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Author Topic: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival  (Read 251697 times)

Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #165 on: April 04, 2012, 12:26:48 PM »


Brad
Re: "little or no water"
There was a 14 day supply of water on the life boats.  Let's see, 14 days for a crew of 35 equals 490 man-days. Minus 24survivors  times 5 days (120 man-days) till rescue, leaves 370 man-days for AE and FN i.e.185 days each (6 months).  They prolly weren't hurting for water.
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #166 on: April 04, 2012, 01:02:49 PM »

Very plausible scenario which could go a long way in explaining some of the other mysteries e.g. An empty sextant box found on Gardner, missing lifeboat...
Also, the best time to be searching for or heading towards rescuers is while the rescuers/searchers are still around, not 3 months later for example.
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« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 01:07:07 PM by Jeff Victor Hayden »
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #167 on: April 04, 2012, 01:09:03 PM »


I don't know whether Gary was serious or not, but it certainly makes sense that facing death on that island if they didn't do something, and having 4 lifeboats staring them in the face, they would use the pllane to drag a boat a short distance to where the tide would float it.

I wonder what kind of equipment the boats had,  oars, sails?  Fred had charts and a sextant maybe two.  There were water and rations.
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richie conroy

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #168 on: April 04, 2012, 01:58:57 PM »

an failing getting the life raft from shore to water, the fuel tanks were quick release take the four out fuselage

tie them together bobs ye auntie  ;D
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richie conroy

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #169 on: April 04, 2012, 02:41:42 PM »

because there was none when they first got shipwrecked, however the rescue boat sent supply's over an what was left stored incase anyone else was shipwrecked
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #171 on: April 04, 2012, 03:33:48 PM »

an failing getting the life raft from shore to water, the fuel tanks were quick release take the four out fuselage

tie them together bobs ye auntie  ;D
Why do you say the tanks were "quick release?"

gl
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richie conroy

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #172 on: April 04, 2012, 03:48:31 PM »

because it says in a document i have on a memory stick from purdue, that the tanks were quick release so in the event of the plane going down on water they could disregard them an the plane would stay afloat,

i.e thats what them bar's were for ?

but let me check first as i prob am wrong an they were quick release fuel not tanks  :-X 
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Brad Beeching

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #173 on: April 04, 2012, 04:05:32 PM »

Well fella's... I'll step away from reality for a few and take a swig of whatever it is you guy's are drinkin'. I will concede that maybe they found some still potable water after what? 8 years? Now granted, I don't have a Phd in nuclear engineering, Biometrics, or anything as lofty as you kind gentlemen but I do have some hands on experience in the water field.... in fact some 20 years worth. Do we know how the emergency water was treated back in the 20's? when the treating of water was in it's infancy? I submit, (with no documentation) that the water, if it was still there at all would not be fit to drink. I'd be willing to bet a Coke that if you sealed a glass of water right out of your tap at home, it would be unfit to drink within a week. The fresh water was supposed to be stored in wooden casks was it not? For those who have been to Niku, how long does wood survive unattended and unmaintained in that environment? I would hazzard a guess and say that the casks may very well have deteriorated to the point where they couldnt use them. They may have held some water, but not what we might think. As for using the plane to pull a lifeboat, we are talking about the Electra right? So we figured that there was a smaller boat missing, How small? and if I had gas enough in the plane to taxi around the island like a taxi, why not take it off and fly it to Never-Never land, the whole idea is ridiculous. On average it takes about 3 times the weight to pull something free thats resting on the ground. In other words, If I had a something that weighs 10 pounds in a static condition, it takes something like 30 pounds of pull to get it to move on wet sand. Use the airplane? I doubt that very seriously. As stated before, I think they may have tried to tie off on something in hopes of saving the plane, they salvaged what the could before the plane submerged and then took up residence on the island. I think the reason we haven't heard of anything Fred is because he just hasn't been found yet, Or he got mixed up with the bones of the Norwich City victims. COULD he have left Amelia and sailed off alone? Of course he could have, I just don't believe they did. I believe that they landed hard, they both were injured in the landing, they did what they could to bring help to themselves and failed. I believe the plane was damaged enough that it took them some time to recover enough to figure out that they could run the engine enough to cry for help. As for why the sextant wasn't found by a european, it may have been found by an islander, it may still be in the plane, along with a dry place for his charts, and maybe went with the plane. I don't know. And by the way, I really don't mean to sound like a smart alec, So I'll beg your pardon and leave it at that.

Brad
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #174 on: April 04, 2012, 04:37:00 PM »



I like Richie's idea of using the moving plane (10,000 lbs) to move a lifeboat to water.
We really need to look at Richie's idea more carefully to see if the airplane, pushed over the edge of the reef, could exert enough pull on a rope to move a life boat.
The empty weight was (in round numbers) 7,000 pounds meaning it consisted of 41.33 cubic feet of aluminum, (using the simplifying assumption that the plane was entirely aluminum, it wasn't, but this assumption won't make a significant difference in the conclusion.) The structure of the plane then displaced 41.33 cubic feet of sea water providing 2645 pounds of buoyancy so the weight of the plane, hanging on the end of the rope will only be 4,355 pounds. When calculating the force available in block and tackle systems, you always subtract 30% for each time the rope passes over a sheave due to frictional losses in the properly designed and lubricated axle inside the block (pulley). We can be certain that the frictional losses of a rope dragging along the surface of the reef and then over the edge will be greater, probably much greater, than 30% but using this number we must subtract 30% from the 4,355 leaving only a pull of 3,048 pounds (and actually a lot less) to be felt at the lifeboat end of the rope, a much lower number than Richie's 10,000 pounds of pull.
gl
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 04:52:59 PM by Gary LaPook »
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richie conroy

