Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6   Go Down

Author Topic: Airworthiness Certificate(s); fuel capacity  (Read 87454 times)

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Airworthiness Certificate(s); fuel capacity
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2011, 09:52:56 PM »

But the field was an unpaved, untested airfield on a very small island. AE knew there were no facilities there other than what Itasca would have. If she believed 100 octane would give her take off a boost, from a brand new unpaved runway that no aircraft had ever landed on or taken off from, then wouldn't she want to save the 100 octane for that takeoff?  Use all the runway at Lae with her regular fuel, believing she had ample fuel and reserve to make it to Howland. This, of course, is all theory as she never made it to Howland or radioed to say what she was planning.  I ask the pilots out there....  If you were doing this trip, and using the knowledge of 1937, what would you do? Could you, or would you, trust that the Howland airfield was built as advertised?
Yes, based on all the high level government support for the mission including that from the White House and Earhart's personal friendship with Elanor Roosevelt.

gl
Logged

Irvine John Donald

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 597
Re: Airworthiness Certificate(s); fuel capacity
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2011, 10:31:03 PM »

Well Gary, you seem to have an answer for everything. AE an FN must have landed on Howland. Apparently any idea put forth that suggests otherwise is clearly wrong based on your evidence. In all honesty I know you don't believe that but as I said in this forum before "something didn't go as planned because they didn't get there.". Wonder what it was. Hmm.
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
Logged

Jeff Scott

  • T2
  • **
  • Posts: 93
Re: Airworthiness Certificate(s); fuel capacity
« Reply #47 on: December 24, 2011, 05:43:11 PM »

Could you, or would you, trust that the Howland airfield was built as advertised?
Yes, based on all the high level government support for the mission including that from the White House and Earhart's personal friendship with Elanor Roosevelt.

gl

This seems like a pretty weak argument. The Roosevelts didn't personally build or oversee construction of the airfield. It was constructed in a remote part of the world by a small and largely untrained workforce. I would not be surprised if Earhart had some concerns about how prepared the site really was to accommodate her needs.
It's not too late to be great.
 
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Airworthiness Certificate(s); fuel capacity
« Reply #48 on: December 24, 2011, 08:05:05 PM »

Could you, or would you, trust that the Howland airfield was built as advertised?
Yes, based on all the high level government support for the mission including that from the White House and Earhart's personal friendship with Elanor Roosevelt.

gl

This seems like a pretty weak argument. The Roosevelts didn't personally build or oversee construction of the airfield. It was constructed in a remote part of the world by a small and largely untrained workforce. I would not be surprised if Earhart had some concerns about how prepared the site really was to accommodate her needs.
I guess you've have never heard of "command emphasis." If the influence from the White House seems too attenuated to you, consider then that Earhart's good friend, former business partner, and, some claim, her lover, Gene Vidal was Director of the Bureau of Air Commerce (like the head of the FAA today) and the airport at Howland was built by his Bureau and Richard Black, on site, was employed by the Bureau. To put it another way, if you were a worker bee driving a bulldozer on Howland and you know that this airport was directly ordered by Vidal and that Earhart hung out at the White House, how secure would you think your job would be if you didn't get the runway built on time? And the original arrival date was March 20, 1937, three and a half months earlier than the actual arrival date and the runways had to be completed by that earlier date.

I think that Earhart could be pretty confident that the airport would be waiting for her.

gl
« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 01:51:23 AM by Gary LaPook »
Logged

Irvine John Donald

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 597
Re: Airworthiness Certificate(s); fuel capacity
« Reply #49 on: December 26, 2011, 05:47:13 AM »

Sorry Gary

It is likely that the worker bees knew nothing of Vidal or of Earhart hanging out at the white house. The labour was mostly native. Some guys hired for a contract and managed by some Americans. I'm pretty sure there wasn't a lot of discussion around the campfire at night about Earhart's social hold on Mrs Roosevelt and the politics of Washington.
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
Logged

Martin X. Moleski, SJ

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2960
Re: Airworthiness Certificate(s); fuel capacity
« Reply #50 on: December 26, 2011, 09:30:14 AM »

... the original arrival date was March 20, 1937, three and a half months earlier than the actual arrival date and the runways had to be completed by that earlier date.

