Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 28   Go Down

Author Topic: After the Landing  (Read 279254 times)

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #60 on: April 13, 2012, 03:03:06 AM »

Jeff -- Just so we're clear, I was suggesting that Gary's little scenario was totally nonsensical on day one, when we believe they had a working radio and gas and a battery and a plane that was likely to go over the reef at any moment.  It makes absolutely no sense that Amelia would abandon the radio and an injured navigator on the off chance there might be someone around, particularly if she was moving slowly.  She'd also probably hope that if someone was on the island, they would hear the crash and come to investigate. 

Once the plane was over the edge and/or the radio no longer worked, though, yeah -- no problem with Gary's scenario.  My issue was with his repeated assertion that that was something they would plausibly do as soon as they landed.  No.  Way.  Plus, not supported by the evidence we have, but that's another issue.

I said she should look for help on the second day since she only had half a day left after her arrival on Gardner.

Just because you believe that they had a working transmitter based on the reports of later radio receptions, what makes you think that Earhart believed that her transmitter was working? She never got any responses to the messages she sent to Itasca. Just because the radio lights up doesn't mean that it is putting out any signal. Even if it did work, she would have no way to know that, she got no feedback to confirm that it was actually working. In fact, there is reason to believe that the transmitter die not work since no transmissions from the plane were heard by Itasca during the three hour flight down to Gardner and it is logical that she was attempting to send messages about her location and plans at that time. And there is certainly no reason that either Earhart or Noonan were "McGivers" with any knowledge of how to troubleshoot a radio problem or to fix one if they found it.

"Amelia, please go and see if you can find some medical help for me, I'm really busted up and I know I will die before help can arrive from Howland, I can't last more than one or two days. My only hope is that there is someone, somewhere on this island to help me or I am lost."

"There, there, Fred it'll be alright. I want to stay here for five more days and send out radio distress calls."

"Amelia, that radio ain't working, no one ever responded to us, it's busted, go get me some help."

"There, there Fred it will be alright."

"Tell you what Amelia, if I am going to die here because you won't try to get me some help, I am going to use my sextant box to bash in your head, and take you with me!"

gl


Logged

Heath Smith

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 391
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #61 on: April 13, 2012, 04:24:07 AM »

Quote
And there is certainly no reason that either Earhart or Noonan were "McGivers" with any knowledge of how to troubleshoot a radio problem or to fix one if they found it.

If the belly antenna was ripped off at Lae it, and they did land on the reef as the theory goes, it is possible the could have rigged up an antenna using wiring in the Electra. This antenna was used for reception correct? Perhaps that is why Betty's notebook seems to indicate that AE was hearing others on whatever frequency she was using.

Quote
In fact, there is reason to believe that the transmitter die not work since no transmissions from the plane were heard by Itasca during the three hour flight down to Gardner and it is logical that she was attempting to send messages about her location and plans at that time.

Do we know if the Itasca or Howland had a functioning receiver for 6210Khz (her daytime frequency)? It seems that only the receivers at Lae and Nauru heard her on that frequency. One of the last transmissions indicated that she was going to repeat messages on 6210Khz. Perhaps she stayed with 6210Khz and was transmitting after the last message at 20:13GMT on 3105Khz but was not heard by the Itasca or Howland. If her receiving antenna was indeed broken, and she had no idea whether she was heard on 3105Khz, why not just stay with 6210Khz that she believed had a better daytime range?

It is also possible that there were other transmissions missed by both the Itasca and Howland as they talked with each other (passing on the dope), played with direction finder on Howland that was hopelessly broken, sending out Morse code to AE, or were flat out talking over the top of her instead of listening. It is interesting that in the lessons learned after the fact, there was never any mention about procedures within the CG to prevent missing critical messages due to their lack of internal coordination and methodology. That was an internal CG problem, not AE's problem.

I am fairly convinced that they completely missing the 17:47GMT message. If they could have heard just a few more words from AE, for example that they were in cloudy conditions, this could have changed the entire outcome of the search and rescue operations.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 04:26:46 AM by Heath Smith »
Logged
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #62 on: April 13, 2012, 04:45:16 AM »

Scenario: After the landing, A.E. has one thought in her mind: "I hope there will be a search and they will find us!" Therefore she stays NEAR the plane, because the plane would be seen first from above. But then the plane is covered with water, and A.E. knows: "They won't see the Electra, so I must show them I AM HERE!" So she makes a big sign at the beach that could be seen clearly from above. She knows, that is the only way to save her life. SHE MUST BE SEEN!
And what found Lambrecht? No Electra, no S.O.S on the beach, no sign that would show him that A.E. and F.N were there. Nothing at all. And so I ask: WHY?



