Print

[Bruce Thomas]

Bob and Monty...here is the link to the letter written by Amelia to F.D.R!

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/6705943

The TIGHAR archives also contain a facsimile of this AE-to-FDR letter, with markings that indicate the FDR Library in Hyde Park as the source.

[Monty Fowler]

I'm pretty sure Amelia and Fred's flight plan did not include parachuting out of their aircraft when it was on the ground. Which is what Betty's notebook appears to indicate. Which would have been long after all fuel was exhausted.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP

[Bob Smith]

Thanks Monty for that insight. I've found the best way to be get a forum readers' opinion is with subtlety, not the direct route. If they were on land, or bobbing up and down on the ocean, or coming down in a trajectory towards a big splash, and if Betty's notebook was written by Betty, there was some hysteria in a small cockpit somewhere in the Pacific. It may also be possible that they tried refueliing in midair near Mili and failed. Who's going to write that in their notes?

[JNev]

Thanks Monty for that insight. I've found the best way to be get a forum readers' opinion is with subtlety, not the direct route. If they were on land, or bobbing up and down on the ocean, or coming down in a trajectory towards a big splash, and if Betty's notebook was written by Betty, there was some hysteria in a small cockpit somewhere in the Pacific. It may also be possible that they tried refueliing in midair near Mili and failed. Who's going to write that in their notes?

That's a rather direct wonderment on your part and it got my attention without any subtlety whatsoever -

Where do you get the idea that 'it may also be possible that they tried refueling in midair near Mili', Bob? 

How would they have done so? 

What evidence have you found that NR16020 had the capability to do such a thing?  Was it supposedly wing walkers with gas cans, perhaps?

Now for a truly profound question -

Why do I bother...? 

[Bob Smith]

Good questions! Subtle or not, my point, Jeff, was not that they did actually do anything over Mili, but that they could have done a lot of things nobody would have recorded or  known about, and therefore we wouldn't be able to verify if we rely only on proving events with written or other documentation. Not to get personal, but how many things can you think of that you did in high school, for instance, that nobody will ever know about? Sometimes couldn't we speculate based on knowledge of proven outcomes in similar situations or examples and apply that knowledge to achieve a proof "without a reasonable doubt"?

[Steve Lyle Gunderson]

??

[Bob Smith]

In answer to your last question, Jeff, you bother because I think you reallly like this forum! By the way, the last post of mine WAS a subtle nudging for someone to answer, and you did. Hope we're still friends! The idea that everything needs documented proof has always bothered me. I'm just sounding off on that.
Mr. Gunderson, sir, there are others I'm sure who don't think I,m making any sense. If something "sounds too good to be true, it probably is" would probably apply here. I think we should be able to read all we can, look at other people's opinions, then make our own decisions. I have!

[JNev]

Good questions! Subtle or not, my point, Jeff, was not that they did actually do anything over Mili, but that they could have done a lot of things nobody would have recorded or  known about, and therefore we wouldn't be able to verify if we rely only on proving events with written or other documentation. Not to get personal, but how many things can you think of that you did in high school, for instance, that nobody will ever know about? Sometimes couldn't we speculate based on knowledge of proven outcomes in similar situations or examples and apply that knowledge to achieve a proof "without a reasonable doubt"?

I refueled a J-3 from a Volkswagen once in H.S... LOL!!!

Yes we're 'still friends' - no foul, just oddity to me that it's apparently not clear that the Electra had no means of doing this, short of Fred climbing out on the wing... 

And, as someone said, if they couldn't find Howland, what were the chances of finding the blunt end of a refueling hose? 

I can't help but reflect as the anniversary approaches... poor AE - she mastered so much so well, actually, and failed at some many critical details.  Somehow she was destined to disappear, poor creature.  RIP, AE - been almost 78 years since we last saw you.

In answer to your last question, Jeff, you bother because I think you reallly like this forum! By the way, the last post of mine WAS a subtle nudging for someone to answer, and you did. Hope we're still friends! The idea that everything needs documented proof has always bothered me. I'm just sounding off on that.
Mr. Gunderson, sir, there are others I'm sure who don't think I,m making any sense. If something "sounds too good to be true, it probably is" would probably apply here. I think we should be able to read all we can, look at other people's opinions, then make our own decisions. I have!

I tend to like people.  I'm told 'maybe too much' sometimes... 

I'm a sucker for the vacuum of the inverted circular triple helix conundrum, too.

[Bob Smith]

I won't tell you what I did in high school, but it didn't have anything to do with a volkswagen! You guys are winners!!

[Randy Conrad]

It's nice to know you guys can have fun with my latest topic. I'll be honest with you guys...I seldomly run to the archives cause I like to find it on my own. The reason I brought up this topic was the letter and her intent to refuel in midair. I mainly wanted input on the fact that the airplane skin found could have been used in the refueling process. To many an open window may sound crazy..but you never know what their intentions were. Anyway found this letter interesting cause it sounds like AE had her finger wrapped around F.D.R. Seems like she thought she had all the  the answers but did not! Anyway hope Ric and crew will find something in the ROV video that will shed some light into many questions and that Riches Anomaly is something for real!

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

It's nice to know you guys can have fun with my latest topic. I'll be honest with you guys...I seldomly run to the archives cause I like to find it on my own. The reason I brought up this topic was the letter and her intent to refuel in midair.

Starting from scratch is not a bad idea.  Who knows what you might learn that we have missed?

In this case, however, we know pretty much when, but not why, the original window was skinned over: it happened in the course of a day or two in Miami.

Moreover, we know where the fueling ports were for the Electra.  By "we," I mean those who have the Harney diagrams and/or who have studied pictures of the Electra being fueled on the ground.  They were a LONG way from the tail of the aircraft!

[Bob Smith]

Randy has a good point if he means the electra could have been refueled through the window to the tanks in the fuselage, but if it was intentionally done on the ground it would probably have been well planned for. If it was  done in the air or on the ground in an emergency situation, I can see where the window might have been used and torn off in the process. Seems like a long shot! More logical to me would be that Fred panicked and tried to kick it out.

[Dave Ross Wilkinson]

Hmm ... known knowns, known unknowns, unknown knowns and unknown unknowns.

[Monty Fowler]

Anyway found this letter interesting cause it sounds like AE had her finger wrapped around F.D.R.

Ahem ... more like Eleanor. It helps, though, when your husband is the President of the United States.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, 2189 ECSP

[Rob Seasock]

Behold Troll with Bevington Object!