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Author Topic: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival  (Read 251731 times)

Malcolm McKay

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #285 on: June 30, 2012, 07:29:03 PM »


NEWS FLASH!!!!

Bitter Aussie dirt digger trolls again (must be Marty withdrawll symptoms)

:) :) ;) ;)

Quote
This can't be a real sirloin steak because i didn't see the cow that it came from

Let me see, your line of reasoning is this.

1. I believe Amelia was on the island,

2. Any doubts expressed about the value of evidence offered to support this are therefore wrong and also absolutely personally offensive to me.


Got it in one didn't I?

Oh the horror as the empty shells of long dead clams were subjected to adventurous theories and debate that sought to prove or disclaim that only Amelia's fair but unskilled hand had wrenched their quivering flesh from their homes. Did the green and blessed isle of Nikumaroro resound with their cries or was there only The Silence of the Clams.   

 ;D 

As anyone with a shred of common sense will tell you rushing to defend the idea that the clam shells can be used as evidence that Earhart and Noonan were on Nikumaroro when in the 28 years of visits to the island we actually have no idea of how many of those people, nor their nationality, had a feed of clams at the site in question is to put it in the Australian parlance a mug's game. In fact I would say that rather than earning your condemnation I should in fact be receiving some thanks.  ;)
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #286 on: June 30, 2012, 07:33:29 PM »


As for Malcolm-----here we go again. Just when I thought you were coming to your senses about jumping to conclusions, you bumped you head again. NO ONE said that AE eating clams was proof she was there. Lets see the clam shells are going to have her mitochondrial DNA --or prehaps even some blood on them form handling the shells.

Tom, when one points out the absolutely bloody obvious one is not jumping to conclusions one is simply doing the discussion a favour. And if you can't accept that then think of it as saving bandwidth.  :)
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #287 on: July 01, 2012, 07:41:53 AM »

Malcolm--no one has 100% proven she was on Niku. That is what these expeditions are all about. To theorize, to search, to learn. That is precisely what TIGHAR is doing. Until proof of evidence of AE being on Niku is found, say she ate clams there is a theory. Maybe the coasties did it. Perhaps she was on Niku. Proof positive is forthcoming. That doesnt mean she was at the 7 site. That in itself is another theory in a long list of theories.
Perhaps, in the dense scaevola on the Northwest side of Niku, is another firecamp, with some of her possessions, to proove she was ther. Doesnt mean she was at the 7 site. Just because I live near the ocean doesnt mean that I go to the beach.
I'm sorry. I'm old fashioned. I had a science teacher once. His favorite saying to us was "show me". So---Malcolm-----show me. Lay out your theories, evidence, and proof, and I'll shut up. Until then, I'll continue to praise Ric, and TIGHAR  for their efforts to proove THEIR THEORY.
Tom Swearengen TIGHAR # 3297
 
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #288 on: July 01, 2012, 06:29:43 PM »

Oh Malcolm,
you say some objects are insignificant, but all theories are equally plausible.  I'd have to argue ALL objects associated with the discussion are equally significant because it is too early to declare any hypothisis dead. That includes phony broadcasts, coke cans, paper cups, floating mines, coral, and photos. Don't destroy your own argument with your own fallacies.

And the parody/sarcasm is fatiguing, which means readers stop reading, for which I guess I should thank you.

L

FLASH !!!!!!

Leon White from the depths of his armchair said today "...parody/sarcasm is fatiguing...". This reporter at the scene can only say that if that is the case it's a good thing he's in his armchair..

 ;D

But in the background we feel The Silence of the Clams.
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #289 on: July 01, 2012, 06:57:59 PM »

Malcolm--no one has 100% proven she was on Niku. That is what these expeditions are all about. To theorize, to search, to learn. That is precisely what TIGHAR is doing.

I totally agree with you Tom - all I was doing was pointing out that speculation over the origins of the clam shells was pointless given all the variables. But then I have come to expect that any attempt to point out that much of the material evidence discussed falls into that same indeterminate category - the problem with this debate is that most of the contributors are trying to defend a conclusion they have come to on the basis of very little real evidence. In those situations their emotions will always take precedence over their normal common sense. For instance on the subject of these clams - how many of our contributors actually examined actual shell middens and deposits? I have and while I'll be howled down for saying this it really isn't easy to determine just what they represent in usage terms, especially in this case where 28 years of settlement have contributed to their creation.   

TIGHAR themselves (not the followers, but the people who actually do the real work) have said that the clam shells have no real evidentiary value, TIGHAR have said that the video footage shows nothing but that hasn't stopped people drawing coloured lines on it and claiming to see things. TIGHAR have quite honestly published the artifacts and they have quite honestly expressed their reservations about the Seven Site.

