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Author Topic: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival  (Read 251721 times)

Malcolm McKay

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #300 on: July 02, 2012, 07:15:34 PM »

Well that stirred up the usual hornet's nest  ;D

A lot of passion offered in rebuttal but the central problem still remains TIGHAR has yet to find any artifact that can be traced back to Earhart and Noonan alone. As for the protestations about my arrogance versus all the nice folks well gosh - I take it that means that if I agree with what the pretty coloured lines appear to show I'm a nice person but if I question the methodology that leads to that identification then I am arrogant. Well my apologies but that's what any professional training does to a person, especially archaeologists (it's what years of people claiming Noah's Ark has been found does to one  :'( ) - it removes the "niceness" gene and replaces it with the "arrogance" gene, or as we who doubt call it the "objective" gene. Just to clarify those are not the scientific terms for these genes.  ;)

Way back in the late 1970's there was an interesting book by John Michell published by Thames and Hudson called Simulacra: Faces and Figures in Nature. It explored the way natural objects can mimic man made objects. Much of what it depicted also relied on our brain's tendency to create order in otherwise disordered things. I think it should be required reading for people seeking to see things in amorphous coral lumps.

Still all our claims, counterclaims, ripostes etc. will be rendered moot by what comes from this current trip to the island.
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #301 on: July 03, 2012, 07:35:46 AM »

Good Idea Chris----here's my group hug:
for those that may not see eye to eye with me, thats ok, but IMHO this is whats happening.
Several, actually MANY more than several, or our members have taken their time, and abilities, and brought forth some very interesting 'insights'. These insights, theories, pictures, charts, graphs, maps, speculations, whatever, have concieved excitement and enthusiasm from the membership. Whether factual or not, isnt the issue.
You have to ask yourself this question: what makes Tighar go? It isnt the members, although they play a major role. Its FUNDING. so what creates funding? lets see---excitement, enthusiasm. A sense of belonging to something larger than we are. We have a great group of members, and I'm pleased to know some of you personally. Alot of you have been in the background, doing your own research on your varied interests. Gary is one of these. my goodness---can you imagine the effort it takes to put all of that stuff together? makes me tired to just think about it. I respect Gary for his efforts. I may not agrre with all he has to say, and I am positive that he doesnt agree with me. But---we have a common ground. Richie, jeff Victor, and now john---whether there is anything on the reef or not, what you guys do is fascinating to me. Wish i have the talents you have. Jeff Nevill  has given me a window into aircraft development that I would probably not have gotten, if not for TIGHAR, and meeting him.
Many others of you have done the same. My point is this: We all came together with excitement and enthusiasm to belong to the organiszation. Ric , Pat, Marty, and others have given us this medium to get together and discuss the possibilities. many of you have offered your own theories, but more important, your expertise, in helping TIGHAR get to this point. Many of you gave your free time to enhance this project, and for that I'm grateful.
Now for the bad news---its not my place to be a parlimentarian. I'll leave that to the administrators. But to impune the efforts of those with enthusiasm is deadly to an organization. When you kill the excitement, the membership slowly slips away, as well as the funding. Granted, our major sponsors have been VERY gracious with their help, and I for one appreciate it. Many of us had donated in our own ways. But to create hate and discontent by telling people they are seeing things in boxes drawn on a picture is not right. So what if Richie, Jeff and John see engines, props, verticals, wings, gear etc in the pictures. Frankly, I see some things too. But, not all of us do, and thats ok. Look at the numbers: the video thread has had 36000+ views! That, Malcolm, ( YES YOU) creates excitement and enthusiasm, which in turn got alot of people thinking, including Ric. Which led to Jeff Glickman's discovery, to The State Dept. press conference, to Discovery, Fed EX, Lockheed Martin, and all of our other major sponsors to come on board for the search.
So---unless you have a better vehicle to get funding, dont sit there and bad mouth someone because of their vision.
One day--perhaps very soon, I hope to see the fruits of their work. . I havent seen yours.

To our other members---my appologies for ranting----but chris is right---we need a group hug!

 
Tom Swearengen TIGHAR # 3297
 
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #302 on: July 03, 2012, 08:25:53 PM »


Nah, hope it doesn't really seem like a hornet's nest - but you do encourage a certain... energy at times.  ;)

And by your reply I think you are also a good sport often enough too.

etc...     

Thanks Jeff, interesting and informative reply. The book I mentioned appears to be OOP but if you ever see a secondhand copy it is interesting reading.

Regards

Malcolm
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #303 on: July 03, 2012, 10:55:29 PM »


I'll leave you with this one for you to answer;

North West Devon early 1980's.  Father and son turning potato patch find vintage Nazi German coin.  Explain?

Dropped by modern coin collector perhaps, or a war souvenir thrown away by some serviceman.

Reminds me of a 5th century BC Greek Black Figure vase found in a rubbish bin in a suburb of Melbourne, Australia in the 1970s by an archaeologist from the University of Melbourne. Just an old vase someone in the house didn't like and left out to go to landfill.

First millennium BC Egyptian scarab figures found in Alice Springs in Central Australia in the 1940s, souvenirs picked up by Australian soldiers in Egypt in 1915. The list of archaeological anachronisms is endless and prove nothing other than that one must always check provenance scrupulously.     
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 11:15:58 PM by Malcolm McKay »
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #304 on: July 04, 2012, 04:29:13 AM »


Fancy another guess or maybe a quick google search?

A clue - Bert Trautman (not possibly right spelling)

BTW in a pre google world i got my answer in a local pub from one of the local gaffers

Trautmann, yes possibly even that. However as my knowledge of English soccer is pretty negligible I may be excused.  :)

Anachronisms in archaeological digs can be pretty common that is why we tend to be very careful defining our stratigraphy and making sure our trench sides are cut cleanly. Some years ago I was involved in a project concerning some distinctive artifacts.

