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Author Topic: The Jaluit Photo  (Read 12568 times)

Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Jaluit Photo
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2023, 03:28:41 PM »

First, this dock is called the Sydney Pier on the WWII Jaluit Atoll map attached. Today, its remains are submerged, just North of runway 03 at Jaluit Airport.

In 2006 we landed a DeHavilland Dash 8 on Runway 03 at the magnificent Jaluit Airport.  I just put the video on Youtube at https://youtu.be/TKW-lonci-4
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Denise Kelsey

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Re: The Jaluit Photo
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2023, 05:33:50 PM »

I just put the video on Youtube at https://youtu.be/TKW-lonci-4

Hey Ric - YouTube says "Video unavailable. This video is private."
~ Denise
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Jaluit Photo
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2023, 05:40:52 PM »

Ooops.  My bad.  The link should work now
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Christian Stock

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Re: The Jaluit Photo
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2023, 06:10:27 PM »

First, this dock is called the Sydney Pier on the WWII Jaluit Atoll map attached. Today, its remains are submerged, just North of runway 03 at Jaluit Airport.

In 2006 we landed a DeHavilland Dash 8 on Runway 03 at the magnificent Jaluit Airport.  I just put the video on Youtube at https://youtu.be/TKW-lonci-4

The little terminal building on the left is about where the Sydney pier started.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Jaluit Photo
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2023, 06:28:14 AM »

The little terminal building on the left is about where the Sydney pier started.

Yes, I remember a big area of submerged debris in the lagoon behind the terminal building. 
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Simon Ellwood

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Re: The Jaluit Photo
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2023, 07:03:32 AM »

The submerged debris can be seen very well in the Google Earth 2/9/2014 and 11/20/2014 coverage
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Christian Stock

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Re: The Jaluit Photo
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2023, 07:56:14 AM »

The video confirms that the 1928 Vanderbilt photo almost certainly cannot be at the site of the Sydneytown pier. In the video, we can clearly see Jabor, the inlet, and the small island in the inlet. None of that is visible in the 1928 photo.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2023, 11:16:08 AM by Christian Stock »
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Christian Stock

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Re: The Jaluit Photo
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2023, 09:00:55 AM »

Hopefully these attachments will post. They show the WWII configuration of the dock, which is pretty clearly concrete and rebar.
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Christian Stock

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Re: The Jaluit Photo
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2023, 05:17:03 PM »

This environmental assessment has some information on piers at Jaluit.
Page A-21 has a map of what looks like the dock that exists today.
Page A-29 has a map that shows the "Sydney pier" and the "Jabor Dock".
A-30 has a map that indicates the "rubble from Japanese pier"
https://books.google.com/books?id=kDM0AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=environmental+assessment+jaluit&source=bl&ots=X_0vCXtkQa&sig=4G6bcGgnCbEsFEEvrWs2INdrpxk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjg9KOm7PPVAhVC5CYKHT56Cg0Q6AEIMTAA#v=onepage&q=environmental%20assessment%20jaluit&f=false

Another great post from the previous History Channel discussion. This environmental assessment (noting rubble from Japanese Pier), the postwar photos of the remains of the piers, the attached photo from 1978 showing that the Japanese pier no longer existed, and the fisheries proposal (https://openjicareport.jica.go.jp/pdf/11617255_02.pdf Page 21) showing that the current Jabor pier was built in 1987, put the final nail in the Les Kinney photo as evidence of Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan at Jaluit. We now see that there have been at least 4 piers on that site:

The German era coal pier
The rebuilt pier with the reverse-L shaped end and multiple pairs of bollards (much of the wood section was removed by 1928, photographed in 1928 and 1935)
The Japanese pier, built circa 1936-1940
The modern pier, built in 1987
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Jaluit Photo
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2023, 07:49:03 AM »

the current Jabor pier was built in 1987, put the final nail in the Les Kinney photo as evidence of Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan at Jaluit. We now see that there have been at least 4 piers on that site:

The German era coal pier
The rebuilt pier with the reverse-L shaped end and multiple pairs of bollards (much of the wood section was removed by 1928, photographed in 1928 and 1935)
The Japanese pier, built circa 1936-1940
The modern pier, built in 1987