So rather than join the crowd with the coloured lines, or the ones who claim mystical properties for long dead clams I will happily stick with TIGHAR's reservations in these matters and wait and see what this current expedition reveals. If it finds the proof they have long sought then I will happily congratulate them because they will have earned it. If it doesn't then I will sympathise for TIGHAR but not for those followers silly enough to invest emotion at the expense of objectivity.
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #290 on: July 01, 2012, 07:42:03 PM »

Malcolm---as a scientist, we would think that you would be objective enough to to see others points of view. I cant speak for those that were in DC, but from someone that was there, I can tell you that there were many theories discussed, some of which have NOT made it to this forum. Marty, Tom King and I along with several others had a fairly long discussion of some of these very theories, and we did NOT conduct ourselves in the tone that you are. Dr. King is a HIGHLY reguarded and respected archaeologist, and someone I admire. But he listened to our thoughts and gave a first hand (from someone that had been to Niku) account of possible life and death on Niku. Marty, Jeff, Irv, Bruce, Gary, Lonnie, and the hundred or so others in attendance also listened to theories, and ALL were discussed like educated humans. Even our mystical princess, although I personally had trouble understanding her.

I think what the issue here is your openness to look at others theories from a logical and/or scientific point of view. That is what the forum does---it gives people a platform to state their cases. Some members have talents that you have deficated on, such as Richie, Jeff and now John, with their photo interputations. Drawing boxes around something in a picture doesnt necessarily make it true, but even the most diehard oppoenent must say that there is something down there. In fact, I personally think that Richie and Jeff should get some credit for showing us the possibilities. Lets face it, when the ROV's do find something, the pictures they take will look quite similiar to the ones already posted here. Enough of a possibility, that a full-on underwater expedition is leaving (now Tuesday) to search the reef. Jeff Glickman has done outstanding work , and should be credited also. Look at the thread on the ROV video---36000+ views. That work kept alot of members on this forum. And will continue to.

If you become more open minded, you will get better results. We all have reservations about some of these theories. I'm about as conservative as anyone. Show me the evidence, and I'll believe it. Over the years, TIGHAR has done that. Ric, Andrew, Mark, and a host of others that have been to Niku, gladly answered my questions, without degrading my questions. I found all of these fine people to be very open minded to opposing theories, and to make plans to logically set out to proove them. This expedition is one of these cases. So bring forth the theories, and lets discuss them like growups. The continued bad blood is really getting old, and a turn off to some members. And----again from my point of view and not others---if you dont have something nice to say ---dont say it. WE are all in this together.
Appologies to others, and you know who you are, for being forward on this subject.
Tom.
Tom Swearengen TIGHAR # 3297
 
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #291 on: July 01, 2012, 08:16:13 PM »

The clam shells are not proof, but like much of what Tighar has found, they are a part of multiple clues on where to look. Sometimes a clue, like a fire feature, may only lead to more clues like freckle cream and hand lotion jars. If they find the plane or hard evidence Amelia was at the seven site, one reason will be because Tighar was smart enough to see the importance of the clues that lead them to the proof.
IMHO
3971R
 
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #292 on: July 01, 2012, 10:31:52 PM »

Malcolm---as a scientist, we would think that you would be objective enough to to see others points of view.

Ummm.. I think that my unstinting objectivity is the problem isn't it Tom, I'm being objective and questioning what is, in many cases, unquestioning acceptance by people as to the origins and relevance of artifacts, or saying straight out that simply drawing coloured lines on an image of a chunk of coral doesn't mean that it magically becomes a genuine contender for being an aircraft part. And as a result I find myself under attack by armchair enthusiasts who desperately want to believe that the Nikumaroro hypothesis is the answer. Unfortunately the plain facts are that desperate belief is no answer for lack of hard evidence and all the coloured lines drawn on ROV footage is simply coloured lines drawn on ROV footage.

Equally none of the artifacts examined can be undeniably linked to Earhart or Noonan rather than any other visitor or resident of the island in the 28 years from 1937 to 1965. Even TIGHAR admit this - they have made cases for the artifacts but those cases have failed to find wide acceptance. Now that is not the result of a conspiracy against TIGHAR it is simply that people, like myself, who do have some professional understanding of some of the problems associated with artifact analysis are simply not convinced and we have suggested alternatives that are just as plausible. Now even TIGHAR admits that the cases for artifact provenance are tenuous at the very best and that is why they keep searching. More power to them if they do persist but in the end it will be hard evidence not the enthusiasm of their supporters that will decide the case.

