TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: Randy Conrad on June 27, 2015, 12:42:50 PM
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Shortly, before Amelia's first go around at the world voyage. She wrote a letter to F.D.R. indicating her idea of "refueling" over Midway Island. She was rather worried and concerned with the hazard of too much weight and the distance. The reason I am writing this is wandering if any of you out there know how you go about refueling a Lockheed Electra in midair? I'm wandering if the artifact of research has anything to do with the idea of cancelling that mid-air refueling after changing course!
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She wrote a letter to F.D.R. indicating her idea of "refueling" over Midway Island.
Hi Randy. I was not aware of this letter ostensibly written by AE; thanx. I am confused about over Midway. Why not just land on the island to refuel? Any thoughts?
jgf
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What is your basis for this story? I don't think we need to make any more stories up!!
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What is your basis for this story? I don't think we need to make any more stories up!!
https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,1623.msg35741.html#msg35741
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There was no Runway at Midway in 1937, Pan Am had been using it as a rest/refuel stop, but that was using their Flying Boats. See:
http://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/aviation/mid.htm (http://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/aviation/mid.htm)
There had been a history of air-to-air refueling going back to (at least) 1922, but the Navy feeling was that they would not expect Amelia to undergo the Training necessary for such an operation. See:
http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=745 (http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=745)
Howland Island (where the State Department had placed 'colonists' since 1935) was offered as an alternative. They were planning for possible future Air Routes to New Zealand with Howland as a possible stopover.
There was a 'battle' going on over landing rights and the UK had denied them in the Phoenix Islands for the US, as the US had denied them for the UK in Hawaii.
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I am confused about over Midway. Why not just land on the island to refuel? Any thoughts?
There was no airfield on Midway Island in 1937, only facilities for flying boats. Henderson Field wasn't built there until 1941 by the US Navy. That's why Amelia came up with her idea to refuel in midair.
I recommend reading Ric's book, Finding Amelia (Naval Institute Press, 2006) (http://tighar.org/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=46&product_id=64), where you'll find a description of AE's original idea, during initial planning of the World Flight, to perform an aerial refueling operation. See page 7, in the first chapter, titled "An Airport in the Ocean".
If you don't have a copy of the book readily at hand, then you can read the pre-publication serialization of it in Tighar Tracks (http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/2005Vol_21/2101.pdf). That link points to the draft of the initial chapter of the book, on page 13 of the first issue of 2005. (At that point in time, Chapter 1 of the book was being called "Kamakaiwi Field".)
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pilotart is correct, the airfield at Midway was built by the U.S. military in 1941. That first airstrip was built on Eastern Island, not on Sand Island (the bigger of the two islands forming Midway Atoll). The current airfield at Midway is on Sand Island. It is mostly abandoned/dormant, used very rarely as an emergency landing field for some trans-Pacific airliner having mechanical difficulties.
See the book "A Glorious Page in Our History: The Battle of Midway, 4-6 June 1942". The first part of this book includes a short history of Midway prior to WW II.
Bruce Thomas -- The airstrip on Midway was not named Henderson Field. Henderson Field was constructed later on Guadacanal. Henderson Field was named in honor of USMC Major Lofton Henderson, who was killed in action, flying from the Midway airstrip, during the Battle of Midway.
Jeff P.
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Bruce Thomas -- The airstrip on Midway was not named Henderson Field. Henderson Field was constructed later on Guadacanal. Henderson Field was named in honor of USMC Major Lofton Henderson, who was killed in action, flying from the Midway airstrip, during the Battle of Midway.
Jeff, kindly read the Wikipedia entry about all the airfields in the Pacific named "Henderson Field (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henderson_Field)," including the one on Midway.
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Thanks for the informative responses, guys. I'm glad they scrapped the idea of midair refueling over midway, or over anywhere. She couldn't find the runway at Howland where she was supposed to refuel, I wouldn't expect her to find the blunt end of a gas hose in midair!
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Bob....In reference to your last post....this is basically what
Im trying to find out.....how did they refuel this Lockheed Electra when
it was specially made for Amelia. What was the maneuver used to do this n mid-flight? I agree with you that she couldn't pull this off....but am curious as to the steps taken to pull off a refueling? Let me know...thanks
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It was refueled on the ground by a cart, truck or directly from drums.
Never WAS any mid-air re-fueling done with Earhart's Electra... or any other that I am aware of (or could find evidence of).
Check the highlighted link here for a nice summary of the general history of in-flight refueling (http://www.peetz.us/ifrhist.htm).
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A really good article on midair refueling, Jeff. I think the lost could have used the technology even as primitive as it was then. But I am now looking for the latest report on the crew looking for the lost that was looking for a good place to land when and if they ran out of fuel!
