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Author Topic: Still from ROV video  (Read 1302709 times)

Gary LaPook

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #720 on: February 04, 2012, 12:27:54 PM »

or do these match up better

Did they carry parachutes? take a look at what Freds stood next to on the ground.
Those are two standard seat pack parachutes.

gl
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #721 on: February 04, 2012, 12:32:27 PM »

or do these match up better

Did they carry parachutes? take a look at what Freds stood next to on the ground.
Those are two standard seat pack parachutes.

gl
Doubt very much if they have survived but, you never can tell.
Jeff
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #722 on: February 04, 2012, 12:33:38 PM »

or do these match up better
What you labeled as "latch hooks" are actually props to hold the door open slightly in flight so that Noonan could use the driftmeter to take observation directly behind the plane which is necessary when the drift angle is small.

gl
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richie conroy

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #723 on: February 04, 2012, 01:16:31 PM »

have a guess at what is in white box, if u struggle to work it out take a couple steps away from computer screen an look again   :)
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #724 on: February 04, 2012, 01:25:24 PM »

have a guess at what is in white box, if u struggle to work it out take a couple steps away from computer screen an look again   :)

It's the remains of a radial engine Richie, can you recognise the remains of the cowling at the top + latches
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richie conroy

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #725 on: February 04, 2012, 01:33:31 PM »

yes an half of the propeller on floor in front of it  :)
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #726 on: February 04, 2012, 01:48:59 PM »

Bendix had a number of patents for RDF antenna pre-1940. This is the most likeliest one to have been used, patent application 1935. If you want me to point out every single component from the ROV footage I will have a go but, don't expect miracles. Thin strands of copper wire? Sealant?  resin? outer skin of soft metal? soldered joins? The stuff most likely to survive salt water corrosion after being exposed during the shredding on a coral reef and the slide down a volcanic outcrop to 300 metres are interior construction parts made from alloy, these would be the last to be exposed to salt water. That said, we still don't know the exact Bendix antenna used or the PFM box that goes with it, there is still some dispute as to which one was on board at Lae, see cockpit photo TIGHAR website. Here’s a couple of links. The first is the most likely suspect and the second is all Bendix RDF antenna.

http://www.google.co.uk/patents?id=82hpAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA2&dq=Bendix+shielded+wire+loop+antenna&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_pctT46-OcGz8QP4-5GZDw&sqi=2&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Bendix%20shielded%20wire%20loop%20antenna&f=false

http://www.google.co.uk/#pq=bendix+rdf+loop+antenna&hl=en&cp=33&gs_id=8h&xhr=t&q=Bendix+shielded+wire+loop+antenna&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&prmdo=1&tbm=pts&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=Bendix+shielded+wire+loop+antenna&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=9544add527a35883&biw=1600&bih=795
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richie conroy

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #727 on: February 04, 2012, 02:01:48 PM »

finally found a place for this funnel shaped object in pic it has annoyed me for weeks  :)
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #728 on: February 04, 2012, 02:09:52 PM »

Gary,  I don't think we can write off the RDF just yet. What type(s) of wire were used for the coils and the inner loop? Seems to me that it would probably have been a thinner guage of wire to have been wrapped inside of the loop. Two dissimilar metals in a salt water environment is the perfect situation for a galvanic reaction which, I would think, be more than capable of dissolving a thin wire over the course of 75 years of submersion. I might be wrong, but I don't recall the plane being equipped with any sacrificial zincs. Not surprising as it was never intended to be immersed in salt water. I know that I've needed to change the zincs on my boats a couple of times and they've never spent 75 years in the water.  LTM- John
Copper wire is used to make the coils inside the anti-static shield. All the coils were made out of the same wire so why are there two coils left? They should all be left or they should all be gone. And where is the anti-static shield which was made out of metal. The RDF antenna  should look like the one in this picture tht was posted later.


gl

Discovery of USS Perch (SS-176)

The Java Sea Reveals a Wartime Secret

In early March of 1942, less than three months into the War in the Pacific, the submarine USS Perch (SS-176) was conducting her second war patrol in the hostile waters of the Java Sea.

After a series of battles against multiple units of the Japanese Imperial Navy, during which Perch was severely damaged and rendered unable to dive safely or to defend herself, commanding officer David Hurt ordered his vessel abandoned.  He sent his vessel to the bottom with an open conning tower hatch in order to avoid its capture.  The entire crew was picked up by the Japanese and sent to Prisoner of War camps, where six members of the Perch crew died as POWs, but the remaining 53 did manage to survive and were liberated at the War's end.

