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Author Topic: What was the fate of Fred Noonan, site of camp?  (Read 80976 times)

Dan Swift

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Re: What was the fate of Fred Noonan, site of camp?
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2012, 08:47:55 PM »

He may have washed over the reef's edge with the Electra if he was too injured to leave it.  Or, he may have been washed out to see from the shore.  Something tells me (my imagination I guess) that he parished early in the endeaver and AE was possibley alone at 7 site.  Waiting for..............
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: What was the fate of Fred Noonan, site of camp?
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2012, 06:51:05 AM »

I suspect that we will get some of those answers at the symposium. Maybe some a little later than that.  If the theory is correct that FN perished in the Electra, I wonder what the chances are that there may be 'evidence' of that in the cockpit after 75 years-----when Ric & Co. find the cabin.
Tom
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Evan McIntosh

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Re: What was the fate of Fred Noonan, site of camp?
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2012, 08:45:44 AM »

Your statistical analysis of the probability of Betty receiving the transmissions is interesting GL. However, by the same reasoning, nobody would ever win a lottery....but people win them every day!
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: What was the fate of Fred Noonan, site of camp?
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2012, 09:21:07 AM »

Evan, I think you raise some interesting points but Gary is correct in his statements regarding the one source being Betty's notebook.  I tend to believe the radio propoagtion work done by Bob Brandenburg too.  However, IF you believe they landed on Gardner then you probably believe they transmitted from an upright Electra.  How injured could Fred be from that landing which wasn't rough enough to tear the landing gear out from under the aircraft like it did at Luke field.  At Luke Field, Fred wasn't in the least bit injured.  It is far more likely he got hurt after the landing as suggested by Gary.  Perhaps he put a leg into one of the many coral crevices and got a compound fracture thereby incapacitating him.  AE leaving Fred in the Electra while she went and explored the island for food and water.  We wont know unless a diary or some other evidence is found that tells us what happened.  Perhaps Tom S is right and Ric and company will find something in the aircraft to let us close this chapter.  Its still a long shot but 22 years ago everyone believed she crashed and died in the ocean near Howland.  TIGHAR keeps narrowing in.
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Evan McIntosh

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Re: What was the fate of Fred Noonan, site of camp?
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2012, 11:12:47 AM »

Some of the injuries that I describe would not necessarily kill someone immediately such as a pneumothorax (later becoming a tension pneumothorax), or a subdural hematoma. I guess the more basic question is why would AE make a camp site so far away from the plane since the plane would most likely be spotted first from an aerial search, and also provide a source of supplies and refuge from rain? If was in that situation, I think it would be wise to stay near the aircraft. It was solidly lodged since it apparently took several years to slip off the reef.
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: What was the fate of Fred Noonan, site of camp?
« Reply #50 on: March 22, 2012, 11:47:02 AM »

Evan---Ive asked myself and others that question for a while now. I do have to disagree with the statement that it apparently took many years for the electra to slip off the reef. possibly off the deep end of the ledge to the bottom(?), but certainly it wasnt there during the Lambrecht overflight, or they would have seen it.
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Gary LaPook

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Re: What was the fate of Fred Noonan, site of camp?
« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2012, 11:53:07 AM »

Your statistical analysis of the probability of Betty receiving the transmissions is interesting GL. However, by the same reasoning, nobody would ever win a lottery....but people win them every day!
I don't claim credit for that statistical analysis, that is Bob Brandenberg's analysis. All I did was attempt to make his numbers more understandable by taking the inverse of his numbers that had too many zeros in them to make them easy to understand.

gl
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: What was the fate of Fred Noonan, site of camp?
« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2012, 12:21:30 PM »

Who really knows why the Seven Site?  Personally I believe it had to do with watching for rescuers.  If you look at an aerial shot of Gardner you can see that if you are on one of the long sides then you cannot see a ship on the horizon on the opposite side.  The island blocks it.  Therefore your maximum viewing area is at one of the two "tips" of the island.  The Seven Site gives you the best left to right view of the horizon with the minimum amount of walking (exertion without much water) and with the maximum ability to move quickly from one side to the other.  Not very scientific but look down on the map and ask yourself where the best place to watch for a ship on the horizon is. 
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: What was the fate of Fred Noonan, site of camp?
« Reply #53 on: March 22, 2012, 12:56:57 PM »

Irv--thats makes sense to me now, other than something coming from the south. She would have to cross the lagoon. I'm still alittle confused :o on how she found herself at the 7 site.. Are we to presume the Fn was already gone? Its a long way from the landing site.
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Evan McIntosh

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Re: What was the fate of Fred Noonan, site of camp?
« Reply #54 on: March 22, 2012, 01:13:07 PM »

Hi Tom,

I thought the people who inhabited the island a few years later remembered that there was a plane wreck on the reef?
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Chris Johnson

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Re: What was the fate of Fred Noonan, site of camp?
« Reply #55 on: March 22, 2012, 01:35:30 PM »

Evan,

indeed there are reports of wreckedge on the reef.  If you goto the main site or follow this link you will find a mind boogling amount of information.