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The "aerial refueling over Midway" gambit was one of the few times that Amelia's "I'm a friend of Eleanor's, you know, the First Lady" gambit didn't work. It still astonishes me how much she was able to bully the government into doing for the World Flight, solely on her behalf.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
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How about pilot ejection systems: had they been invented yet? Or Maybe that's what Fred was referring to when he was heard saying" Let me out of here" (Betty's notebook ? ) He was trying to get to the door so he could jump out with a parachute..
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Bob and Monty...here is the link to the letter written by Amelia to F.D.R!
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/6705943
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Bob and Monty...here is the link to the letter written by Amelia to F.D.R!
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/6705943
The TIGHAR archives also contain a facsimile of this AE-to-FDR letter (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Letters/Earhart11_10_36.pdf), with markings that indicate the FDR Library in Hyde Park as the source.
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I'm pretty sure Amelia and Fred's flight plan did not include parachuting out of their aircraft when it was on the ground. Which is what Betty's notebook appears to indicate. Which would have been long after all fuel was exhausted.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
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Thanks Monty for that insight. I've found the best way to be get a forum readers' opinion is with subtlety, not the direct route. If they were on land, or bobbing up and down on the ocean, or coming down in a trajectory towards a big splash, and if Betty's notebook was written by Betty, there was some hysteria in a small cockpit somewhere in the Pacific. It may also be possible that they tried refueliing in midair near Mili and failed. Who's going to write that in their notes?
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Thanks Monty for that insight. I've found the best way to be get a forum readers' opinion is with subtlety, not the direct route. If they were on land, or bobbing up and down on the ocean, or coming down in a trajectory towards a big splash, and if Betty's notebook was written by Betty, there was some hysteria in a small cockpit somewhere in the Pacific. It may also be possible that they tried refueliing in midair near Mili and failed. Who's going to write that in their notes?
That's a rather direct wonderment on your part and it got my attention without any subtlety whatsoever -
Where do you get the idea that 'it may also be possible that they tried refueling in midair near Mili', Bob?
How would they have done so?
What evidence have you found that NR16020 had the capability to do such a thing? Was it supposedly wing walkers with gas cans, perhaps?
Now for a truly profound question -
Why do I bother...? ???
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Good questions! Subtle or not, my point, Jeff, was not that they did actually do anything over Mili, but that they could have done a lot of things nobody would have recorded or known about, and therefore we wouldn't be able to verify if we rely only on proving events with written or other documentation. Not to get personal, but how many things can you think of that you did in high school, for instance, that nobody will ever know about? Sometimes couldn't we speculate based on knowledge of proven outcomes in similar situations or examples and apply that knowledge to achieve a proof "without a reasonable doubt"?
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?????
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In answer to your last question, Jeff, you bother because I think you reallly like this forum! By the way, the last post of mine WAS a subtle nudging for someone to answer, and you did. Hope we're still friends! The idea that everything needs documented proof has always bothered me. I'm just sounding off on that.
Mr. Gunderson, sir, there are others I'm sure who don't think I,m making any sense. If something "sounds too good to be true, it probably is" would probably apply here. I think we should be able to read all we can, look at other people's opinions, then make our own decisions. I have!
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Good questions! Subtle or not, my point, Jeff, was not that they did actually do anything over Mili, but that they could have done a lot of things nobody would have recorded or known about, and therefore we wouldn't be able to verify if we rely only on proving events with written or other documentation. Not to get personal, but how many things can you think of that you did in high school, for instance, that nobody will ever know about? Sometimes couldn't we speculate based on knowledge of proven outcomes in similar situations or examples and apply that knowledge to achieve a proof "without a reasonable doubt"?
I refueled a J-3 from a Volkswagen once in H.S... LOL!!!
Yes we're 'still friends' - no foul, just oddity to me that it's apparently not clear that the Electra had no means of doing this, short of Fred climbing out on the wing... :P
And, as someone said, if they couldn't find Howland, what were the chances of finding the blunt end of a refueling hose? :D
I can't help but reflect as the anniversary approaches... poor AE - she mastered so much so well, actually, and failed at some many critical details. Somehow she was destined to disappear, poor creature. RIP, AE - been almost 78 years since we last saw you.
In answer to your last question, Jeff, you bother because I think you reallly like this forum! By the way, the last post of mine WAS a subtle nudging for someone to answer, and you did. Hope we're still friends! The idea that everything needs documented proof has always bothered me. I'm just sounding off on that.
Mr. Gunderson, sir, there are others I'm sure who don't think I,m making any sense. If something "sounds too good to be true, it probably is" would probably apply here. I think we should be able to read all we can, look at other people's opinions, then make our own decisions. I have!
