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Author Topic: Still from ROV video  (Read 1132805 times)

Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #300 on: January 20, 2012, 01:08:30 PM »


Of course there is also the straight lined thing in the center that looks like a pencil, pen?
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #301 on: January 20, 2012, 02:08:46 PM »

Rubber tires don't deteriorate or dissolve in sea water.  They may outlast the metal parts  - rims, suspension, brakes, etc.

Tires are a bit of a nuisance in sea water, they just won't stay put, dissolve or support marine life...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-02-17-florida-reef_x.htm
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JNev

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #302 on: January 20, 2012, 02:24:34 PM »

Rubber tires don't deteriorate or dissolve in sea water.  They may outlast the metal parts  - rims, suspension, brakes, etc.

Tires are a bit of a nuisance in sea water, they just won't stay put, dissolve or support marine life...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-02-17-florida-reef_x.htm

Which takes me further to the point of what I was about to post...

This is all very interesting, but according to Global Coral Reef Alliance, "Coral larvae, which are millimeter-sized freely-swimming baby corals, will only settle and grow on clean limestone rock. This is why conventional artificial reefs made of tires or concrete rarely exhibit hard coral growth."

From that it seems that surfaces like aircraft structure and rubber tires don't promote 'clever coral' growth the way that's been suggested here for all these wonderful shapes that suggest all manner of aircraft objects.  I guess 'sediment' is a likelihood, but 'rock growth' in such amounts seems very odd - I can't see these 'parts' becoming so fossil-like in 75 years somehow.

Have a look at some known underwater WWII-era wrecks in a 'coral' environment to get an idea - while there is sediment and some growth of various types common to reefs, the basic airplane 'stuff' is clearly apparent.

This really leaves me stuggling with all these wonderful 'finds' here, but to each his own.

LTM -
- Jeff Neville

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« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 02:26:16 PM by Jeff Neville »
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #303 on: January 20, 2012, 03:50:25 PM »

Rubber tires don't deteriorate or dissolve in sea water.  They may outlast the metal parts  - rims, suspension, brakes, etc.

Tires are a bit of a nuisance in sea water, they just won't stay put, dissolve or support marine life...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-02-17-florida-reef_x.htm

Which takes me further to the point of what I was about to post...

This is all very interesting, but according to Global Coral Reef Alliance, "Coral larvae, which are millimeter-sized freely-swimming baby corals, will only settle and grow on clean limestone rock. This is why conventional artificial reefs made of tires or concrete rarely exhibit hard coral growth."

From that it seems that surfaces like aircraft structure and rubber tires don't promote 'clever coral' growth the way that's been suggested here for all these wonderful shapes that suggest all manner of aircraft objects.  I guess 'sediment' is a likelihood, but 'rock growth' in such amounts seems very odd - I can't see these 'parts' becoming so fossil-like in 75 years somehow.

Have a look at some known underwater WWII-era wrecks in a 'coral' environment to get an idea - while there is sediment and some growth of various types common to reefs, the basic airplane 'stuff' is clearly apparent.

This really leaves me stuggling with all these wonderful 'finds' here, but to each his own.

LTM -

It's definately a grey area Jeff but, like I have said on numerous ocassions the chances of finding a bit bigger than the size of a dinner plate are very slim. You have seen what the conditions on the reef did to the SS Norwich City and that was built like a brick shit house. Anything on an airframe that is held in place by clips, hinges, brackets etc... will be off first, riveted ones later. Big hefty engineered masterpieces like engines, undercarriage, main central spars will last a bit longer, they were designed to take punishment.
The gradient and depth of the reef slope at Niku is something else to take into account. Splendid pictures of majestic aircraft wrecks lying gracefully on the sea bed look amazing I agree but, that's not the case at Niku I'm afraid, it's a meat grinder and, when it's ground you up, down you go.
The wrecks of Truk lagoon look amazing after all these years but, it's a peaceful, tranquil location in comparison to Niku.
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #304 on: January 20, 2012, 04:58:04 PM »

I'm not trying to discourage you, Jeff, but I think objectivity left with Elvis somewhere in all this...

I wasn't talking about whether the possible 'dinner plate' sized stuff is crucial so much as the 'look at that clever coral' long-shot.  The point is 'coral isn't that clever'.  I don't see 'tailwheel' - I see 'rock' - tires don't accrete that well - which is the point of the nice, tidy little wrecks I directed the reader to - not about 'size', but 'state'.

Yes, there sat N.C. in the surf line all these years, first compromised by an intense fire, then constantly bashed, bent, fatigued, corroded and eroded by high-energy surf, winds and free salt air.  I don't doubt that many of the same forces acted on NR16020 for some period of time, but as to 'size', if major chunks sank, they have been largely free from the more destructive forces of surf near or at the surface.  Whatever 'big chunks' there may be may also be hopelessly tangled or smothered by N.C. chunks, too.  I don't discount or argue the 'size' so much therefore, I DO have a problem with 'look, there's a TAILWHEEL!'  Frankly, I doubt NR16020 would succomb in such tidy parts, for one thing, and again - the 'clever coral' is an unfounded assumption in my opinion.