Over sixty years later, an international team of divers and photographers were on a regular dive charter in the waters north of Surabaya City, Java when the vessel's sonar revealed a long slender object on the sea floor that merited investigation.  Vidar Skoglie and dive team members Kevin Denlay, Dieter Kops, Mike Gadd, and Craig Challen soon found a wreck at a depth of approximately 190 feet.  Although the divers immediately knew that the wreck was a submarine, they were unsure of its identity until they discovered a plaque on its conning tower.  Even under a layer of more than a half-century of marine growth, the large lettering of the plaque could be read: USS PERCH SUBMARINE.

Photographer Kevin Denlay contacted the Naval Historical Center in Washington, D.C., and the USS Bowfin Submarine Museum, Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, in early December of last year and shared the news of the team's discovery.  He provided the museum with still photographs and a DVD of the dive which clearly reveal, despite low visibility conditions, evidence of the identity and final resting place of the vessel.

When Perch survivor Robert Lents was contacted in his Arkansas home, he expressed great interest in the discovery.  He especially would like to see what his boat looks like after all these years.  Not only that, he added, "I left $35 in my locker on the boat.  It's probably still there."  The wreck is protected under U.S. and International laws, so Bob's savings and as well his battling submarine lie at the bottom of the Java Sea, undisturbed.
Scuttled intact, appart from a few patched up shell holes and resting gracefully on the flat bottom of the Java Sea, war memorial.
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #729 on: February 04, 2012, 03:55:00 PM »

Somewhere between the first pic and the fixture in the second pic the wire/cable changes from being wire/cable to a solid lump of black metal.
Pic one:
Blue: solid lump of metal
Yellow: 2? holes
Green: Loop at end
Red: small odd circle/wheel/pulley? surrounded by trashed alloy

Pic 2:
Blue circle: The fixture

I'll see if I can find the join, that might give us a better idea of what the wire/cable used to do
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #730 on: February 04, 2012, 04:02:14 PM »

Bendix had a number of patents for RDF antenna pre-1940. This is the most likeliest one to have been used, patent application 1935. If you want me to point out every single component from the ROV footage I will have a go but, don't expect miracles. Thin strands of copper wire? Sealant?  resin? outer skin of soft metal? soldered joins? The stuff most likely to survive salt water corrosion after being exposed during the shredding on a coral reef and the slide down a volcanic outcrop to 300 metres are interior construction parts made from alloy, these would be the last to be exposed to salt water. That said, we still don't know the exact Bendix antenna used or the PFM box that goes with it, there is still some dispute as to which one was on board at Lae, see cockpit photo TIGHAR website. Here’s a couple of links. The first is the most likely suspect and the second is all Bendix RDF antenna.

http://www.google.co.uk/patents?id=82hpAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA2&dq=Bendix+shielded+wire+loop+antenna&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_pctT46-OcGz8QP4-5GZDw&sqi=2&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Bendix%20shielded%20wire%20loop%20antenna&f=false

http://www.google.co.uk/#pq=bendix+rdf+loop+antenna&hl=en&cp=33&gs_id=8h&xhr=t&q=Bendix+shielded+wire+loop+antenna&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&prmdo=1&tbm=pts&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=Bendix+shielded+wire+loop+antenna&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=9544add527a35883&biw=1600&bih=795
The first is NOT the most likely suspect   since it a patent for a fixed, non-rotatable, not an RDF, antenna mounted under the cowling ring surrounding the engine.

I am attaching the most likely patent description and you will see that it calls for multiple turns of wire in the antenna, (just like I said) not just two as shown in the ROV picture. And what became of the spacers that the antenna coils were threaded through to maintain their spacing? Not to mention, what happened to the metal shield?

I am also attaching a description of the type of RDF mounted in the plane, the MN-5.


gl
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 04:36:31 PM by Gary LaPook »
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #731 on: February 05, 2012, 04:11:00 AM »

