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Author Topic: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival  (Read 251707 times)

Gary LaPook

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #270 on: June 29, 2012, 04:25:15 PM »


d) apparently learned over time, as the second batch of shells show no damage

Were the shells actually marked "batch one "and "batch two" or did you and King group them that way to fit your theory?
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e) perhaps used these clam shells to try to collect water

That behavior does not seem to be consistent with a Pacific Islander, or with American Coasties from NE who might know more about bivalves.  One can also presume that the Coasties would have learned the islander way of harvesting clams quickly through observation.

Speculation, and later on you claim that the coasties were prevented from observing how islanders did anything, which must include how they opened clams.
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Such behavior might be consistent with a castaway who hadn't spent a lot of time in the Pacific, and might have been familiar with Oysters.  We know of one such missing person in the area who grew up in Kansas, but did live in Boston for while.  We also know that Niku had a castaway somewhere down on that part of the island who appears not to be a pacific islander. 
No, we don't know that Niku had a castaway, that is your speculation from the bones and shells found on the island.
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Proven?  Certainly not, and we've never claimed it was a proven connection, just one that would be consistent with a scenario of AE making it to Niku and being that castaway.  If you don't think AE was the castaway of Nikumaroro, then you have two missing European females to account for instead of just one. Simpler to have one.
More speculation, see prior comment.
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I believe that the interviews with the CG guys, they indicated that they did not eat the local seafood, they rarely went into the bush (such that a trip to the 7 site they do remember well), they did not have opportunities to mix with the locals in unsupervised conditions, and they did trade with the islanders for items which include inlaid pieces of non zinc chromate aluminum alclad.

It is easy to poke holes at any unproven hypothesis with speculative offerings, but at least we've tried to do some homework on the activities at the 7 site and Nikumaroro in general, and tried to make sense of what we have found on Nikumaroro in the context of known events there.  You guys have only offered speculation.  How do you know the CG guys were from NE?
Take a random sampling of a hundred people in the Coast Guard and a random sampling of one person from Kansas. Which sample is more likely to contain a person who knows the New England method of opening clams?
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 You don't.  What evidence do you have to offer that the 7 site was used as lover's lane for trysts between CG guys and island girls?  None, in fact there is evidence to the contrary if you wanted to look for it.  What analysis of of the artifacts at the 7 site have you performed? 

TIGHAR's approach is to try to determine if the artifacts and the 7 site are actually connected to other known events - the castaway known to be on the island, and AE disappearing.
More speculation, see prior comment.
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 By far, when artifacts have been proven not to be related, it has been TIGHAR who proved they were unrelated to AE, not armchair archaeologists.  What's left is the stuff we think might be related, and we can't prove came from somewhere else.  We are our own critics, and we've had to eat crow a number of times, but the basic hypothesis - our working scenario - still stands.


Andrew

gl
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Jon Romig

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #271 on: June 29, 2012, 04:38:35 PM »

Due to thread drift, I'm replying to the following post from the Lambrect search thread found here http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,253.0/topicseen.html

   This is just one scenario, of what I would think should be very many scenarios, that better answers the question about how the artifacts got to the seven site, than the Amelia Earhart as the castaway of the seven site theory does.
   
   All the artifacts that we have found at the seven site could easily have gotten there without the existence of a  castaway. 
 occam’s razor ?

GLP

cn't lay my hands on the exact reference as i'm between locations but I have recently read about AE digging for and eating oysters/clams the American way!!
Tom King made much out of the many clam shells found at the seven site because they had not been opened in the native fashion but in the standard American fashion so Eahart must have been a castaway opening those clam shells. I was born and raised in Chicago and I have no idea of how to open a clam shell, American or otherwise. Amelia was born and raised in Atchison Kansas, just down the street from Chicago, so why would anybody think she knew the standard American way to open a clam? But of all those Coasties, I'll bet that some were from New England so it is much more likely that it was the Coasties that had the traditional Down East Clam Bake at the seven site than Earhart.

gl

I don't know where I saw it but it was somewhere on this site - that AE learned to open and eat clam on the US East Coast. Having done so myself I can attest to the distinctive way you open a clam on the East Coast (at the hinge, especially Quahogs), consistent with what was found at the Seven site.

The interesting question is: how many other places in the world are clams opened this way? If few or none, that is another piece of evidence.


