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Author Topic: Different island .. I got pictures.  (Read 18358 times)

Ric Gillespie

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Re: Different island .. I got pictures.
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2023, 08:41:27 AM »

Believe me, if Earhart's' Electra is discovered somewhere other than Niku, Ric would be the first to step up and acknowledge that discovery.

Indeed, as I have numerous times when a promising artifact didn't pan out.  You follow the evidence wherever it leads, even if it takes you where you don't want to go.
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Travis Nutsch

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Re: Different island .. I got pictures.
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2023, 09:44:30 PM »

SMH- And Travis wants to base this on 3 grainy images which don't really show anything substantial?

How many threads are there on this forum about a ring and a piece of rope "aircraft debris field..."  That is some crystal clear footage by the way. 

I don't understand why this section of the forum even exists if you guys are just going to be rude af to the only person under the age of 35 to ever give a damn enough to pay money to be a part of this forum.

Maybe try to come up with an even remotely plausible explanation for why the most likely last known mostly credible record of a communication from Earhart includes "e or z" which normally would be less helpful than just plain "e" as part of a set of coordinates.  But in this case I think it eliminates a lot of other possible transcription errors and further solidifies the fact that Amelia was trying to communicate that she was on the other side of the date line from Nikumaroro.
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« Last Edit: February 20, 2023, 11:58:19 PM by Travis Nutsch »
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Randy Jacobson

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Re: Different island .. I got pictures.
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2023, 07:51:01 AM »

What you consider "rudeness" is in the eye of the beholder.  TIGHAR follows a fairly rigorous scientific method of proposing various hypotheses based upon factual evidence (some of which is conflicting).  These hypotheses are then debated furiously (and sometimes rudely) until they can be ruled out or accepted until more data is found. 

If you think TIGHAR is rude, you should be a faculty member at a university doing peer-reviewed research to truly understand what "rude" is.

Your pictures are intriguing, but you don't provide a location, date of the photos, depth of water.  More photos would need to be taken to determine if this plane is indeed a Lockheed L-10 or some other plane; if it is an L-10, additional research is needed to determine if it was Earhart's plane or someone else's plane. 
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Christian Stock

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Re: Different island .. I got pictures.
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2023, 03:02:27 PM »

It's pretty clearly a Ki-34, and NOT a Lockheed Electra. It has some bulges all the way around the cowling, the forward angle of the windscreen. There's even a little scoop aft of the engine cowling.

The engine crank case cover on the Electra is smaller, and the propeller hub is much larger.

Not surprising since the area where this one was apparently found was near several Japanese airfields.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2023, 07:05:05 PM by Christian Stock »
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Travis Nutsch

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Re: Different island .. I got pictures.
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2023, 03:17:13 PM »

Your pictures are intriguing, but you don't provide a location, date of the photos, depth of water.  More photos would need to be taken to determine if this plane is indeed a Lockheed L-10 or some other plane; if it is an L-10, additional research is needed to determine if it was Earhart's plane or someone else's plane.

The coordinates are in the post right above yours Randy.  I also said it's about 100ft deep and the pictures are believed to be from September 2022 as per the YouTube title.

I am afraid to elaborate on how I fit the puzzle pieces together to explain my entire theory.  It gets a bit conspiratorial and pretty different from most other theories I've heard but it all fits without much of any conflict. 

Does anyone know how to find out if the ship logs from the HMAS Kanimbla from 1937 still exist?  The Kanimbla was in service rebroadcasting various radio stations from it's onboard radio broadcast equipment for Amalgamated wireless as 9MI.  I found it's typical passenger schedule seems to be interrupted in the days around the AE disappearance.  I'll add more about this when I get my computer plugged in here in a few.
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Diego Vásquez

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Re: Different island .. I got pictures.
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2023, 01:31:44 AM »

Regarding Kanimbla logs:  Based on research that I did for some NZ warships several years ago, my guess is that yes, the logs still exist and can probably be found at the UK National Archives, colloquially still sometimes referred to as “The Kew” (after its former location?).  They probably won’t be available online, but you can try: https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ .  Unless things have changed in the past few years, much, perhaps most, of the collection is not digitized, although they have digitized at least rough headings and descriptions of what they hold.  Australia and New Zealand have retaken and/or digitized some of their records, so it is not always clear who has the records.  Unless you don’t have a job that will pay you better for your time or have scads of time of time or if you just enjoy digging around for endless hours, I suggest you contact a private researcher.  I’ll PM you contact info one who helped me get started and was competent and reasonable.  If you want to try to find things for yourself, I’m afraid I can’t remember much, other than you’ll need to start in Admiralty 53. 

You can also try the National Library of Australia.  https://www.nla.gov.au/  This won’t be easy either.  I did a quick check of the Australia Joint Copying Project, and it looks like they have digitized some ships logs, but only for the period 1835-1892, which won’t help you.  A simple search there didn’t show any logs for the Kanimbla.  The NLA website has a section on contacting private researchers.  The staff at NLA are very nice and might be able to guide you slightly over the phone, but they can’t do your research for you.  If you go in person, they are more helpful than over the phone (at least they did about ten years ago).   

