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Author Topic: Still from ROV video  (Read 1088112 times)

Malcolm McKay

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1080 on: April 21, 2012, 09:58:42 PM »


one thing is for sure, there is stuff on the reef face that are not natural coral

so we shud know either way by mid july  :)

Yep, one bit of wire.
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richie conroy

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1081 on: April 21, 2012, 10:27:57 PM »


one thing is for sure, there is stuff on the reef face that are not natural coral

so we shud know either way by mid july  :)

Yep, one bit of wire.

hopefully your right

 because that would mean the Electra is down the bottom, intact waiting to be found

 :) 


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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1082 on: April 22, 2012, 02:02:59 AM »

And some 'coral', see posting 1138
 ;)
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« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 02:05:03 AM by Jeff Victor Hayden »
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1083 on: April 22, 2012, 02:28:47 AM »


 because that would mean the Electra is down the bottom, intact waiting to be found

 :)

I must admit that I have never been convinced that if the Electra had landed on the outer reef at Nikumaroro it would be now in small bits. The most likely thing to have happened is that if it had landed on the reef and lost an u/c leg it would simply have been picked up by the tide and washed out off the reef with minor structural damage and then slid down the steep outer reef slope until it either lodged somewhere or kept going to the bottom. Either way it would be out of harms way from wave action on the reef. Using the Norwich City as some sort of surrogate destruction model is deceptive. The Norwich City was very big heavy chunk of iron that relied on the sea when it was afloat to support its structure, once it part grounded on the reef, the hull was no longer evenly supported and it simply broke up as the waves lifted the floating portion setting up stresses which caused that to break from the part that was wedged on the reef. Rather like the Titanic broke into two parts once the forward 2/3rds of it went under water. With 2/3rds of the flotation support gone the remaining 1/3rd which was still floating couldn't support the weight. Put simply, if you were a giant and picked up the Norwich City by the stern it would snap off in your hand.

Now the Electra is a different type of structure. Like all aircraft of that form it is the wing centre section running out past the engines which provide the basic unit around which the fuselage, outer wing sections and tail are attached. This is very lightweight and rigid structure which has its strength further enhanced by having a stressed skin construction which is to say that the strength provided by the main centre section is reinforced by the aircraft skin which is rivetted to a framework extending from the centre section. As a structure it is supported in the air by the wings and on the ground it is supported by the undercarriage which is attached to the centre section and to the rear fuselage which is supported both by the centre section and the stressed skin. Unlike the Norwich City the Electra's structure is soundly supported and strong whether in flight or just sitting on the ground. The Norwich City is only a sound structure if it is afloat or in a dry dock with carefully placed frames to support all of the hull. If you were a giant and picked up the Electra by the tail nothing would break off because the structure itself is capable of supporting the unsupported parts - otherwise the fuselage would break in half once it sat on its undercarriage. If you attached wheels to the front and rear of the Norwich City and attempted to sit it on them it would promptly break its back.

So if the landing on the reef was relatively normal it would survive in one piece, then be washed off with minimal damage and quickly sink nose first due to engine weight, again incurring minimal damage like loss of the undercarriage and aerials, below the zone on the slope where waves could batter it against the reef and cause more damage, with corrosion being the only enemy. I'm only offering a hypothesis here, I remain unsold on the reef landing because as with all the other theories it is yet to be demonstrated with hard evidence. But if it is there I would expect it to be relatively intact excluding the corrosive action of the sea water.
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richie conroy

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1084 on: April 22, 2012, 03:59:01 AM »

u have highlighted good points Malcolm 

as to why the Electra would be in 1 piece  with normal landing on reef and i Respect ur view on it..

my view is that given the amount of time the plane wreckage was visible up to 1941 (i think)

an the aircraft skin that has been recovered on the island, i honestly don't think we will find an intact Electra

simply because the structure must have been under allot of pressure to snap the landing gear 

swaying back an fourth

it is possible due to it not being found on a ledge in shallower water, that wen it did eventually leave the reef surface it must have floated out far enough to not get caught by the reef face to a depth of over 300 meters

an that's why we are only finding bit's that resemble airplane parts

they may not be parts of aircraft

we maybe just seeing what we want or wish to see

until proved wrong i think highlighting objects for next dive is the only way we can help... 
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1085 on: April 22, 2012, 07:49:15 AM »

u have highlighted good points Malcolm 

as to why the Electra would be in 1 piece  with normal landing on reef and i Respect ur view on it..

my view is that given the amount of time the plane wreckage was visible up to 1941 (i think)

an the aircraft skin that has been recovered on the island, i honestly don't think we will find an intact Electra

simply because the structure must have been under allot of pressure to snap the landing gear 

swaying back an fourth

it is possible due to it not being found on a ledge in shallower water, that wen it did eventually leave the reef surface it must have floated out far enough to not get caught by the reef face to a depth of over 300 meters

an that's why we are only finding bit's that resemble airplane parts

they may not be parts of aircraft

we maybe just seeing what we want or wish to see

until proved wrong i think highlighting objects for next dive is the only way we can help...

Depends on a couple of things. When Earhart ground looped the Electra the lateral stress snapped the legs which necessitated it being rebuilt, so wave action on the reef may have simply put pressure on the attachments in the same way. Then it would simply float out with the tide and sink.