I tend to like people. I'm told 'maybe too much' sometimes... :-\
I'm a sucker for the vacuum of the inverted circular triple helix conundrum, too.
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I won't tell you what I did in high school, but it didn't have anything to do with a volkswagen! You guys are winners!!
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It's nice to know you guys can have fun with my latest topic. I'll be honest with you guys...I seldomly run to the archives cause I like to find it on my own. The reason I brought up this topic was the letter and her intent to refuel in midair. I mainly wanted input on the fact that the airplane skin found could have been used in the refueling process. To many an open window may sound crazy..but you never know what their intentions were. Anyway found this letter interesting cause it sounds like AE had her finger wrapped around F.D.R. Seems like she thought she had all the the answers but did not! Anyway hope Ric and crew will find something in the ROV video that will shed some light into many questions and that Riches Anomaly is something for real!
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It's nice to know you guys can have fun with my latest topic. I'll be honest with you guys...I seldomly run to the archives cause I like to find it on my own. The reason I brought up this topic was the letter and her intent to refuel in midair.
Starting from scratch is not a bad idea. Who knows what you might learn that we have missed?
In this case, however, we know pretty much when, but not why, the original window was skinned over: it happened in the course of a day or two in Miami.
Moreover, we know where the fueling ports were for the Electra. By "we," I mean those who have the Harney diagrams and/or who have studied pictures of the Electra being fueled on the ground. They were a LONG way from the tail of the aircraft!
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Randy has a good point if he means the electra could have been refueled through the window to the tanks in the fuselage, but if it was intentionally done on the ground it would probably have been well planned for. If it was done in the air or on the ground in an emergency situation, I can see where the window might have been used and torn off in the process. Seems like a long shot! More logical to me would be that Fred panicked and tried to kick it out.
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Hmm ... known knowns, known unknowns, unknown knowns and unknown unknowns.
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Anyway found this letter interesting cause it sounds like AE had her finger wrapped around F.D.R.
Ahem ... more like Eleanor. It helps, though, when your husband is the President of the United States.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, 2189 ECSP
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(http://tighar.org/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1704.0;attach=9138)
Behold Troll with Bevington Object!
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Bob ... oh, never mind. Red X time.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
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?????
You may have a point, Steve.
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Some thoughts on air to air refueling over Midway.
Presumably Earhart would have needed several hundred gallons. The only aircraft capable of that fuel load able to operate out of Midway at that time were flying boats. This cuts the choices to a Pan Am aircraft or a PBY. Since Earhart was talking to Roosevelt I presume a PBY. Based mostly on photos from the era. Air refueling at that time consisted of letting a hose down from one open cockpit to another. At a minimum the PBY would need to be replumbed so that it's fuel could be transferred by hose to the Electra the hose coming out the rear hatch. It would be dangerous to put the hose inside the Electra in case they hit a bump you would want to uncouple. The simplest fix I can think of is to arrange the top hatch so it could be locked open in flight and plumb a fuel inlet just behind the hatch. Then a distribution manifold would have to be added to all the tanks. If your eyes haven't glazed by now formation flying is a special skill Earhart had not practiced.
Bottom line nice brainstorm. Perhaps under wartime conditions the modifications could have been made and well trained military crews could have worked out how to do it with a high success rate in 90 days.
Neff
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Well, had she tried it, we might at least have known for certain what happened to her... ::)
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Air refueling at that time consisted of letting a hose down from one open cockpit to another.
The state-of-the-art from 1935 to 1939 seems to have been "Grappled-line looped-hose." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_refueling#Grappled-line_looped-hose)
It would have required a pretty massive reconstruction of the innards of the Electra, I think.
Not something you could hide from photographers and field hands.
Not something to rely on without some serious training!
And, as you said so well, not something that could work without some extensive plumbing to distribute the fuel evenly through the gas tanks.
According to the article linked above, 16 flights were made across the Atlantic using the grapple-hose system, so the problems were solved, but I just can't see Amelia and Fred planning to use any system like that at all.
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It's not that difficult to plumb a multiple tank system together so you only need one filler opening and one outlet.. its a matter of syphoning. It works on riding lawn mowers with 2 tanks. They all just need a hose connection so they act as one tank. I'd have to assume for now the electra tanks were rigged this way anyway so they would only have to fill at one opening, not each tank separately. I.m not advocating the hose in the window would work, but in an emergency who knows, it would allow an alternative to sky walking!
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It's not that difficult to plumb a multiple tank system together ...
No. It's been done. Often.
But you can't have invisible plumbing in the real world.
There is no evidence of such plumbing in the Electra.
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Example -
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Close to a window??
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Close to a window??
Here is a superb page showing the development of the Electra's fuel system (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/61_FuelSystem/61_FuelSystem.htm), with lots and lots of pictures.