I think that Earhart could be pretty confident that the airport would be waiting for her.


Agreed.

A fairly detailed account of the construction of Kamakaiwi Field is given in Finding Amelia.  That story concludes:

"At long last, on Saturday, March 13, 1937, a message arrived from
Campbell on Howland with apologies that static interference had precluded
communication for the past three days. Two runways had been completed:
the 2400-foot east–west strip and the 3000-foot northeast–southwest strip.
To accommodate Earhart’s expressed desire for 'as long a runway as
possible for takeoff,' the north–south strip would now be nearly a full
mile long. Campbell promised that it would be finished by March 15.

"Richard Black announced that the airport had been officially named
Kamakaiwi Field in honor of  James Kamakaiwi, the Honolulu boy who
had been the first Hawaiian to go ashore on Howland when the island
was first colonized on March 30, 1935, and had been the leader of  the
colonists ever since." (FA, 17-18).

William T. Miller was the Bureau of Air Commerce employee selected to head colonization of Jarvis, Baker, and Howland Island (the American Equatorial Islands).

He was the coordinator for the first attempt to land on Howland. He was someone whom Earhart trusted, and he seems to have been worthy of trust.  I have not read the whole of his correspondence with Earhart and Putnam.  Ric and Pat created a chronological index to the correspondence that gives some idea of how they were kept informed on progress.

The thought that Earhart might have been anxious about the newly-prepared airstrip is undocumented.  It is a mere logical possibility derived from thinking in the abstract rather than surveying the available data.  The argument, such as it is, is based on the proponent's imagination about what Earhart would have thought and consequently what she would have done, if that mental reconstruction of her ideas is correct.  Such arguments from imaginary premises are moot--possibly true, endlessly arguable, and ultimately irrelevant.  We can read the actual correspondence that has turned up to date and we can remember that she took off for Howland from Lae on the morning of 2 July 1937.  It may be true that anxieties about the Howland airfield affected her decision about the 100-octane tank; it may be false.
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Airworthiness Certificate(s); fuel capacity
« Reply #51 on: December 26, 2011, 10:12:32 AM »

Sorry Gary

It is likely that the worker bees knew nothing of Vidal or of Earhart hanging out at the white house. The labour was mostly native. Some guys hired for a contract and managed by some Americans. I'm pretty sure there wasn't a lot of discussion around the campfire at night about Earhart's social hold on Mrs Roosevelt and the politics of Washington.
There were, and are, no "natives" on Howland Island, everybody was brought from Hawaii.
hl
Logged

Martin X. Moleski, SJ

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2960
Re: Airworthiness Certificate(s); fuel capacity
« Reply #52 on: December 26, 2011, 11:40:57 AM »

Sorry Gary

It is likely that the worker bees knew nothing of Vidal or of Earhart hanging out at the white house. The labour was mostly native. Some guys hired for a contract and managed by some Americans. I'm pretty sure there wasn't a lot of discussion around the campfire at night about Earhart's social hold on Mrs Roosevelt and the politics of Washington.
There were, and are, no "natives" on Howland Island, everybody was brought from Hawaii.
gl

True.  The first chapter of Finding Amelia, which tells the story of the colonization and the building of the airfield, is in ''TIGHAR Tracks'' volume 21, 2005, pp. 10-22.

Pictures of the Howland Island colonists in this thread.