I don't understand how your research disproves Les Kinney's contention that the "Jaluit Photo" shows the Japanese dock allegedly built circa 1936.  Kinney says the photo was taken in 1937 (despite evidence to the contrary).
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Christian Stock

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Re: The Jaluit Photo
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2023, 10:04:44 AM »

I guess by calling it Les Kinney's contention, I mean the more broad theory that this photo is of AE and FN. Like many conspiracy theories, supporters take something simple, like a blurry photo, then start conjuring up other "evidence" to help make it true. But Les is the father of this Jaluit photo theory, so I attributed it in entirety to him.

The 1936 (really more like 1940) dock, like all of the Japanese fortifications at Jabor and Emidj, was concrete. It was photographed during the war, damaged by bombing, then photographed just after the war. (see attached photos)

The dock in the photo was actually a jetty, constructed of coral boulders, coral slabs (see the left and right "curbs" of the dock in the 1935 photo), with a coral sand surface.

If they were smart, they would have claimed the dock was built in 1940, so the one in the photo could have been from 1937 (other evidence notwithstanding), but they have instead hitched their horse to 1936.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2023, 10:09:40 AM by Christian Stock »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Jaluit Photo
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2023, 10:14:45 AM »

The question is, was the Japanese dock there when Kosyu (aka Koshu) visited Jaluit in 1935?  Or was the dock not built until 1937, in which case Les Kinney's photo must have been taken during the ship’s July 1937 visit.

The 1936 construction date seems to be based entirely on the childhood recollection of Robert Reimer. He could be right, or he could easily be off by a year.

Kinney, of course, claims the photo he found could have been added later to the travel guide printed in 1935.  For the sake of argument, let's say he's right.  It still proves nothing.

On July 11, 1937, ambassador Grew in Tokyo wired Secretary of State Hull:

"Contents of Department’s telegram under reference communicated immediately to senior aide to the Navy Minister who stated that no Japanese aircraft in that area but survey ship Koshu has proceeded toward Marshall Islands and should now be there. Japanese radio stations have been ordered to be on continuous watch for Earhart signals and many Japanese fishing craft in and to east of Marshall Islands have been instructed to be on lookout. The senior aide expressed greatest willingness to cooperate. Grew”

So Koshu calls at Jaluit (Japanese headquarters in the Marshalls) upon arriving in the Marshalls to look for Earhart.  Maybe somebody takes a photo at that time, or maybe the photo was taken during the ship’s 1935 visit.  In either case, I see nothing to support the hypothesis that the ship was there to deliver the kidnapped Americans (seen on the dock guarded by Japanese soldiers cleverly disguised as Marshallese locals).
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Christian Stock

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Re: The Jaluit Photo
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2023, 11:11:30 AM »

There was always a dock in that spot, from 1886 to post WWII. In 1935, it was the coral jetty. If RMI and Robert Reimer are correct, the concrete, wartime Japanese pier was built in 1936. It's funny to see them attack both the date of the book and the age of the dock.

We've all seen the book. It's a printed book with a table of contents, page numbers, and the photos are printed on the page with captions, so they would need to add a page, and then change the entire table of contents to reflect the new page. The entire book would need to be reprinted since each page is numbered. It is really more like a coffee table book than a photo album. It is dated by the National Diet Library, which is basically the Japanese Library of Congress. I feel the provenance is beyond reproach. If a librarian made a mistake when adding it later, wouldn't they err to a later date? Why have a 1935 stamp on your desk in 1937 or later?

The same blogger who interpreted the photo found the logs of the Koshu. It was in Jabor port a number of times in 1935.

Lastly, The "barge" with the "airplane" is about 15-20 feet from the stern of the Koshu. You would never have a barge floating that close to your rudder. Any wake or current could damage your rudder, hull, or possibly propeller. You either push a barge, or tow it 100+ feet behind you.
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Christian Stock

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Re: The Jaluit Photo
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2023, 02:13:13 PM »

"White uniform and brimmed cap" strolling by the dock in 1932.

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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Jaluit Photo
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2023, 03:05:34 PM »

Looks more like a pith helmet.
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