The Electra had a very light but strong structure, so as I suggested it would have just been half floated and half dragged over the edge where gravity would have done the rest. This strong and light structure would have ameliorated contact damage as it sank down the outer edge of the reef - some bits would have come off and it might have got a bit dented but otherwise just falling off the reef would not result in catastrophic damage if it was in one piece to begin with. We're not talking about the catastrophic damage that would have occurred if it had actually crashed on the reef at speed.

I am not convinced about the veracity of the claim that there was aircraft wreckage in view in 1941 - given the concern over the identity of the skeleton as being Earhart's in 1940 which would have been hard to keep from the locals, I wonder if there is some gossip developing amongst the natives which then when this shiny light coloured metal is seen is tied into the story and becomes part of an aeroplane. The Norwich Citymay well have had items in it that were composed of another light coloured metal like galvanized iron tanks or piping which would resist corrosion in the reef water much better than aluminium. Also the descriptions go from bright and shiny to rusty, so is that the zinc coating wearing off to expose the underlying iron? - but aluminium of any kind if it is exposed to sea water near the surface would oxidize very quickly to a white chalky appearance then pretty much stay that way until it corrodes away. It doesn't rust as does iron or steel, so that is a story is open to another interpretation.   

The main issue for preservation is depth, The deeper the water the less oxygen, and the less oxygen the less oxidization - the reef shelves away quite steeply so unless it hung up on the reef at a shallow depth it more than likely just kept sliding down a great deal further. We do know from preserved examples that aircraft from WW2 have remained pretty much intact except for the damage that put them in the water in the first place the deeper they are submerged. In fact the difficulty with recovering them is to stop the rapid oxidization that occurs when they come into contact with the atmosphere. So again purely a hypothesis but the Electra, if it is in the ocean around Nikumaroro, might not be in fragments.   
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 07:55:20 AM by Malcolm McKay »
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richie conroy

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1086 on: April 22, 2012, 10:43:38 AM »

Jeff

any idea's on what this object could be ?

look in bottom left corner at the object that looks like a brick pattern ?
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Brad Beeching

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1087 on: April 22, 2012, 12:33:03 PM »

Honestly Richie, As it passes near the rope the first time I saw it, I had the impression that there was something on the video just on the edge of the light from the ROV. But aside from the fact that there is not a way to accurately guage scale, I have seen nothing that resembles anything but chunks of coral rubble. As much as I want to see something, I've just been at a loss to identify anything with any certainty. I'm not an expert and will be in line to shake your hand if any of the lines you and others have drawn incompass anything manmade let alone having to do with an airplane. With your talent maybe you can identify something in the shoreline photo from the overflight? Wouldn't it be something to be able to see people waving? Then again, maybe it would be pretty horrible to see people waving in that photo...

Brad
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1088 on: April 22, 2012, 01:07:33 PM »

Jumping the gun a bit there Malcolm. While it would be a nice reward for it to be the Electra at the moment it only resembles aircraft wreckage (to some). If it turns out not to be the Electra then, progress has been made, some of the circumstantial evidence can be said to have proved true (aircraft wreckage on reef the Islanders witnessed), other circumstantial evidence not (the Electra landing gear photo, Nessie).
If nothing at all is found then again, progress has been made in the process of elimination. There are other valid theories as I'm sure you are well aware of. The object of the search for AE and FN + plane is to find it.
I have no particular favourite theory, there are too many but, there are two frontrunners and, this is one of them. As long as nobody gets injured or worse then, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter as long as the outcome is successful, find that plane. ;)
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richie conroy

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1089 on: April 22, 2012, 03:30:04 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=ULBmc8f2U4DLI&feature=player_detailpage&v=Bmc8f2U4DLI

gives a idea how big objects are when Rov is close to object
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1090 on: April 22, 2012, 06:52:23 PM »

Jumping the gun a bit there Malcolm.

Jumping what gun? I thought the whole text of my post was that I am doubtful about the whole hypothesis. My only intent was to clarify what I think is the mistaken assumption that the Electra if it was off the reef in deep water would be in small fragments.
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1091 on: April 23, 2012, 07:35:59 AM »

Malcolm---not to toss out Richie & jeffs great work---But I would like to see an INTACT Electra, sitting on the bottom in 3400 feet of water in pristine condition--other than the landing gear. it is 'possible', that the tides and current took the electra off the reef, and it floated for several hundred yards, filling with water, before sinking. Possible? probably not, but until the submersibles go down there, were are all theorizing.
Tom
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Monty Fowler

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1092 on: April 23, 2012, 11:25:49 AM »

Tom makes a good point, until we find the actual pieces - or piece - of our favorite Electra, it's just a bunch of WAGs. But it keeps some of us up late nights.  ;D

LTM,

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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1093 on: April 24, 2012, 09:25:58 AM »

Jumping the gun a bit there Malcolm.

Jumping what gun? I thought the whole text of my post was that I am doubtful about the whole hypothesis. My only intent was to clarify what I think is the mistaken assumption that the Electra if it was off the reef in deep water would be in small fragments.

1. Jumping the gun in respect of naming i.e. Electra
2. Mistaken assumption to be investigated soon, that's why we're here
3. Here be dragons
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #1094 on: April 24, 2012, 10:17:29 AM »

Lumps of coral?

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