I may be hallucinating, but I seem to remember reading the story of the construction of the airstrip from a diary of one of the colonists.  I haven't been able to turn up the reference, if it exists.
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
Logged

Ricker H Jones

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 114
Re: Airworthiness Certificate(s); fuel capacity
« Reply #53 on: December 26, 2011, 02:44:54 PM »

James Kamakaiwi' Journal you're thinking of, I imagine.  It was very interesting.
Rick
Logged

Ricker H Jones

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 114
Re: Airworthiness Certificate(s); fuel capacity
« Reply #54 on: December 26, 2011, 03:15:47 PM »

Additional portions of the James Kamakaiwi Journal are here, and a very interesting account of the Japanese attack on Howland is here.
Rick J
Logged

Martin X. Moleski, SJ

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2960
Re: Airworthiness Certificate(s); fuel capacity
« Reply #55 on: December 26, 2011, 08:09:03 PM »

James Kamakaiwi's Journal you're thinking of, I imagine.  It was very interesting.

Yes, I looked at that several times today.

But it doesn't cover the period of constructing the runways in 1936-1937.  It may be that I have the Howland crew mixed up with some other group building runways on another of the Equatorial or Phoenix Islands ... or I am just straight-up wrong about my recollection.
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
Logged

Irvine John Donald

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 597
Re: Airworthiness Certificate(s); fuel capacity
« Reply #56 on: December 26, 2011, 08:16:40 PM »

Sorry Gary

It is likely that the worker bees knew nothing of Vidal or of Earhart hanging out at the white house. The labour was mostly native. Some guys hired for a contract and managed by some Americans. I'm pretty sure there wasn't a lot of discussion around the campfire at night about Earhart's social hold on Mrs Roosevelt and the politics of Washington.
There were, and are, no "natives" on Howland Island, everybody was brought from Hawaii.
hl

I actually knew that and my use of the word "natives" was misleading. I had meant native in the sense of local (Hawaian) and not from somewhere like the army engineer corp.
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
Logged

Irvine John Donald

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 597
Re: Airworthiness Certificate(s); fuel capacity
« Reply #57 on: December 26, 2011, 09:14:17 PM »

... the original arrival date was March 20, 1937, three and a half months earlier than the actual arrival date and the runways had to be completed by that earlier date.

I think that Earhart could be pretty confident that the airport would be waiting for her.


Agreed.

A fairly detailed account of the construction of Kamakaiwi Field is given in Finding Amelia.  That story concludes:

"At long last, on Saturday, March 13, 1937, a message arrived from
Campbell on Howland with apologies that static interference had precluded
communication for the past three days. Two runways had been completed:
the 2400-foot east–west strip and the 3000-foot northeast–southwest strip.
To accommodate Earhart’s expressed desire for 'as long a runway as
possible for takeoff,'
the north–south strip would now be nearly a full
mile long. Campbell promised that it would be finished by March 15.

"Richard Black announced that the airport had been officially named
Kamakaiwi Field in honor of  James Kamakaiwi, the Honolulu boy who
had been the first Hawaiian to go ashore on Howland when the island
was first colonized on March 30, 1935, and had been the leader of  the
colonists ever since." (FA, 17-18).

William T. Miller was the Bureau of Air Commerce employee selected to head colonization of Jarvis, Baker, and Howland Island (the American Equatorial Islands).

He was the coordinator for the first attempt to land on Howland. He was someone whom Earhart trusted, and he seems to have been worthy of trust.  I have not read the whole of his correspondence with Earhart and Putnam.  Ric and Pat created a chronological index to the correspondence that gives some idea of how they were kept informed on progress.

The thought that Earhart might have been anxious about the newly-prepared airstrip is undocumented.  It is a mere logical possibility derived from thinking in the abstract rather than surveying the available data.  The argument, such as it is, is based on the proponent's imagination about what Earhart would have thought and consequently what she would have done, if that mental reconstruction of her ideas is correct.  Such arguments from imaginary premises are moot--possibly true, endlessly arguable, and ultimately irrelevant.  We can read the actual correspondence that has turned up to date and we can remember that she took off for Howland from Lae on the morning of 2 July 1937.  It may be true that anxieties about the Howland airfield affected her decision about the 100-octane tank; it may be false.