Several years ago, I was able to find ships logs from summer 1937 for New Zealand ships Achilles, Leith, and a few others at the Kew.  It wasn’t easy for me, although I think it would be fairly easy for a professional.  I’m attaching just the first few pages of a log for the Achilles from July 1937 that I got at the Kew, just to give you an idea of what they look like.  I’m guessing that they probably have something similar for the Kanimbla unless Aus and NZ were handled differently.  The log will at least tell you where the ship was on given dates, but wont give a description of what they were doing.  If you want a description of what they were doing, that might be in some kind of report somewhere, but doubtful it would to have been saved to begin with and hard to find if it were. 

Just fyi, I heard from staff at the Butlin archives at Australia National University that some time ago they were getting in quite a few Aus Army patrol reports from WWII.  Not sure if they would have anything for the Navy and/or pre-WWII or if they ever catalogued and digitized anything, but you might consider trying them if no luck with Kew and NLA.  It would be a long shot though.

Good luck.  I’ll do a separate post when I get time on my general thoughts about your project.
I want to believe.

Diego V.
 
« Last Edit: February 07, 2023, 01:35:50 AM by Diego Vásquez »
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Travis Nutsch

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Re: Different island .. I got pictures.
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2023, 01:52:07 AM »

Awesome thank you Diego
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Diego Vásquez

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Re: Different island .. I got pictures.
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2023, 01:59:20 AM »

Your welcome.  In going through my notes, I noticed that the index to the Admiralty Records is in ADM 12, so you can check there for various other stuff (e.g. individual reports?), but all (?) of the ships logs are in ADM 53. 
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Simon Ellwood

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Re: Different island .. I got pictures.
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2023, 04:56:49 AM »

I agree with Christian Stock - the photos of the engines and cowlings alone preclude this from being Earhart's Electra. They are not Pratt & Whitney R-1340s.
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Travis Nutsch

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Re: Different island .. I got pictures.
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2023, 07:15:54 AM »

It's got a double tail...
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Christian Stock

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Re: Different island .. I got pictures.
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2023, 07:34:38 AM »

It's got a double tail...

I hope so, because the front of the airplane sure isn't encouraging.

Let's see it.
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Daniel R. Brown

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Re: Different island .. I got pictures.
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2023, 08:59:48 AM »

Can we agree on certain facts:

1) They left Lae mid-morning with enough gas to fly at least 18+ hrs. More than one timepiece was aboard, and more than one compass. There was enough daylight to distinguish east from west, and there was no weather to extinguish daylight before normal nightfall.

2) At about the expected time of arrival, the Itasca stationed at Howland received a strong radio call "We must be on you...". Details of LOP coordinates, which depend on having been able to see sunrise in the east, were documented.

If those facts are accepted, I have a hard time understanding how NR16020 could wind up underwater near PNG. Travis, if you have another theory, let's hear it.

Dan Brown, #2408
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Travis Nutsch

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Re: Different island .. I got pictures.
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2023, 06:40:50 PM »

Can we agree on certain facts:

1) They left Lae mid-morning with enough gas to fly at least 18+ hrs. More than one timepiece was aboard, and more than one compass. There was enough daylight to distinguish east from west, and there was no weather to extinguish daylight before normal nightfall.

2) At about the expected time of arrival, the Itasca stationed at Howland received a strong radio call "We must be on you...". Details of LOP coordinates, which depend on having been able to see sunrise in the east, were documented.

If those facts are accepted, I have a hard time understanding how NR16020 could wind up underwater near PNG. Travis, if you have another theory, let's hear it.

Dan Brown, #2408

This is going to be kinda quick and all from memory and I know there gonna be TIGHAteRs but here we go.  Try to keep following along even if it sounds ridiculous at first.  This is just a theory but it seems to fit if you are willing to accept the possibility of sabotage being a factor.  Additionally the BUKA wreck is not far away.  I know TIGHAteRs reject BUKA but shouldn't be considered more wrong than any of the BUKA supporters.  Just saying...

Their Chronometer was potentially off by ~3 minutes(my supposition.) Additionally and even worse many news articles state they didn't get it set at all before they left.  Longitudinal celestial navigation failure because you need the accurate time.  If you read the chatter report carefully and are generally familiar with celestial navigation and other known written recollections of the events in 1937 you will notice a few things to support my theory as at least a possibility. 

  • Amalgamated Wireless relayed telegrams that conflicted with vacuum oil.
  • Amalgamated Wireless relayed to Lae incorrect frequencies to talk to Earhart during her approach/arrival.
  • Unexplained seemingly atypical radio interference is mentioned numerous times from many sources before the flight, during the flight, and during the search.
  • Flight got delayed due to inability to set chronometer.
  • The Chatter report(if you read it carefully) suggests they received a time signal outside of the window that it should have arrived as if the signal had been broadcast late so they decide it cannot be accurate and do not use it.
  • Two way radio communication was never established during flight.
  • On the day of her expected arrival; Howland Island was able to be sighted from 30 miles away.
  • "Distinct Japanese music" heard on frequency(sometimes offset by about 3 minutes) as per log by ships attempting communicate with AE.
  • The betty notebook contains coordinates with latitude that matches the coordinates I am suggesting but inaccurate longitude.