We knew from some early 19th century ethnographic accounts what they were used for, and the text purportedly told us how they were made. When we tried to replicate the process we found that the writer was wrong. After some trial and error we were able to replicate the process, but while that was successful, after I had done the drawings of the process for the publication that followed I was left with a pile of modern reproductions which one obviously did not want to be mixed in with the real ones. These I used as packing under some paving I installed around the side of my house. So I guess in a thousand years time a future archaeologist might find these and surmise that a distinctive feature of a culture far away and across the water from my house somehow had migrated there. I have made it easy for them - I did bed them in concrete.  ;D
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George Pachulski

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #305 on: July 04, 2012, 05:52:23 AM »

just a quick guess , but maybe the coin fell from a german aircraft that was on a bombing run , may have been damaged or some such .....
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JNev

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #306 on: July 04, 2012, 06:48:24 AM »

Chris and Malcolm,

That is an excellent illustration of how 'things found' -

a) can appear and suggest something, and

b) really be something very different.

It is interesting that the mind seems to want to see the 'thing' in a more dramatic light.  I think the apparent mystery of it does that, as perhaps the 'thing' is obviously alien to the place it turned up, e.g. "...wow, an old helmet with HORNS... there HAD to be a viking camp in my field right here in south Georgia!"

The trained mind can resist the urge - I believe Malcolm would caution that there are many, probably more likely reasons, that such thing turned-up here, logically so.  Is it what it appears to be?  If it is real, did someone perhaps come into possession of a real viking helmet by some odd series of events and manage later to lose it in some fashion?  Lastly, if a viking presence on this farm were to ever be proven there'd be much more work to be done and many more findings to be made.  Though it may have been, it may yet remain unproven, as badly as I'd like it to be.

Well, there goes the tourist park and lemonade stand I had in mind...  ;)

Whimsical example, of course, but maybe that's the take away.

LTM -
- Jeff Neville

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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #307 on: July 04, 2012, 08:07:36 AM »

DR. Malcolm----woud you care to expand on thse archaeological digs you were involved in? Just for information sake, so I can understand more about how archaelolgical things are done? Perhaps some of our other members would be interested. Maybe something we can put together for Camp Zero-
Tom Swearengen TIGHAR # 3297
 
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #308 on: July 04, 2012, 06:25:38 PM »

Chris and Malcolm,

That is an excellent illustration of how 'things found' -

a) can appear and suggest something, and

b) really be something very different.

It is interesting that the mind seems to want to see the 'thing' in a more dramatic light.  I think the apparent mystery of it does that, as perhaps the 'thing' is obviously alien to the place it turned up, e.g. "...wow, an old helmet with HORNS... there HAD to be a viking camp in my field right here in south Georgia!"

In the 19th century there was a "historian" who claimed that the ancient Romans had discovered Nth. America. The proof he offered was the occurrence of place names like Rome, Athens etc. in the United States. I kid you not.  ;D
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #309 on: July 04, 2012, 06:28:45 PM »

DR. Malcolm----woud you care to expand on thse archaeological digs you were involved in? Just for information sake, so I can understand more about how archaelolgical things are done? Perhaps some of our other members would be interested. Maybe something we can put together for Camp Zero-

I agree, would like to hear more.  Maybe we should start a different topic to be proper, however. 

The more we can learn and understand about the science of archeology from someone like Malcolm, the more discerning and better our discussions can become on the subject.  Makes the place ever more interesting when we can gain more depth like that.

LTM -

Thanks Jeff but at the risk of appearing stand offish this is really the Earhart search forum so I'll decline beyond saying around Australia and in the ME. I'm happy to offer the odd unsolicited archaeological comment  ;) but I suspect that the discussion will be better if kept on track.
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #310 on: July 04, 2012, 06:31:37 PM »

hum.
Tom Swearengen TIGHAR # 3297
 
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Bruce Thomas

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #311 on: July 04, 2012, 08:13:05 PM »

*Sigh* - I believe it!!!  We happen to have cities by each name here in Georgia, of course... hope it wasn't one of our own.
And don't forget the other cities with familiar Old World names in Georgia:  Bremen, Vienna, Oxford, Hull, Dublin, Dover, Bristol, and Smyrna!
LTM,

Bruce
TIGHAR #3123R
 
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Bruce Thomas

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #312 on: July 05, 2012, 06:38:43 AM »

Its a known fact that your a dumping ground for the flotsam and jestsom of Europe and points North, South, East and West.

Could be worse and your an Aussie, we all know what and where they came from  ;)

Don't forget, Chris:  On more than one occasion the Yanks and Aussies have had to "come home" to help deal with uncivilized behavior among those left behind.  ;D 
LTM,

Bruce
TIGHAR #3123R
 
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #313 on: July 05, 2012, 10:10:16 AM »

Jeff, we have some of those "foreign" names up here in our area too. One of my favorites is Cairo, IL, pronounced locally "Kay-rho".

But my all time favorite is the Kennedy family pronunciation of Cuba as "Q-ber". I love that one.

But we drift here.
Woody (former 3316R)
"the watcher"
 
« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 10:19:41 AM by C.W. Herndon »
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #314 on: July 05, 2012, 10:14:20 PM »



Funny, I overlooked our own 'Cairo', also pronounced 'Kay-ro'!

Yes, I do love the old Kennedy accent - that was always a funny one to me too!
Yep, I've been to kay-ro. And near Springfield Illinois there is AA- thins (Athens) and near the Quad Cities is Ore-ee-on (Orion.)

gl
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 02:31:36 AM by Gary LaPook »
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