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Author Topic: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival  (Read 251696 times)

Malcolm McKay

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #255 on: April 08, 2012, 07:47:51 PM »

Malcom,

To each his own - but for those who refuse to quit searching we find much to take heart in.  We are apparently in good company - in case you missed it, Robert Ballard of Titanic fame, etc. seems to now be among us sad adherents, as you seem to see us.

'Irrefutable proof' is what we search for - not what we claim to hold.  And yes, there is still a margin for error that we face.  As a scientific seeker yourself you must appreciate that - archeology is not just about what may happen to fall into your screen, the great expeditions have always been based on someone's vision of what might be found. ....

For some of us, others who naysay may be in danger of becoming a club of folks who "peter out into just an ever dwindling band of adherents stubbornly refusing to admit" that anything other than splash and sink could have been the case.  But, as I've said, to each his own.  I'll choose to adhere to the likes of TIGHAR, Gillespie, Ballard, and folks like that - if that's stubborn, praise be.

LTM -

I think you you missed my point which was to date nothing has been found that provides any irrefutable evidence. Now that is not me saying give up and find something else to do, I was just pointing out the bare facts. No archaeological project that I have been involved in had any element of "vision" or any other form of transcendental objectives. They were built around the rather dry and uninspiring reality of understanding human behaviour through its material remains.

At all times one was aware that there is a cutoff point - sometimes it is nothing more than hitting bedrock in a trench with nothing found to add to one's understanding. At other times it is when a thorough survey of a designated area reveals nothing that is worth further investigation - there are a lot like that. In the end if one finds nothing then it is a pretty good indication that there is nothing to be found. But looking at the scant material evidence found so far on Nikumaroro I think there is still some room for further investigation but unfortunately not all that much. In itself if the search doesn't turn up anything then that is a positive because it removes one hypothesis and that is, as in traditional archaeology, just part of the process of scientific investigation.
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Monty Fowler

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #256 on: April 16, 2012, 12:12:21 PM »

Or to quote Monty Python and The Holy Grail, "But I don't want to get on the cart ... "  ;D

LTM,
Monty Fowler
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Thom Boughton

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #257 on: April 16, 2012, 11:11:05 PM »

"On second thought, let's not go to Camelot......it is a silly place!"
TIGHAR #3159R
 
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #258 on: May 23, 2012, 03:42:11 PM »

Regarding the Castaway movie, there was the scene where Noland buried the pilot.
Would Amelia have buried Fred if she could?
Would she have buried him with his sextant as a gesture?
The sextant was missing from the box found.
Maybe a metal detector search near the wreck site, where there is also soft soil, could then find his remains.
3971R
 
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Bill Mangus

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #259 on: May 23, 2012, 04:12:46 PM »

Another possible explanation:  Maybe Fred never got out of the aircraft or never made it to the beach! 
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Heath Smith

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #260 on: May 23, 2012, 04:14:05 PM »

It would seem reasonable that parts of the sextant, if not most of it, would be at the Bones Site. I believe a piece of the sextant, and inverted eye piece was found at the Bones Site but later lost as it was shipped and passed around during the investigation.

It would also seem to be a great target for a metal detector as well.
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #261 on: May 23, 2012, 05:22:02 PM »

... I believe a piece of the sextant, and inverted eye piece was found at the Bones Site but later lost as it was shipped and passed around during the investigation.

Here is an index into the items found by GBG on Niku.

Here is the story of the alleged "inverting eye piece."

It was seen by others, not by GBG, and lost or stolen.