You guys are missing the point about the clams.
....
It is easy to poke holes at any unproven hypothesis with speculative offerings, but at least we've tried to do some homework on the activities at the 7 site and Nikumaroro in general, and tried to make sense of what we have found on Nikumaroro in the context of known events there.  You guys have only offered speculation.  How do you know the CG guys were from NE?  You don't.  What evidence do you have to offer that the 7 site was used as lover's lane for trysts between CG guys and island girls?  None, in fact there is evidence to the contrary if you wanted to look for it.  What analysis of of the artifacts at the 7 site have you performed? 
Andrew

Thanks Andrew, for your detailed exposition on this issue. I remember gathering smallish clams at the beach (Plum Island, MA) where if you tried to open them on the "strike" side they just chipped and broke. The hinge side worked much better. But these were small clams, easy to open at the hinge and easy to shatter at the leading edge.

In any case, it appears you misunderstood me and GL (I don't know how, given the above quote) - we feel the clams are evidence (not proved/circumstantial) of AE's presence.

Of perhaps I misunderstand you?

Thanks,

JR
Jon Romig 3562R
 
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #272 on: June 29, 2012, 04:59:15 PM »

Trying to think what they could use to put all the collected water in. Obviously it would be from the Electra and be capable of holding something more substantial than the broken bottle at the 7 site did. Were there any Jerry cans or something similar on the Electra? something that was watertight and wouldn't leak, an inflated life raft would have been good >:(


This must be the place
 
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 05:12:54 PM by Jeff Victor Hayden »
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #273 on: June 29, 2012, 05:32:59 PM »

Maybe the 2 canteens seen in this video, Light enough yet large enough in volume to be blown away so no evidence of them remains.
http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675063657_Amelia-Earhart-Putnam_Fred-Noonan_transatlantic-flight_Fred-Noonan
Also the Benedictine bottle found in the area. The cork and chain found could have been for a cask

She could have rigged a rain catch and collected a good amount of water but maybe could not have moved the container from where it was filled. Maybe the N.C lifeboat itself served as a water catch.

The N.C. camp and its stash of containers may have been her base camp where she left a water collector and the seven site was a second camp for living
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #274 on: June 29, 2012, 07:35:28 PM »

Clams? the debate has descended to speculations about opened clam shells as proof that Earhart was there? One small question what about the Coast Guard people, the Norwich City survivors, the various survey visits before the PISS settlement, various Nikumaroroans who just smashed the odd clam open a different way - the possible explanations for this rather insignificant feature are endless. Now I can say is that the current trip better turn up some hard evidence because the discussion is drifting off into Nephelokokkygia. Hey perhaps that's where Amelia and Fred landed.  ;D   
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John Ousterhout

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #275 on: June 29, 2012, 09:09:27 PM »

"... this rather insignificant feature ..."
Malcom, I'm surprised that you commit this statement to print.  Why do you jump to the conclusion that it is rather insignificant?
Cheers,
JohnO
 
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #276 on: June 29, 2012, 10:08:04 PM »

"... this rather insignificant feature ..."
Malcom, I'm surprised that you commit this statement to print.  Why do you jump to the conclusion that it is rather insignificant?

Oh here we go FLASH !!!!! Hold the presses, we have a new front page story.

"Nikumaroro devotee shocked to see common sense applied to assessment of vital evidence that shows 100% proof positive that perhaps and just maybe Amelia Earhart might have possibly or perhaps or maybe opened a clam if she had possibly or perhaps or maybe landed on the island.

People all over the world were stunned by this news, millions have in fact gone into mourning while the Secretary of the United Nations has asked for a special world day of prayer to ask whatever deity you worship should compel the blasphemer to recant from his terrible claim that common sense might be applied. Our reporter has sent back accounts of the world wide response that are so harrowing that we cannot print them here such is the level of human suffering and tragedy caused by this heedless request. We, as a responsible news media, can only pray that this so-called plea to so-called common sense will go unheeded and that these clam shells will once more, in their mute but humble way offer us the true path to understanding that certain scratch marks on their shells do indeed show us that they were once opened by the blessed hand of Amelia Earhart while Fred Noonan plucked out gentle tunes on his ukulele as the sun sank slowly in the west."

   

Because sometimes pure common sense plus some real archaeological experience can tell me what is truly and demonstrably of little use in tracking the behaviour of one or two individuals especially as there was from 1937 to 1965 28 years of proven human activity on the island in which no doubt many clams gave up the ghost in a variety of ways to provide snacks.