I think we've been taken for suckers Re: the wire/rope/cable being vee shaped or, branching off from one wire/rope/cable into two/wire/rope/cable. If you look at this still the wire/rope/cable on the right continues its downard path hugging the 'coral outcrop' outline as it does so. But the one on the left comes out from underneath the 'coral outcrop'?
That would exclude the vee tail antenna.
What about the Chinese/Korean fishermen? Were they fishing here before whatever it is slid down the reef slope? or did they get unlucky recently and it slid down ontop of their line as they were fishing? What sort of fishing would they have been doing for that to happen? Not long lining for sure, the main cable is held afloat on the surface with a line of floats spaced at regular intervals with the weaker breaking strain lines attached to the main. So for a long line to be trapped underneath the 'coral outcrop' the 'coral outcrop' would have to have fallen onto it at the surface. Trawling? Could be but still, how did it get underneath the 'coral outcrop' I have yet to find anything to do with nets/chains etc.. Trawling along a coral reef would probably guarantee that you lose your net anyway.
So it looks like two different wire/rope/cable. The one on the right we pick up above the door shaped 'coral outcrop' and it goes down hugging the outline of the 'coral outcrop' before I lose it. The wire/rope/cable on the left suddenly appears just below the door shaped 'coral outcrop' but, we can follow it down to its end, the end with the black metal fixture that has a loop in it and one or possibly two holes in it.
More on the 'coral outcrop' that the wire/rope/cable on the right seems to like hugging later.

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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #732 on: February 05, 2012, 06:34:02 AM »

JEFF------Stop it!!! no dummies, no suckers, no talk like that!. Yep the wire , rope , cable, whatever was a longshot to possibly be from the Electra, but think of it as a hightway that led you to other discoveries. I would think that the Govt. of Kiribati 'may'have records of vessels entering their waters, especially fishing around pristine reefs. Certainly they would want to know, especially if a ship were to run aground, hit a submerged object and dump fuel. I guess Ric and Co would know all about the interworkings of having a ship in someone else's territorial waters. I dont.
IF it would be possible to find out if that information exsists, then it can be determined if it may be fishing cable, towed net cable, or something else. At any rate, the work you have done has opened the eyes of many people to the mystery. Stay with it. Your work will be rewarded with an amazing discovery. No, I'm not clarivoyant-----just very analytical. Your work points to definately aircraft wreckage on the reef at Nikumaroro----and until someone PROVES it isn't NR16020, I think it is. Call me crazy---but youre on it.
Tom
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John Joseph Barrett

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #733 on: February 05, 2012, 08:00:26 AM »

Tom,  I don't think that Jeff is saying that the wire/rope/cable isn't from the Electra. More that it isn't from the V-antenna. I've been surfing the web looking for a schematic for the wiring harness and overall type of wiring used in the Electra to see what I could find. So far, nothing. My first house was built in 1928 and the wonderful wiring that was in it was all cloth and rubber wrapped copper wire contained within a metal outer conduit which protected the wires and served as a ground. The rubber didn't age well and became very brittle. I ended up rewiring the entire house. My point is, did aircraft manufacturers in the 1930's run the wiring through a similar type of flexible metal conduit? It would protect the wiring quite nicely as well as offer a ground (earth, for our friends on the eastern shore of the pond) and, more importantly, might look very much like a rope whil laying on the bottom of a coral reef. How many circuits would the aircraft have needed? Obviously the instrument panel, radio gear, interior lighting would require electricity. Then the flap motors, landing gear, etc. Lastly the engines would require starter circuits, generator circuits, ignition, etc. How much wiring was there and what would remain of it?  Does anyone have a schematic?  LTM- John
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #734 on: February 05, 2012, 08:03:13 AM »

JEFF------Stop it!!! no dummies, no suckers, no talk like that!. Yep the wire , rope , cable, whatever was a longshot to possibly be from the Electra, but think of it as a hightway that led you to other discoveries. I would think that the Govt. of Kiribati 'may'have records of vessels entering their waters, especially fishing around pristine reefs. Certainly they would want to know, especially if a ship were to run aground, hit a submerged object and dump fuel. I guess Ric and Co would know all about the interworkings of having a ship in someone else's territorial waters. I dont.
IF it would be possible to find out if that information exsists, then it can be determined if it may be fishing cable, towed net cable, or something else. At any rate, the work you have done has opened the eyes of many people to the mystery. Stay with it. Your work will be rewarded with an amazing discovery. No, I'm not clarivoyant-----just very analytical. Your work points to definately aircraft wreckage on the reef at Nikumaroro----and until someone PROVES it isn't NR16020, I think it is. Call me crazy---but youre on it.
Tom
The point I was trying to make Tom was, how did it get underneath the wreckage, whatever it is. It's aircraft wreckage for sure but, which aircraft? I'm currently studying DC3 models. We called them Dakotas over here. I know there isn't any recorded losses of them in this area but, we have to cover all possibilities. Military transport?
It's hard to get decent structural photos of Electra but, easier with the DC3.
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