So, as I said - 'to each his own' - 'mine' is just a bit different from 'yours', sh-- brickhouses and all... ;)

AND I wish you luck.  IF you 'find' a chunk, you're going to have to be convincing enough to get someone to plunk down big resources to go chase it down to validate it, so you really need to be critical and convincing in your work, IMHO.  I hope you DO spot the grail - I just haven't seen anything yet, after all, that suggests it.

LTM -
Jeff, all valid points and I'm not disputing that. The descriptions are, well, just descriptions, what else to call them? They RESEMBLE but, are not indisputable evidence of. The ROV video is all I have to go on and I'll do what I can with it so, thanks for your encouragement, its appreciated. I GURANTEE there isn't a 'there it is' part in the video but, little bits and pieces all add up. Most of, if not all the stuff down there is covered in silt, residue etc... except of course the 'rope/wire'. That indicates two things, it either moves around on a regular basis or, it's just arrived i.e. it hasn't been there for a long period of time.
Jeff
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #305 on: January 20, 2012, 05:15:47 PM »

Just to give you some idea as to the difficulties facing trying to make sense out the ROV video. In this shot the ROV prop wash has almost cleared the silt from what lies beneath. Inside the black box, the lighter areas have been cleared,but there is still an awful lot of silt on it, it's a shiny metal sheet with straight edges, odd shaped holes and very thin edges. The clouds of silt can be seen on the left of the still picture. The picture has not been enhanced yet.
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« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 05:18:20 PM by Jeff Victor Hayden »
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #306 on: January 20, 2012, 06:03:52 PM »

I'm not trying to discourage you, Jeff, but I think objectivity left with Elvis somewhere in all this...

I wasn't talking about whether the possible 'dinner plate' sized stuff is crucial so much as the 'look at that clever coral' long-shot.  The point is 'coral isn't that clever'.  I don't see 'tailwheel' - I see 'rock' - tires don't accrete that well - which is the point of the nice, tidy little wrecks I directed the reader to - not about 'size', but 'state'.

Yes, there sat N.C. in the surf line all these years, first compromised by an intense fire, then constantly bashed, bent, fatigued, corroded and eroded by high-energy surf, winds and free salt air.  I don't doubt that many of the same forces acted on NR16020 for some period of time, but as to 'size', if major chunks sank, they have been largely free from the more destructive forces of surf near or at the surface.  Whatever 'big chunks' there may be may also be hopelessly tangled or smothered by N.C. chunks, too.  I don't discount or argue the 'size' so much therefore, I DO have a problem with 'look, there's a TAILWHEEL!'  Frankly, I doubt NR16020 would succomb in such tidy parts, for one thing, and again - the 'clever coral' is an unfounded assumption in my opinion.

So, as I said - 'to each his own' - 'mine' is just a bit different from 'yours', sh-- brickhouses and all... ;)

AND I wish you luck.  IF you 'find' a chunk, you're going to have to be convincing enough to get someone to plunk down big resources to go chase it down to validate it, so you really need to be critical and convincing in your work, IMHO.  I hope you DO spot the grail - I just haven't seen anything yet, after all, that suggests it.

LTM -

I have to agree with Jeff Neville. A compelling argument shown in the TIGHAR photos where coral doesn't adhere to aluminum. Regardless of object size.

While I too look hard at each of these stills and hope you are right, it's going to take convincing Ric and his advisory team that dollars should be spent of searching for any of these items.

I believe that the bigger targets offer a better chance of being found and recovered.

It would be good, IMHO, if the symposium had a speaker knowledgeable in ROV operations and data interpretation, to give a presentation on the intricacies of this kind of work.  Perhaps using some of the existing video that is being interpreted here. 

But, as Jeff N said, don't lose the enthusiasm. You've certainly got some good ideas floating around there.
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #307 on: January 20, 2012, 06:26:53 PM »

I'm not trying to discourage you, Jeff, but I think objectivity left with Elvis somewhere in all this...

I wasn't talking about whether the possible 'dinner plate' sized stuff is crucial so much as the 'look at that clever coral' long-shot.  The point is 'coral isn't that clever'.  I don't see 'tailwheel' - I see 'rock' - tires don't accrete that well - which is the point of the nice, tidy little wrecks I directed the reader to - not about 'size', but 'state'.

Yes, there sat N.C. in the surf line all these years, first compromised by an intense fire, then constantly bashed, bent, fatigued, corroded and eroded by high-energy surf, winds and free salt air.  I don't doubt that many of the same forces acted on NR16020 for some period of time, but as to 'size', if major chunks sank, they have been largely free from the more destructive forces of surf near or at the surface.  Whatever 'big chunks' there may be may also be hopelessly tangled or smothered by N.C. chunks, too.  I don't discount or argue the 'size' so much therefore, I DO have a problem with 'look, there's a TAILWHEEL!'  Frankly, I doubt NR16020 would succomb in such tidy parts, for one thing, and again - the 'clever coral' is an unfounded assumption in my opinion.