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #175 on: April 04, 2012, 05:26:19 PM »

Well fella's... I'll step away from reality for a few and take a swig of whatever it is you guy's are drinkin'. I will concede that maybe they found some still potable water after what? 8 years? Now granted, I don't have a Phd in nuclear engineering, Biometrics, or anything as lofty as you kind gentlemen but I do have some hands on experience in the water field.... in fact some 20 years worth. Do we know how the emergency water was treated back in the 20's? when the treating of water was in it's infancy? I submit, (with no documentation) that the water, if it was still there at all would not be fit to drink. I'd be willing to bet a Coke that if you sealed a glass of water right out of your tap at home, it would be unfit to drink within a week. The fresh water was supposed to be stored in wooden casks was it not? For those who have been to Niku, how long does wood survive unattended and unmaintained in that environment? I would hazzard a guess and say that the casks may very well have deteriorated to the point where they couldnt use them. They may have held some water, but not what we might think. As for using the plane to pull a lifeboat, we are talking about the Electra right? So we figured that there was a smaller boat missing, How small? and if I had gas enough in the plane to taxi around the island like a taxi, why not take it off and fly it to Never-Never land, the whole idea is ridiculous. On average it takes about 3 times the weight to pull something free thats resting on the ground. In other words, If I had a something that weighs 10 pounds in a static condition, it takes something like 30 pounds of pull to get it to move on wet sand. Use the airplane? I doubt that very seriously. As stated before, I think they may have tried to tie off on something in hopes of saving the plane, they salvaged what the could before the plane submerged and then took up residence on the island. I think the reason we haven't heard of anything Fred is because he just hasn't been found yet, Or he got mixed up with the bones of the Norwich City victims. COULD he have left Amelia and sailed off alone? Of course he could have, I just don't believe they did. I believe that they landed hard, they both were injured in the landing, they did what they could to bring help to themselves and failed. I believe the plane was damaged enough that it took them some time to recover enough to figure out that they could run the engine enough to cry for help. As for why the sextant wasn't found by a european, it may have been found by an islander, it may still be in the plane, along with a dry place for his charts, and maybe went with the plane. I don't know. And by the way, I really don't mean to sound like a smart alec, So I'll beg your pardon and leave it at that.

Brad

Brad

i have stated similar facts or hear say things before, we only know now through what has happened in the past 100 years etc an advances in technology, like the Earhart flight from Lae to howland was sound then, it's suicidal now,

but it weren't at the time i.e 1937

we went the moon in the 60s but yet its taken 3 years to build a capsule capable of going back   

even with today's technology

this is a discussion forum

to discuss possibility

don't mean it fact or fiction   

just to see if some things are possible or if there not

1 thing i know is between Ric, Marty, Gary, Bruce, Chris, Jeff, Harry, Heath, etc an all the others,

u will get a fact answer before u click refresh  :D
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Bruce Thomas

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #176 on: April 04, 2012, 06:03:01 PM »

They may have held some water, but not what we might think.
As a kid in the 50s, we lived on a Caribbean island and a drought hit.  The government brought in a barge carrying wooden casks filled with water.  I remember my parents loving that water ... the casks were reused barrels from a local rum distillery.   :D
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Brad Beeching

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #177 on: April 04, 2012, 07:32:51 PM »

Richie... Not to sound disrespectful... but what are you trying to say? That I need to provide references to show how the whole idea of using the aircraft for anything but what it was intended for is ludicrous. Forward thinking yes, but pure fantasy? All these ideas, while fun to banter back and forth, are Ok if we try to keep them as what they are.. a joke. I'll tell you the truth, I don't care if a person believes in the crash and sank, tried for the Marshals or whatever, at least all these theories are at least possible but this thread makes all who view it think we're all a bunch of crackpots. At least let us get back to discussing what the thread started out as, a discussion of a deserted island, the castaways and survival. I have been coming around here for a few years and have enjoyed the discussions, theories, and information passing back and forth. I have tried to make intelligent, well thought out comments when I had something to say, and have tried to keep my mouth shut when I couldn't. But this discussion has devolved into something that to me at least, is embarrassing. And I hope you all step back and really read what you are proposing. I think you may be enlightened. Now I have every intension to keep participating in this forum and share ideas that are grounded in reality and things that are possible. But if the Admin types think otherwise, then I go with no argument.
Brad Beeching
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #178 on: April 04, 2012, 07:49:06 PM »



but let me check first as i prob am wrong an they were quick release fuel not tanks  :-X
Could you do that, I'm curious because of our prior discussion about the mystery rods.

gl
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #179 on: April 04, 2012, 09:31:22 PM »


Brad
Take a pill and Chill
There is no reason for you to Flame on Richie.
By  its very nature this thread is one of speculation, noone knows what happened to AE/FN and we are just trying to think about what we might do if/when faced with the circunstances.
 In my opinion, if faced with the facts that no rescuers were coming, and noone was answering my radio calls, and I was facing a slow death, I would certainly try everything I could to  get one of those boats to water.  I would certainly try to use the biggest strongest tool of mechanical advantage I had, i.e. the plane and its engines.  Noone  said anything about Taxiing around the island.

The survivors camp was about 100 yards from the beach, the boats were prolly closer, and the high tide line closer still.  Not a  massive pull for a twin engined plane with 1200 HP.

Perhaps AE/FN didn't make themselves seen by Lambrecht when the "Searchers" flew over was because they had already left the island in a boat or a raft.
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