I'm pretty sure that the Seven Site has been metal detected to within an inch of its life.  Ground penetrating radar has been used, too, though without any notable success.
LTM,

           Marty
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #262 on: May 23, 2012, 06:34:11 PM »

I think Amelia may have used the sextant box to carry other things. The inverting eye piece to start fires, kindling to be kept dry, small water bottle, etc. maybe some papers. The box may have had a shoulder strap attached by the 2 screw thingies yet to be ID'd. I can't see her carrying the actual heavy sextant around. I would think to look near the wreck for the sextant, or maybe the shoe site.(likely already scanned) Or scan anything that looked like a grave.
3971R
 
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John Ousterhout

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #263 on: May 23, 2012, 10:42:56 PM »

The research I've done so far indicates that the description of the sextant box found does not match that of any sextant box that AE/FN might have carried on the flight.  My search is not conclusive, and there is still the chance that they might have had an older-style marine-style sextant on the flight, in addition to the octant known to have been loaned to Fred, but the description of the sextant box does not, to me, improve the likelihood that the castaways were associated with Amelia's flght.
I'm more than willing to be wrong on this account, and will continue bugging the Naval Historian to try to find out what records exist.  It's a loose-end.
Cheers,
JohnO
 
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Andrew M McKenna

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #264 on: June 29, 2012, 03:13:05 AM »

Due to thread drift, I'm replying to the following post from the Lambrect search thread found here http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,253.0/topicseen.html

   This is just one scenario, of what I would think should be very many scenarios, that better answers the question about how the artifacts got to the seven site, than the Amelia Earhart as the castaway of the seven site theory does.
   
   All the artifacts that we have found at the seven site could easily have gotten there without the existence of a  castaway. 
 occam’s razor ?

GLP

cn't lay my hands on the exact reference as i'm between locations but I have recently read about AE digging for and eating oysters/clams the American way!!
Tom King made much out of the many clam shells found at the seven site because they had not been opened in the native fashion but in the standard American fashion so Eahart must have been a castaway opening those clam shells. I was born and raised in Chicago and I have no idea of how to open a clam shell, American or otherwise. Amelia was born and raised in Atchison Kansas, just down the street from Chicago, so why would anybody think she knew the standard American way to open a clam? But of all those Coasties, I'll bet that some were from New England so it is much more likely that it was the Coasties that had the traditional Down East Clam Bake at the seven site than Earhart.

gl

I don't know where I saw it but it was somewhere on this site - that AE learned to open and eat clam on the US East Coast. Having done so myself I can attest to the distinctive way you open a clam on the East Coast (at the hinge, especially Quahogs), consistent with what was found at the Seven site.

The interesting question is: how many other places in the world are clams opened this way? If few or none, that is another piece of evidence.


You guys are missing the point about the clams.

First of all, I'm not sure that Tom King would say there is a "standard" American way to open a clam, however if you have sat at an oyster / clam bar you would notice that the person shucking will typically to open a clam by inserting his/her clam shucking knife between the shells from the front, away from the hinge. see http://video.about.com/gourmetfood/How-to-Open-Clams.htm
 
You would also notice that when shucking oysters, they insert an oyster knife knife, somewhat different than a clam knife, from the hinge side and pry it open.  see http://video.about.com/gourmetfood/How-to-Shuck-Oysters.htm

This is because the hinge of an oyster is held together primarily by a ligament, whereas the hinge of a clam has more developed interlocking parts of the shell called hinge teeth, and is generally much stronger and resistant to the shucker's knife.

What Tom has suggested, based upon the tridacna clam shells that were left behind, is that the person trying to open them:

a) did not know the usual pacific islander way of harvesting these clams which is to either cut the meat out while they are still in the water, or leave them on shore down by the beach until they open and harvest the meat.  Islanders don't drag 20 lbs of tridacna clams 100 yards into the bush.

b) attempted to open them from the hinge side using a tool, as if they were an oyster.

c) got frustrated and bashed in one side of the shell

d) apparently learned over time, as the second batch of shells show no damage

e) perhaps used these clam shells to try to collect water

That behavior does not seem to be consistent with a Pacific Islander, or with American Coasties from NE who might know more about bivalves.  One can also presume that the Coasties would have learned the islander way of harvesting clams quickly through observation.

Such behavior might be consistent with a castaway who hadn't spent a lot of time in the Pacific, and might have been familiar with Oysters.  We know of one such missing person in the area who grew up in Kansas, but did live in Boston for while.  We also know that Niku had a castaway somewhere down on that part of the island who appears not to be a pacific islander. 