A very good question. I have always thought that staying on the shore near the Norwich City wreck to be preferable to going elsewhere on the island in that short period before lack of food and more importantly water overtook them. The wreck was the most naturally visible feature on the island and anybody flying there would be drawn to it as a starting point for a search. So staying near it is logical.

The largest land mass of Nikumaroro is at the north west corner of the island, it has coconuts and would be a place one could reasonably expect to dig a well with some hope of success. I am not suggesting that they dug a well - it is a possibility they might have briefly considered but the reality is that it would be hard work given their deteriorating physical condition and lack of appropriate tools. Not like in movies where the explorers expiring from dehydration dig frantically with their hands in a nice dry sandy river bottom and are rewarded with a muddy trickle. It would also serve as a good base for exploratory treks around the island - if the bones are Earhart's, something that I remain to be convinced of, then perhaps they are there because she simply collapsed and could go no further while searching for food or water after a rain squall, on a walk, a few days or a week or so after the landing. Why her purported shoe is on the other side of the lagoon is strange - carried there by a crab attracted to the leather? dropped as she succumbed to delirium? Not hers at all? Who knows but I would suggest that walking in bare feet would be both painful and very debilitating so perhaps when that happened both she and Noonan were at the end of their rope.

Noonan could have been with her, after all we are only extrapolating from a garbled and badly recalled radio message that he was injured, and he moved on, preferring not to remain in the vicinity of a rapidly decomposing and hurriedly covered body that was becoming a crab magnet and died somewhere else. All very tragic and good stuff for a reenactment in a TV special but there isn't much real evidence to support it. Just like any other reconstruction of their last days if they made it to Nikumaroro.

Back to Lambrecht: As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong) nobody ever asked him what he meant with "Signs of recent habitation". I think, it would be very, very interesting to know that. It would have great influence upon our discussion here!
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 04:47:32 AM by Oskar Erich Heinrich Haberlandt »
Logged

Malcolm McKay

  • Read-only
  • *
  • Posts: 551
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #63 on: April 13, 2012, 04:54:28 AM »

Well the problem is that lots of people are assuming that because of the Betty radio message that on Nikumaroro, Amelia is OK and poor Fred is helpless. Now as there is nothing to support that hypothesis how about this one.

Earhart, not the greatest pilot on Earth as we are aware, bounces the Electra down on the reef, in the process breaking off one undercarriage leg, and finally wakes up to the fact that she has got both of them well and truly in the s**t. Noonan a man we all know of some experience in nautical and command matters finally tells her -

"Amelia, this your fault, the radio was working but you have stuffed it by not transmitting long enough at any time for anyone to get a fix and we get ourselves lost. I'm here because your husband was well aware you couldn't navigate to save your life and you would need an expert to get you across the ocean. Now stop fiddling with the radio - no one is listening. Let's get out of this tin can, its hot, a wreck and the next wave will probably drown us in it, and head for the shore."

Once ashore after a couple of acrimonious days Amelia well aware of her limitations, after being really made aware of them by Noonan, storms off to the south of the island and succumbs finally to thirst due to her usual inability to pay attention to detail.

Fred, thoroughly glad to see the end of her, stays near the shore of the north part of the island near the wreck and succumbs himself to thirst and hunger. Being near the shore his body is washed out to sea by a high tide or storm and then disappears.

Works for me.
Logged

Tim Collins

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 316
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #64 on: April 13, 2012, 06:48:31 AM »

Well the problem is that lots of people are assuming that because of the Betty radio message that on Nikumaroro, Amelia is OK and poor Fred is helpless. Now as there is nothing to support that hypothesis how about this one.

Earhart, not the greatest pilot on Earth as we are aware, bounces the Electra down on the reef, in the process breaking off one undercarriage leg, and finally wakes up to the fact that she has got both of them well and truly in the s**t. Noonan a man we all know of some experience in nautical and command matters finally tells her -

"Amelia, this your fault, the radio was working but you have stuffed it by not transmitting long enough at any time for anyone to get a fix and we get ourselves lost. I'm here because your husband was well aware you couldn't navigate to save your life and you would need an expert to get you across the ocean. Now stop fiddling with the radio - no one is listening. Let's get out of this tin can, its hot, a wreck and the next wave will probably drown us in it, and head for the shore."