I notice that no one has spared a single hint of concern for these poor clams ripped screaming (or whatever noise clams make) from their shells. Perhaps we start a new thread -

The Silence of the Clams. 
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #277 on: June 29, 2012, 10:35:35 PM »

The Silence of the Clams

Good one Malcolm, a little humour doesn't hurt
IMHO of course
This must be the place
 
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richie conroy

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #278 on: June 29, 2012, 10:48:51 PM »

The clam's

at first u do anythink to open them, i.e smash them, burn them, butcher them, what ever it takes to open them

by time u move on a bit couple days later to new camp, u have learnt how to open them easily

without destroying them  :)

I know lets ask the clam for witnesses

can't sorry they became food  :o

just like the engine tag or sapian theory, it's speculation
We are an echo of the past


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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #279 on: June 30, 2012, 12:23:24 AM »

Yes you are right Richie, in the matter before the bench the clams are irrelevant and will always be irrelevant - fiat justitia ruat caelum.
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Andrew M McKenna

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #280 on: June 30, 2012, 01:57:06 AM »

Look, neither I nor TIGHAR ever said that the clams are proof of Earhart being there.

We're trying to understand the 7 site in the context of a known castaway somewhere down at that end of the island.  In that context, we know that there is a final Camp Infinity and Beyond down there somewhere, Gallagher found and reported it, and the 7 site just might be that place.

We also know that AE was missing in the area, and just might be that castaway.

Is it really such a leap to consider that the clams might be related to AE?

Not proven by any means to be related to AE, I never said so, yes it is speculation.  That is why it is a hypothesis - an unproven thing, but to me it seems worth pursuing to see if we can prove it, or disprove it.  As I mentioned before, TIGHAR has disproved connections to AE more than anyone else.  You seem to think that we're adverse to that outcome, but we're not.  Often disappointing, but it is part of the process.

Andrew
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #281 on: June 30, 2012, 07:43:01 AM »

Chris, I realize this has nothing to do with this topic but since you brought it up, why do you remember Orvil? Wilbur was the first to fly.

Or is this a different Orvil?
Woody (former 3316R)
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #282 on: June 30, 2012, 07:53:14 AM »

That's ok. I remember Wilbur since we were both pilots and share the same birthday so I guess I cheat a little.
Woody (former 3316R)
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« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 04:54:01 PM by C.W. Herndon »
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #283 on: June 30, 2012, 12:25:49 PM »

Woody---WE're cool. Good point on the shooting.
As for Malcolm-----here we go again. Just when I thought you were coming to your senses about jumping to conclusions, you bumped you head again. NO ONE said that AE eating clams was proof she was there. Lets see the clam shells are going to have her mitochondrial DNA --or prehaps even some blood on them form handling the shells.
First yo uneed to show she was THERE---which we are attempting to do this summer by finding the plane. Without the plane, its speculation, which we said we weren't doing. Find the parts of the plane show that she 'may' have been there. Last I heard, we havent found anything that 100% no doubt prooves she was there. NO diary, no clothes with AE embroidered in them, no pilots license (like steve fossett). What we have is a good theory, and you should be enough of a scientist no avoid making a stupid comment like that.
Maybe she ate coconuts and monkeys at your New Britian site. Give us a break and post something constructive, and not AE ate clams at the 7 site. Gee--- you and Julia have this all figured out. The psychic and the scientist. Sounds like a reality TV program.
Tom Swearengen TIGHAR # 3297
 
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richie conroy

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #284 on: June 30, 2012, 05:40:07 PM »

Thing is Tom

When Tighar confirm next week that the wreck of the Electra is there

people will still not believe the flight ended there, But will say it probably floated there  ???

for me the sextant box alone is enough evidence that Earhart and Noonan ended their days there.. Why

1) because if it was off Norwich City, like the life boats it would have rotted away an be a pile of nails/screws by time of discovery

2) The sextant box and bones were discovered before the Loran station was even built... I wonder however, how Gallagher came to the assumption that one set of bones were a woman's and the scull found a short distance away was a man's

i know the shoe part's led Gallagher to believe what he stated, the remains were of a woman..

but how did he know the skull found a short distance away was male ?

is it safe to say that the male castaway died first due too only skull being found ?

due to one side of female remains, is it possible to speculate the cast away died lying on there side ?

In the Lamberct photo of gardner taken while searching for ameila,  july 1937 the seven site is easily seen

in the 1938 photo, taken from similar place there appears to be a arrow shaped anomaly that were'nt there in 1937 photo   

 
We are an echo of the past


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