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/AEdescr.html


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Tom Swearengen

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Re: What was the fate of Fred Noonan, site of camp?
« Reply #56 on: March 22, 2012, 06:05:56 PM »

Evan thats true. But----on July 9, 7 days after the disappearence, Lambrecht flew over the island, reported "signs of recent habitation", not aircraft wreckage on the reef. So----either the plane wasnt there as i already gone over the reef before breaking up and washing parts back on the reef as in the Norwich City wreckage, OR he didnt overfly the reef where the NC was, and the electra "could" have been. The 'repeated buzzing and zooming" leads me to believe they they DID fly over the shipwreck and the landing area, and did not see the plane. At 400 feet, and shiney, it should have been pretty visible IF it were there, or just hanging on the reef ledge.
Maybe we can find out what the depth visibility is at Lambrechts search altitute---but from the helicopter video, it looks pretty good to me. Perhaps that is another one of the assets the expedition could use to prove or disprove Lambrechts flight.
There is a chance it was there, submerged, and he missed it.
Ok---I'm crazy
Tom Swearengen TIGHAR # 3297
 
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Re: What was the fate of Fred Noonan, site of camp?
« Reply #57 on: March 23, 2012, 10:33:24 AM »

Tom, for the sake of  this discussion I am subscribing to the Nikumaroro hypothesis.

I have done some scuba diving, and perhaps my perception is distorted because I have not been diving in waters as pristine as those around Gardner, (though I have overflown Cuba and Grand Caymen on several occasions) but I have my doubts to whether an aircraft, even a shiny one like the 10e could be easily spotted at a depth of 400 feet. 

I also am left to wonder why the castaways were able to live for only a relatively short time on this island.  There are plenty of crabs, birds and fish to eat.  If the campfire is indeed theirs, they were able to make fire, and with fire comes the ability to put together a small still for separating H20 from salt, cook food, and signal for help.  It would seem by the time of the overflight mentioned above and the "recent inhabited" finding, they had indeed perished.

To me a logical explanation is that one or even both were injured during the landing.  It has been speculated that because the surface of the reef was smooth enough to land on they could not have been injured.  I have seen several accidents where there appeared to be little damage to the car, but the occupant was killed.  Conversely I have seen several accidents where one would believe no one could have survived, and yet all the occupants did survive.  There for I can in no way infer the continued health or safety of the occupants when involved in a ditch landing.  Further, it would then imply to me that because of the short duration of their occupancy, that both were likely injured and subsequently perished from their injuries.  It would also seem logical to my male chauvinistic mind that FN was more seriously injured than AE, and AE found herself having to attend him, and provide for both of them.  Following this logic, FN with a head injury could easily have wandered into the ocean while AE was asleep, thinking he was walking into the front door of his house in the states.  She awakes in the am, and he is gone.  Another possibility is he perished, and she was forced to bury him, in which case, his remains could still be buried on the island. 

This has likely already been mentioned, but my being new here please forgive me if I bring this up again.  Being a dog trainer/handler it makes me wonder if bring a cadaver dog on the next exploration of the island might not be a useful addition.
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: What was the fate of Fred Noonan, site of camp?
« Reply #58 on: March 23, 2012, 10:47:33 AM »

I also am left to wonder why the castaways were able to live for only a relatively short time on this island.

"How to Die on Niku 101."

Quote
Being a dog trainer/handler it makes me wonder if bring a cadaver dog on the next exploration of the island might not be a useful addition.

Can cadaver dogs find 75-year-old remains?
LTM,

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Re: What was the fate of Fred Noonan, site of camp?
« Reply #59 on: March 23, 2012, 12:08:01 PM »

Yes, many ways to die, several ways to live.  Providing water for 2 is much easier than providing water for a village.  Providing water to drink much easier than providing water to accommodate a dwelling. i.e., washing cloths, washing dishes, bathing, sewage, etc.

Can a cadaver dog find 75 year old bones...  Never tried.  Would be possible to do some tests to ascertain this before any trip. 

Trained for a short bit with a lady who used a pristine white bone for her HR (human remains) object.  Her dog had no trouble locating it.  My dog recently found a cat that had been consumed in an apartment fire, she climbed to the top of what was left of a 2 story apartment, (compacted to a height of about 5') stuck her nose in the rubble pile and with confidence, "told me" where the cat was buried under 5 feet of compacted, burnt rubble.  A few days later they were able to dig in that location looking for the cat and found what was left of her exactly where my dog had indicated.  I was amazed she was able to tell it was a cat even after having been mostly consumed in a fire.  The vet had trouble saying it was a cat, but a very experienced fire investigator had little trouble.
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