So, as I said - 'to each his own' - 'mine' is just a bit different from 'yours', sh-- brickhouses and all... ;)

AND I wish you luck.  IF you 'find' a chunk, you're going to have to be convincing enough to get someone to plunk down big resources to go chase it down to validate it, so you really need to be critical and convincing in your work, IMHO.  I hope you DO spot the grail - I just haven't seen anything yet, after all, that suggests it.

LTM -

I have to agree with Jeff Neville. A compelling argument shown in the TIGHAR photos where coral doesn't adhere to aluminum. Regardless of object size.

While I too look hard at each of these stills and hope you are right, it's going to take convincing Ric and his advisory team that dollars should be spent of searching for any of these items.

I believe that the bigger targets offer a better chance of being found and recovered.

It would be good, IMHO, if the symposium had a speaker knowledgeable in ROV operations and data interpretation, to give a presentation on the intricacies of this kind of work.  Perhaps using some of the existing video that is being interpreted here. 

But, as Jeff N said, don't lose the enthusiasm. You've certainly got some good ideas floating around there.

Thanks Irv, I'll stick with it :)
I am convinced there is aircraft wreckage here. I have seen enough but, as Marty said early on in the post, it doesn't mean it's the Electra. I agree on that point fully. Shame the coordinates were not recorded :(
Still, they looked where they thought it should be and... oh well, only history will tell.

jeff
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richie conroy

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #308 on: January 20, 2012, 07:06:24 PM »

if anythink we are ruling out objects, that could appear on the next rov dive video in the future  which makes life easier...

also i think tighar would even admit, that when they first seen these images they must of thought wow, but then been left disappointed...

also maybe new opinions on things, that tighar have'nt noticed maybe ov help 

likes ov these pics

notice they are similar but probably not the same thing





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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #309 on: January 20, 2012, 07:15:42 PM »

I agree with ALL of you. The pros and cons of this exercise have given all of us things to look at, and contemplate. I think we all want to believe that the Electra is there. I certainly do. In fact, there's always the possibility the the ROV 'just missed' an engine, or a prop, or such 'holy grail' items. Like Ric and others have said, its a big reef, and deep, and the parts we are 'seeing' are pretty small in comparison.
I encourage Jeff and others to continue their specialized search----the holy grail may be around the corner. And If you find it, beyond any reasonable doubt, the $$$$$$$$ will come.
Tom
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #310 on: January 20, 2012, 10:23:03 PM »


Richie
WOW  That certainly looks like an RDF Loop antenna and I'd bet that the one on the Electra had a serial number on it and the base also.  A shame that the ROV didn't have a capability to grasp onto it and bring it up.  Hopefully it's location can be determined from ROV time stamp and Log. and it can be retrieved on the next ROV trip.

Keep up the good work.
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #311 on: January 21, 2012, 01:01:12 AM »

i have attached a better image of wheel object cud deffo be a wheel  :)
Paging doctor Rorschach, paging doctor Rorschach, is doctor Rorschach in the house?

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John Joseph Barrett

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #312 on: January 21, 2012, 06:50:00 AM »

Thanks for the last post, Gary. I needed a good chuckle. It's not that the objects identified on this thread aren't what they might be being identified as, but more so that most of us would love to see something identifiable in the pictures. Attached (hopefully) are two pictures taken on the wreck of the USS Aeolus, reefed in 1988 off of North Carolina. One shows a bundle of rope that I presume went down with the ship as there is a compartment that is pretty much full of the stuff and I did not see any trawl nets or other lines snagging the wreck. The other is a photo to show the corrosive effects of salt water submersion on a steel ship with a hole corroded through the decking and an example of marine life taking hold. I did not have any handy to show the utter destruction of the ship due to hurricanes. The ship lies at 110 feet and has broken into three large pieces with obvious tears in steel plating. I cannot imagine AE's plane remaining anywhere near as recognizable after being down for much longer and having passed through a surf zone along the reef before sliding into the deep. I do believe that is where the plane is. I just don't think we're going to be able to identify it without bringing something up. My $.02.   LTM-  John
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John Joseph Barrett

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #313 on: January 21, 2012, 07:23:48 AM »

FWIW Richie,  That could be the direction finder hoop in the photo. It could even be the cable leading out from it toward the left. It even looks like it comes out from the right location if it is indeed the hoop. Until there is a more definitive photo taken directly of it, and/or the object is retrieved, we just can't know. I do like the photos and the efforts gone into researching the video and posting them. I just wish we could go down there, grab whatever it is, bring it up and find the proof. LTM- John
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Chris Johnson

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Re: Still from ROV video
« Reply #314 on: January 21, 2012, 07:49:11 AM »

i have attached a better image of wheel object cud deffo be a wheel  :)
Paging doctor Rorschach, paging doctor Rorschach, is doctor Rorschach in the house?

gl

You just kill me, Gary  :D

Saw the 'butterfly' too, didn't you... ;)

LTM -

For those not in the know Doctor Rorschach

And it was me who saw the pigs head :)
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