For instance TIGHAR have said that the ROV footage shows nothing conclusive at all, and they have said quite openly that any resemblance between the lumps of coral of indeterminate size (no scale in the footage) and aircraft components is purely fanciful. They (the TIGHAR management) are sensible enough to know that any claim they made otherwise would be treated with absolute and deserved derision by the scientific community unless the object was clearly an aircraft part. Yet here amateur enthusiasts play with coloured lines and slap each other on the back when yet another "find" is announced, but I notice that TIGHAR is keeping well clear - that tells me something, I don't know about you. Perhaps you should think about that.     
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #293 on: July 01, 2012, 11:17:45 PM »

The clam shells are not proof, but like much of what Tighar has found, they are a part of multiple clues on where to look. Sometimes a clue, like a fire feature, may only lead to more clues like freckle cream and hand lotion jars. If they find the plane or hard evidence Amelia was at the seven site, one reason will be because Tighar was smart enough to see the importance of the clues that lead them to the proof.
IMHO

Sorry Greg but if a series of clues in themselves are not proof then by combining them you still remain without proof. I remarked once before about over egging the pudding. If you have any solid proof then it is not necessary to add to it items which in themselves offer no proof - only the items that are genuine proof are necessary to prove your hypothesis. In fact by adding items which cannot be definitely linked to the case then you simply cheapen what you do have. So far TIGHAR have not produced clear proof - I hope for their sake's they finally do on this trip but to date they haven't and that's the plain truth.
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #294 on: July 02, 2012, 12:45:48 AM »

Malcolm
I agree with what you said. However, I don't see why it was said in response to what I said or why it started with "sorry Greg".
Where in the quote from me did I say a series of clues in themselves are proof?
Or combining them makes them proof?
I did not say that at all and don't even think that.

If you do not agree that IF they find hard evidence , one reason will be because Tighar was smart enough to see the importance of the clues that lead them to the proof I would be glad to hear why.

If you do not agree with my statement which says there are clues on where to look for proof I would be glad to hear why. 

If you are not going to respond to what I said, either in disagreement or agreement, please start another post without quoting me.

3971R
 
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #295 on: July 02, 2012, 05:59:08 AM »

Malcolm correct on the thought about management being very cautious about our friends underwater 'findings', especially in the public arena. BUT-----they are going to Niku arent they? They are doing and underwater search arent they? Because tof the Bevington object? perhaps, but consider this---would YOU spend $2 mil on a search based on a guess---or a pretty good believe that you find the object (s) in question. I thing Ric has a pretty good isea of what he's doing---at least that was the impression I got from TALKING to him in DC. Whether he actually thinks there is other wreckage on the reef or not, wasnt converyed, but they are looking for the Bevington object.
And---do you think that the major sponsors would pony up the $$ on a whim? NO---they have some pretty good evidence, or they wouldnt be going. I assume you disagree with that?
Look---we can debate this until hell freezes over, but I say lets see what happens in the next few weeks.
Tom Swearengen TIGHAR # 3297
 
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #296 on: July 02, 2012, 12:08:28 PM »

Jeff---well said my friend. BTW---Lisa is getting a guided tour of KOK by Ric tiday. Guess you just have to be in the right place at the right time!!! Lucky girl!
Tom
Tom Swearengen TIGHAR # 3297
 
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #297 on: July 02, 2012, 04:27:03 PM »

Havent heard, but I think she'll be ok. I'm sure Ric will do a head count before they leave!!
if she calls in 'well' tomorrow, we'll know where to find her! LOL
Tom Swearengen TIGHAR # 3297
 
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #298 on: July 02, 2012, 05:18:42 PM »

Due to circumstances the majority of us are "armchair enthusiasts". We do what we can. The distance between my location and Nikumaroro is roughly 9000 miles, then a further 1000 ft to the reef area we are interested in. Now, with the best will in the world I can't envisage me ever being able to paddle about (or anyone else at 1000 ft) looking for bits of aircraft. The cost and the logisticts involved in getting the kit needed to get anywhere close to the area of the reef in question is mind boggling.
So, it's the "armchair enthusiasm" (if I had an armchair) and days of research I'm afraid. All volunteered willingly.
Note: There are a number of theories regarding the missing Electra, this is one of the top 2. I don't disregard one theory or another.
Armchairs R us here I come  ;D
This must be the place
 
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Adam Marsland

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #299 on: July 02, 2012, 06:45:40 PM »

Malcolm in reducto:

1. evidence = proof.
2. Any form of imagination or data assessment absent proof = wild speculation, and anti-science.
3. All theories are equally valid absent proof.  Only evidence that meets Malcolm's criteria should be considered seriously, no matter how overwhelming or cumulative it is. To consider unproven evidence in toto, no matter how supportive of a given hypothesis or indicative of productive areas of further research, is worthy of ridicule.
4.  return to 1.
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