The condition of the new airfield at Howland was not the best funded or organized project. While AE's friends in Washington DC wanted an airfield built it was certainly not something undertaken by a group like the Army Engineering corp. in fact it's lucky to have been built at all. See TIGHAR's own documents at http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/2005Vol_21/2101.pdf. Page 14. In fact it was constructed with a rebuilt bull dozer that was used with native Hawaian labour. 
While AE would not likely have known how the airport was being built she did know it was being built at her request and had no idea what it be like. She had no experienced pilots to talk to about this airport because it didn't exist yet. In fact read pages 15 thru 17 on how this airfield was built. I don't think AE was expecting asphalt runways and a terminal building but she knew it was just being completed for her. Your reply above Marty even states that AE requested 'as long a runway as possible for takeoff,'. She didn't know how long they were.

The idea I floated that she may have been anxious on the state of the airfield is based on these TIGHAR reported facts. Is it arguable that she may have been anxious about this brand new airfield?  Yes. But how many of you pilots out there would take off for a mid ocean airfield just constructed at your request that no one had ever landed on and you know nothing about??  And it's near the end of your normal fuel load and no nearby airports as alternates?    Is it LIKELY she was anxious?  True or false?
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 09:37:07 PM by Irvine John Donald »
Logged

Martin X. Moleski, SJ

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2960
Re: Airworthiness Certificate(s); fuel capacity
« Reply #58 on: December 26, 2011, 10:25:52 PM »

Your reply above Marty even states that AE requested 'as long a runway as possible for takeoff,'. She didn't know how long they were.

What is says is that the people in charge of building her the runway reported the existing and planned lengths to her on March 13.

I don't see how you turn that piece of information that she had been told about the length of the runways into the belief that she did not know the length of the runways.

Quote
The idea I floated that she may have been anxious on the state of the airfield is based on these TIGHAR reported facts.

The "reported fact" is that she was told how long the runways were.

What is not a "reported fact" is your surmise that "she may have been anxious" about the airfield.

Maybe she was.

Maybe she wasn't.

She took of from Lae on 2 July 1937, planning to use the airfield for a landing and takeoff.

Quote
Is it arguable that she may have been anxious about this brand new airfield?  Yes. But how many of you pilots out there would take off for a mid ocean airfield just constructed at your request that no one had ever landed on and you know nothing about??  And it's near the end of your normal fuel load and no nearby airports as alternates?    Is it LIKELY she was anxious?  True or false?

I don't know.  I never met her in person.  Feelings are funny things.  They are deeply personal.  Different people react differently from other people.  I understand that you are convinced that you have a rock-solid fact in your possession, based on what you imagine she would have felt.  I don't respect that piece of imaginary "evidence."  I look at the takeoff as evidence that she judged the Howland runways as serviceable for her purposes.
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Airworthiness Certificate(s); fuel capacity
« Reply #59 on: December 27, 2011, 12:12:21 AM »


... the original arrival date was March 20, 1937, three and a half months earlier than the actual arrival date and the runways had to be completed by that earlier date.

I think that Earhart could be pretty confident that the airport would be waiting for her.




The condition of the new airfield at Howland was not the best funded or organized project. While AE's friends in Washington DC wanted an airfield built it was certainly not something undertaken by a group like the Army Engineering corp. in fact it's lucky to have been built at all.
It's actually the Army Corps of Engineers.

gl
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6   Go Up
 

Copyright 2019 by TIGHAR, a non-profit foundation. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be reproduced by xerographic, photographic, digital or any other means for any purpose. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be stored in a retrieval system, copied, transmitted or transferred in any form or by any means, whether electronic, mechanical, digital, photographic, magnetic or otherwise, for any purpose without the express, written permission of TIGHAR. All rights reserved.

Contact us at: info@tighar.org • Phone: 610-467-1937 • Membership formwebmaster@tighar.org

Powered by MySQL SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Powered by PHP