Once ashore after a couple of acrimonious days Amelia well aware of her limitations, after being really made aware of them by Noonan, storms off to the south of the island and succumbs finally to thirst due to her usual inability to pay attention to detail.

Fred, thoroughly glad to see the end of her, stays near the shore of the north part of the island near the wreck and succumbs himself to thirst and hunger. Being near the shore his body is washed out to sea by a high tide or storm and then disappears.

Works for me.

Perfect! Write it up in sceenplay form and have it on my desk in the morning.
Logged

Bruce Thomas

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 647
  • Now where did I put my glasses?
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #65 on: April 13, 2012, 06:53:31 AM »

Back to Lambrecht: As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong) nobody ever asked him what he meant with "Signs of recent habitation". I think, it would be very, very interesting to know that. It would have great influence upon our discussion here!
You're wrong.  A simple search of the TIGHAR site using the keywords "lambrecht interview habitation" reveals he was asked what he meant (Ric gave a brief summary; also see an entry in the old Earhart forum) by Fred Goerner back in the early 1970s.  Alas, Lambrecht's response was equally sparse -- he said he saw "markers," but with no further description of what that meant.
LTM,

Bruce
TIGHAR #3123R
 
Logged
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #66 on: April 13, 2012, 07:43:24 AM »

Back to Lambrecht: As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong) nobody ever asked him what he meant with "Signs of recent habitation". I think, it would be very, very interesting to know that. It would have great influence upon our discussion here!
You're wrong.  A simple search of the TIGHAR site using the keywords "lambrecht interview habitation" reveals he was asked what he meant (Ric gave a brief summary; also see an entry in the old Earhart forum) by Fred Goerner back in the early 1970s.  Alas, Lambrecht's response was equally sparse -- he said he saw "markers," but with no further description of what that meant.

Ok, thanks for the link. But the result is the same: He WAS asked but he had to tell nothing...
Logged

Malcolm McKay

  • Read-only
  • *
  • Posts: 551
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #67 on: April 13, 2012, 08:31:39 AM »


Ok, thanks for the link. But the result is the same: He WAS asked but he had to tell nothing...

That really is the annoying thing isn't it - just like the lost skeletal material. The stuff of hypotheses but not of answers.

The other thing is what I alluded to in a tongue in cheek fashion in my post about Fred and Amelia going their separate ways on the island. The point is that all we have in the way of evidence to surmise that Noonan was injured is that Betty account. But is that a red herring? Let's look at it another way.

By the time of the world flight Earhart was both a celebrity and a source of income for George Putnam through sales of her books and a cut from the lecture circuit fees. But for all her fame we must face the fact that Earhart was not a great pilot and by 1937 trips like this were becoming a bit passe. In 1937 if you had the money you could fly around the world as a passenger - it was a slow and uncomfortable trip but international civil aviation was expanding rapidly. Earhart was not demonstrating anything new or undertaking some new exploit that would advance aviation in any way. She was simply doing it as a personal trip to earn money as a celebrity. In plain speak as far as aviation science was concerned the trip was unnecessary.

She was not a good navigator so she couldn't be allowed to undertake the flight solo so Noonan who was an accomplished navigator, seaman and a pilot himself was hired to be the navigator. He had already achieved a promising position in aviation circles - he didn't need the flight to advance his career, he was hired to navigate Earhart from point A to point B in the best and quickest fashion. A solid professional brief. Earhart is a celebrity but Noonan is a professional well respected navigator.

So by the time they leave for Howland he has had plenty of time to learn all about Earhart's piloting skills and her personality. Before the flight she is billed as in charge, the captain, the valiant aviatrix - all good stuff for the forthcoming book and her reputation, but is that what is happening on the flight away from the public gaze? I suspect that someone like Noonan who is much more used to command than Earhart is capable of sometimes making sure that Earhart doesn't get too big for those brown oxfords. Long intimate lonely hours of flight when each are judging the other's capacity and abilities would mean some conflict of wills - some of which I suspect Noonan would win.

Now when the Electra bumps down on the reef as is supposed (still open to question) what happens. Betty's intercept suggests that Earhart is in charge and Noonan is having a panic attack. I don't see it frankly - Noonan is not a panicky type, he's a mariner with captain's rank. In fact I suspect that Noonan quickly notes the failure of the distress calls and gets them out of the Electra and on to the island because being an experienced seaman he knows that if they are in it when a big wave hits they will be drowned. So if he takes charge which he is quite capable of doing what then happens. In all this discussion the focus is on Earhart - even after death she is in charge, she is the aviatrix in the history books while Noonan is relegated to almost a footnote. We forget that he was the person responsible for all their safe arrivals - Earhart is just the driver, without Noonan's navigation she couldn't have made the trip or got as far as she did.