Other needed information I've found to be factual but maybe not necessarily a part of typical/standard AE research.

  • 3 minutes of chronometer error results in a ~50 mile discrepancy between believed and actual position.
  • In 1937 Amalgamated wireless was responsible for rebroadcasting accurate time signals via RF.
  • Amalgamated wireless supplied and was responsible for the radio equipment aboard the HMAS Kanimbla.
  • The Kanimbla was the first full radio broadcast station aboard a marine vessel and was built in 1936.
  • The Kanimbla kept a schedule rebroadcasting a rotating list of land based stations using it's equipment on board as 9MI.
  • The Kanmibla was used to transport passengers between various ports around Australia.
  • The Kanimbla passenger transport schedule shows no availability for tickets for ~10 days surrounding AE disappearance.
  • The Kanimbla's last scheduled destination before the AE disappearance was Cairns, which is on the NE coast of Australia(IIRC.)
  • Early radio jamming by the Chinese is known to have been done by playing traditional Chinese music on frequency to block communications.
  • If the time signal AE accepted was transmitted late it would result in celestial navigation fix showing she was further east than she actually was so she would have been short of Howland when she believed she was over it and was looking for it.

I know there is more I have found to support my idea I am not going into now for practical reasons but if the plane is confirmed to be at these coordinates then AE couldn't find Howland due to inaccurate chronometer causing her to believe she had gone further east than she actually had and when she was unable to DF a signal or contact anyone on the radio she decided she had to turn back.  The track I measure by my math is just about exactly the endurance the plane should have been able to achieve using all her fuel in a straight line according to the pilot operating handbook so she must have been able to achieve slightly better efficiency that it suggests. She landed on the coastline with the tide out in a bay and had terrain on 3 sides and or malicious jamming preventing the search operation from hearing her short path propagated transmissions.  What was heard was unable to be accurately DFed which can happen because of long path propagation interference.  Tide times line up with transmission times.  The radio propagation took the long path and from this location it would have gone right through Amarillo TX and St Petersburg FL(two fairly believable reports hearing AE.)   In FL Betty wrote down what looks like to me coordinates and in TX Mabel reported hearing coordinates she easily found on a map. Her longitude was off due to the inaccurate time signal.  Betty notebook something that sounds like "New York" is possibly "New Guinea."  One really cool one "W40K or WOJ" from the Betty notebook might be referencing 4WK Warwick a station regularly rebroadcast by the Kanimbla. To be able to retransmit the time signal ~3 minutes late in 1937 the technology would have been a 38rpm record lathe.  The Kanimbla regularly had a quartet on board they recorded on the ship and later transmitted at various times so I bet a record lathe would have been available on the ship to be able to record with.  A record which on a record lathe must be recorded in real time is about 3-4 minutes per side.  I am suggesting Amalgamated Wireless in part using the Kanimbla may have maliciously sabotaged the time signal, relayed inaccurate telegrams, and intentionally jammed and or manipulated her attempts at RF communication.  Alright now let 'er rip.  I am excited to read how everyone thinks I am wrong and bat sh** nutty af.
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« Last Edit: February 07, 2023, 06:46:09 PM by Travis Nutsch »
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Travis Nutsch

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Re: Different island .. I got pictures.
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2023, 07:38:22 PM »

To avoid numerous edits to my previous post and to chronologically illustrate the stream of thoughts as I remember things (maybe does not matter) to add I will put them in this post.

I realize this actually lacks continuity to my previous suggestions but this and more just seems to further raise suspicion about the circumstances all together surrounding the documents we've all used to form our opinions.

The Itasca ship logs seem to be added to after the fact by a different typewriter.  I know TIGHAR has discussed the misalignment before but if you zoom in on the misaligned letters you can see consistant differences in how the letters look due to unique typewriter artifacts leading me to believe it was done after the fact on a same model but likely a different specific typewriter.  I also recall that there are two sources for the same log.  The "smoothed" logs are identical except for the final page of one has a blank reverse side where the other one you can see the reverse side of the page is typewritten on.  Why are they smoothed anyway and the originals non existant?  If they were smoothed why are they still so identically messy with corrections and stuff jammed onto the same line yet the back of one is typewritten onto and the other is not...  Something seems off about all this further than TIGHARs position that it was placed back into the typewriter in 1937 to add the inexplicably omitted but document making information.

No doubt Probably Coincidental**
Did anyone ever talk to the Cooper report guy?  From what I found I understand he died a year or two ago.  It just seems wild that Daniel Cooper... DB Cooper... same name different person... is mentioned in connection to Amelia Earhart in 1937.
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« Last Edit: February 07, 2023, 07:48:28 PM by Travis Nutsch »
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Diego Vásquez

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Re: Different island .. I got pictures.
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2023, 09:03:17 PM »

I give you a thumbs up just for working DB Cooper into this. :D   I'm happy to see a young person working on this.  I'd be interested in knowing what piqued your interest in AE and the particulars of how you came across the photo.
I want to believe.

Diego V.
 
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