Proven?  Certainly not, and we've never claimed it was a proven connection, just one that would be consistent with a scenario of AE making it to Niku and being that castaway.  If you don't think AE was the castaway of Nikumaroro, then you have two missing European females to account for instead of just one.  Simpler to have one.

I believe that the interviews with the CG guys, they indicated that they did not eat the local seafood, they rarely went into the bush (such that a trip to the 7 site they do remember well), they did not have opportunities to mix with the locals in unsupervised conditions, and they did trade with the islanders for items which include inlaid pieces of non zinc chromate aluminum alclad.

It is easy to poke holes at any unproven hypothesis with speculative offerings, but at least we've tried to do some homework on the activities at the 7 site and Nikumaroro in general, and tried to make sense of what we have found on Nikumaroro in the context of known events there.  You guys have only offered speculation.  How do you know the CG guys were from NE?  You don't.  What evidence do you have to offer that the 7 site was used as lover's lane for trysts between CG guys and island girls?  None, in fact there is evidence to the contrary if you wanted to look for it.  What analysis of of the artifacts at the 7 site have you performed? 

TIGHAR's approach is to try to determine if the artifacts and the 7 site are actually connected to other known events - the castaway known to be on the island, and AE disappearing.  By far, when artifacts have been proven not to be related, it has been TIGHAR who proved they were unrelated to AE, not armchair archaeologists.  What's left is the stuff we think might be related, and we can't prove came from somewhere else.  We are our own critics, and we've had to eat crow a number of times, but the basic hypothesis - our working scenario - still stands.


Andrew


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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #265 on: June 29, 2012, 06:53:40 AM »

Although I find the speculation surrounding how to open clams interesting I always have a thought at the back of my mind when reading these posts,
WATER
Water water everywhere and not a drop to drink.
Three to seven days in a normal situation before serious health issues kick in.

So, unless the clam harvest started very early on in the scenario...
This must be the place
 
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #266 on: June 29, 2012, 07:28:22 AM »

I agree with Jeff that the quest for water would quickly become a major problem but let us not underestimate AE's abilities. While there is no way, that I know of at this time, to determine which, if any, of these photos were merely for publicity, some may have been for real.

Shooting a pistol, she was known to carry one.

http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,686

Fishing, apparently of the deep sea variety.

http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,691

Parachuting although it appears to be off of some type of tower like they featured at amusement parks in the "distant" past.

http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,496

And deep sea diving?

http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,203

Here are the pictures referenced above for those who would rather just look at them.
Woody (former 3316R)
"the watcher"
 
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 07:47:46 AM by C.W. Herndon »
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #267 on: June 29, 2012, 01:09:39 PM »

Woody---no offense---
My sister shot a pistol once, has fished off shore, but didnt bait her hook, or remove the fish, hasnt jumped off anything ( does getting thrown from a horse count?), diving---lets see, does wetting her hair count?

My point is---these may be things that AE did, but can she hack it on her own on a deserted island in the pacific? Fish with something that you scavenged from the wreckage, or found on the island? (I bet the black tip sharks were asking who is that?)
All of these are questions that have yet to be answered. As we continue to find answers, we open up alot more questions. This is getting fun!
KOK sails on Monday!
 
Tom Swearengen TIGHAR # 3297
 
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #268 on: June 29, 2012, 01:29:52 PM »

Tom, I did not take offense but please note that I did say "some may have been for real". In my opinion the shooting may have been real. The others are very shaky although fishing tackle was listed on the Luke Field inventory. Maybe FN was supposed to do that, at least take care of the hooks.

You're right, this is getting to be fun!
Woody (former 3316R)
"the watcher"
 
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #269 on: June 29, 2012, 01:40:34 PM »

Chris
I think the weather around that time was "fine with occasional squalls". That from the subseqent search of the area. So there would have been an opportunity to collect rainfall, if one of the squalls was over Gardner. Have to be something big to collect enough water for 2 people for 7+ days? in the limited time of the squall/s. Could be done though.
Wells were dug by the PISS scheme but nothing ever found so, wherever the vegetation get's it water from was never revealed. ;)
This must be the place
 
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