There is much discussion about the skeleton found by Gallagher  - is it Earhart or is it a castaway Polynesian, but the important thing that is missing is Noonan's skeleton. Why isn't it near the one found in south east - where are his remains and do we really have the usual movie script fate for them of Noonan succumbing as a weak sickly figure cared for by Earhart? or is the script darker and there are real tensions because Noonan blames Earhart for the predicament they are in? I do not see Noonan as the weak victim in this story - is the fact that there is only one skeleton evidence that they had simply split up unable to put up with each other any longer.
Logged

Jeff Victor Hayden

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #68 on: April 13, 2012, 09:58:08 AM »

He might have gone down with the ship like a good captain does in Hollywood films Malcolm ;D
This must be the place
 
Logged

Chris Johnson

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1069
  • Trying to give a fig but would settle for $100,000
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #69 on: April 13, 2012, 10:04:09 AM »

Malcolm,

not sure if you've seen this thread Was Fred Noonan Injured during the landing

I argue that radio evidence suggests an un injured Fred until Betty's note book.  I like your idea that he is trying to take control to save the day.

Alternativly he could have been injured after the crash.

As to his remains they could be anywhere, even near the seven site under some Vola that hasn't been cleared.
Logged

John Ousterhout

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 487
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #70 on: April 13, 2012, 01:01:21 PM »

Why would they stay in the aircraft when the tide began coming in?   They couldn't run the engine once the water got deep enough, and the plane was hot in the afternoon sun.  They would reasonably head towards shade and dry land.  How long would it be until they could return to the aircraft and try transmitting?  6 to 10 hours?  That's enough time to slip on the reef and get injured, and to get awfully thirsty if/when no water was found.  The best hope for signalling rescue would be the radio.  There's no point in making a sign on the beach while the big shiny airplane is sitting there.  A week later, without water, they probably wouldn't be capable of much of any activity.
Cheers,
JohnO
 
Logged

Malcolm McKay

  • Read-only
  • *
  • Posts: 551
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #71 on: April 13, 2012, 07:36:01 PM »

For Chris and Jeff.

Thanks for those comments on my speculation - which of course is all it is.

Concerning possibly injury to Noonan, it occurs to me that if he was injured in a putative landing on the outer reef then it must have been a far more damaging landing than just a normal but bumpy 3 pointer. Perhaps so damaging as to result in one u/c leg being torn off which then would result in what we see in the "Nessie" pic (that is hypothesis, but not impossible). But wouldn't he be aware that a reef landing was coming up and made the effort to properly brace himself? I simply can't imagine Earhart just putting the plane down there, if she did, without giving him plenty of warning. So was he actually injured?

Concerning Betty's notebook. The problem with recollections of events so long after, even with the notes as an aide memoire is that these become embellished in our minds. Perhaps the panic Betty hears isn't panic but simply Noonan telling Earhart to stop fiddling with the radio and get out of the aircraft because if you stay here any longer you will be drowned. Noonan is not panicking but exercising his authority in the manner of a seasoned skipper. He knows that one good wave or a rising tide can float the aircraft off the reef.

Also Earhart is no doubt a golden girl in 1937 to many people. One need only look at our current cult of celebrity to see the phenomenon at work. Any accounts of events like the Betty notes by ordinary people are going relegate Noonan to a secondary role because the press campaign has pushed Earhart to the front. So even Betty's account, accurate or not, is going to have that bias.

There are many extraneous influences at work in the narrative of the final days and they also have to be recognised.

