was only one fire on that site prior to 1940.  All of the other fire features are now to be attributed to post-1940 activities.

Is that your view?

Quote
Granted he had also already made the assumption in his mind that this was a woman based upon the sole of the shoe he had found. Since he knew there were no women aboard the NC that would make sense that he made this deduction.

He also found "parts of a man's shoe."

He did not decide that the skeleton was that of a woman.  He considered it a possibility and deferred to the judgment of those capable of making such a judgment.

Quote
While there have been interesting artifacts at the Seven Site there has been nothing to tie it to the Bones Site. The "ren tree" would seem to be the key to finding the Bone Site.

Except that Gallagher talked about clearing that part of the island to plant coconuts.

Quote
Perhaps that area was cleared of all trees as was apparently originally planned so this is irrelevant but it is a thought.

Yes, it is a thought.
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
Logged

Heath Smith

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 391
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #131 on: May 18, 2012, 06:45:24 AM »

Quote
I can't follow you, Heath.

On the basis of the wording of the telegram, it seems that you are now abandoning the idea that any of the fires came from Norwich City survivors.  You seem to be saying that Gallagher saw the remains of only one fire, and that therefore there was only one fire on that site prior to 1940.  All of the other fire features are now to be attributed to post-1940 activities.

Is that your view?

If there were many remnants of camp fires this would suggest a group was present and not a sole castaway. It seems that he was convinced that this was a sole castaway therefore he ruled out the NC survivors.

Personally I believe that the NC survivors may be tied to the Seven Site and that the Bones Site possibly remains undiscovered.

Quote
Except that Gallagher talked about clearing that part of the island to plant coconuts.

Was he alive long enough to have seen that through? Did the development planning cease after he died?

I read over what Chris had posted. It mentions a large ren tree near the center of the site. Have any attempts been made to determine its approximate age? Is it just a stump or is it alive?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 08:57:04 PM by Heath Smith »
Logged

Chris Johnson

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1069
  • Trying to give a fig but would settle for $100,000
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #132 on: May 18, 2012, 06:54:39 AM »

It was alive during that expedition as someone was standing in it.

If you look on the main site I think you will find a kite photography image that shows it clearly still standing.
Logged

Heath Smith

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 391
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #133 on: May 18, 2012, 06:56:05 AM »

It was alive during that expedition as someone was standing in it.

If you look on the main site I think you will find a kite photography image that shows it clearly still standing.

Thanks for the info.

That is interesting. Perhaps a core could reveal its age after all.
Logged

Chris Johnson

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1069
  • Trying to give a fig but would settle for $100,000
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #134 on: May 18, 2012, 07:02:28 AM »

As I said my understanding is that the tree's on Niku do not have dating rings as there are no seasons as such.  Can't remember exactly where I got this info from.  Think that the only indication would be number of sever droughts the island had has.

Could be wrong though  ;)
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10 11 ... 28   Go Up
 

Copyright 2019 by TIGHAR, a non-profit foundation. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be reproduced by xerographic, photographic, digital or any other means for any purpose. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be stored in a retrieval system, copied, transmitted or transferred in any form or by any means, whether electronic, mechanical, digital, photographic, magnetic or otherwise, for any purpose without the express, written permission of TIGHAR. All rights reserved.

Contact us at: info@tighar.org • Phone: 610-467-1937 • Membership formwebmaster@tighar.org

Powered by MySQL SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Powered by PHP