Quick addition  Regarding the skeletal material I am neither accepting it or rejecting it as being Earhart's, simply I like many others would like to see more found which would then lead to a better opportunity for DNA or MitDNA sampling. Noonan's remains location is a vital part of the puzzle, but finding them would be a very difficult task. I suspect somewhere on the NW foreshore area but that is easy for me to say  :D   
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 07:59:08 PM by Malcolm McKay »
Logged

Brad Beeching

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 158
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #72 on: April 13, 2012, 07:59:41 PM »

If any of the theory is true, one of the reasons I believe Mr. Noonan was injured is that there are at least two post loss reports in which the listener said Amelia had said he was. I think on page two of the Mabel Duncklee Letters She mentions his being injured. I thought I saw where her account has been more or less discounted as low on the probability chart, but isn't it odd that she used the same language as Betty? Could she have been somewhere else when she heard it and just misremembered it? There are others who heard Amelia calling for help and also saying he was injured. So now (if any reports are true) we have several people saying the same thing, that they were both injured, Fred being the worse off. There has been some discussion about Fred being delirious and he wouldn't do this or that. When I read the notes that Betty wrote, I get a picture like Ric described: a 911 call.  But my point of all this is best described in an anecdote: When I was in the Army, I once had the misfortune to see a man GROUND into three distinct and very seperate pieces between the treads of two M-60A1 tanks. He remained alert and continually tried to pull himself erect. He also continued to fight with the very people who were doing everything possible to save his life. Now I do NOT believe Fred was as seriously injured as that, but just that what Betty described sounded to me to be the same kind of reaction. I myself fought with my wife when I had a heartattack last year, I was batting her away and tried to get up several times, so I guess I can imagine what they were going through.

But to add to what Mr. LaPook and Mr. McKay wrote, Maybe Ole Fred did tell her to carry her butt to the other end of the dang island! Or how about a murder scene, Fred has gone bonkers and lures her to the 7 site, gives her a delectable little fish with spines all over it, and gets even for having dumped his *ss on a deserted island, no water, no food, no rum... :o

Brad

"why is the rum always gone?"
"Hide the rum!"
Brad

#4327R
 
Logged

Malcolm McKay

  • Read-only
  • *
  • Posts: 551
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #73 on: April 13, 2012, 09:19:42 PM »


Agree - very possible, and Gary LaPook pointed that out as well I believe: if no one was hurt in the Luke Field crash, then why would a lesser impact injure Fred? ...


LTM -

Thanks Jeff, it is a conundrum.

Yes a later rapid infection is possible - these things can come on very quickly. About 4 years ago I was hospitalized with an infected lower left leg. I went from fit and healthy one day to, in the space of two days, be flat on my back in hospital with a leg that looked like it had been deep fried. For the first three days the doctors were debating whether amputation was the only answer as the infection was so bad that it was life threatening. Luckily I suffered neither amputation nor death because the massive cocktail of antibiotics finally beat whatever bug it was - that took five days and I can tell you I was hallucinating like crazy. Hippies would have paid good money for the trip I was off on  ;D  I was utterly immobilised and despite the drugs, the pain in the leg, if any pressure was applied, was indescribable.

But despite close examination of the leg and questioning me no one could work out how I contracted it. In fact I couldn't recall any cut, minor injury or insect bite in the week before it - it just came out of nowhere so I can understand a scenario that sees Noonan succumb to an infection from a cut very quickly. In 1937 there were no antibiotics and certainly nothing available to Earhart and Noonan to treat an infection.

Still I remain sceptical about the Betty diary - not that I am accusing her or others of fraud but that memories play tricks, especially with recollections of an unexpected and garbled radio message. The gist of the messages may be there but the interpretation could be amiss.   
Logged

Malcolm McKay

  • Read-only
  • *
  • Posts: 551
Re: After the Landing
« Reply #74 on: April 13, 2012, 10:01:27 PM »

I think on page two of the Mabel Duncklee Letters She mentions his being injured. I thought I saw where her account has been more or less discounted as low on the probability chart, but isn't it odd that she used the same language as Betty?

I must admit I have a low probability rating for the Mabel Duncklee account as well, not only for the reasons given. It is the second part of that which is not quoted in the TIGHAR bulletin but appears in the PDF of the letter itself on the TIGHAR files that concerns me. That is the account she gives of her son's experience with which she agrees - he says that Earhart and Noonan are buried by friendly natives on an inhabited island. That to me sounds like it has the Saipan or Gilberts hypothesis rolled in. No identity for the island is given - sounds like scuttlebutt rather than a verified account to me.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 28   Go Up
 

Copyright 2019 by TIGHAR, a non-profit foundation. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be reproduced by xerographic, photographic, digital or any other means for any purpose. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be stored in a retrieval system, copied, transmitted or transferred in any form or by any means, whether electronic, mechanical, digital, photographic, magnetic or otherwise, for any purpose without the express, written permission of TIGHAR. All rights reserved.

Contact us at: info@tighar.org • Phone: 610-467-1937 • Membership formwebmaster@tighar.org

Powered by MySQL SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Powered by PHP