There were no windows near the gas tanks.
Four filler ports in the final configuration.
Not accessible during flight.
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Wadayano. It appears, Marty the fuel inlet tubes are removable from the inside at the flex joints. The front one (added later) on the "drivers'" side is fairly close to the pilots window (sliding?) Do you agree?
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Wadayano. It appears, Marty the fuel inlet tubes are removable from the inside at the flex joints.
Yes. With the proper tools and spare time.
The front one (added later) on the "drivers'" side is fairly close to the pilots window (sliding?) Do you agree?
"Fairly close" by what measure?
It looks like three or four feet to me.
There is a bulkhead between the cockpit and the fuel-tank area.
Are you suggesting that a hose would be dropped down to the pilot's window, retrieved one-handed, hauled into the fuel area, and plugged into a special fitting for that one-quarter of the fuel system?
If so, my answer is "No, the window and the fuel part are not fairly close."
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Ya, OK, Marty. Its a dum idea! Could be done, though, with a screw driver(probably philips head) and about 10 minutes, maybe less with two people?? The hatch over Amelia's head would work better than the window, and if they could pass notes from front to back through the bulkhead they probably could figure out a way to pass most anything, although a little tight?
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Could be done, though, with a screw driver(probably philips head) and about 10 minutes, maybe less with two people?
No doubt.
The hatch over Amelia's head would work better than the window, and if they could pass notes from front to back through the bulkhead they probably could figure out a way to pass most anything, although a little tight?
Our imaginations do not work the same way, Bob.
Yes, on the ground, it would be a piece of cake to snake a hose down through the pilot's hatch and into the fueling area.
Now imagine FINDING the rendezvous point over the Pacific (not a trivial task).
Now imagine the PBY dropping a hose out of its belly for Fred to catch while standing up in the slipstream. His life depends upon it. The PBY operator has no control over where the hose goes. The pilot has to fly a straight line. Amelia has to approach the hose without being able to see it directly, because it has to clear her circular antenna, which stands in front of the pilot hatch where Fred is being hammered by the slipstream. Fred can't give her handsigns, because he is reaching up for the hose. He can't talk to her because the radio system is not wired so that he can take a headset up through the hatch.
I am a believer. I believe in miracles. I do not believe everything I hear, nor do I think the Lord on high would provide hosts of angels to make this system work. And I don't believe the military would sign on to the task, either. The quality of military judgment varies, of course, but I don't think this kind of scheme would appeal to those whose skills would be needed for it, no matter how close the beneficiary was to the Commander in Chief.
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Marty,
Thanks for the info on the Grappled-line looped-hose. It appears to be a good deal safer than having a hose end flailing about in the slip stream. And yes a whole bunch of things could have been done, but there is no evidence Air refueling ever got past the early planing stage. The Grappled-line looped-hose does appear to be more likely to succeed with that great big loose loop in the line and a positive way to haul in the hose. Still I suspect the Navy was wise to by one means or another not try it. I do repeat it is absolutely nuts to snake the hose inside the Electra. Just in case of a tight hose for whatever reason you have to be able to disconnect in a hurry preferably automatically. Think drogue and probe or simply a slip fit.
Neff
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I agree, mostly. Let's go to dinner!
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I do repeat it is absolutely nuts to snake the hose inside the Electra.
Agreed.
It seems to me that I've seen pictures of one biplane refueling another, and that may well have been the method used. Ah, the photo is in this article, "First Air-to-Air Refueling," June 27, 1923. (http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=745)
I imagine that the open cockpit helped in the process and in allowing a quick disconnect, if needed.
Just in case of a tight hose for whatever reason you have to be able to disconnect in a hurry preferably automatically. Think drogue and probe or simply a slip fit.
Yes. The drogue-and-probe and boom-and-receptacle methods seem to have come well after WW II.
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"...Brownie on a string?"? I loved the "under the big dubbya" but don't get the new movie quote -- I've been curious a while now! -- Lauren
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I believe that is an oblique reference to the Niku VIII video team's Hail Mary pass on the last day of the expedition. Jeff, as always, is being charitable.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
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"...Brownie on a string?"? I loved the "under the big dubbya" but don't get the new movie quote -- I've been curious a while now! -- Lauren
No disrespect was intended, 'tis but a tongue-in-cheek nod to the desperate but innovative attempts made to capture whatever images might have been captured by whatever means was available when the ROV relegated itself to the anchor locker...
And as usual, I couldn't resist a bit of conjecture as to Earhart's possible mirth were she able to observe these things we do in her honor, as in "I really appreciate the spirit, guys, but are you SERIOUS???". I beg forgiveness of any judgment that may be sensed in that outburst and can only claim that I am generally miserable at channeling Earhart very well, so take it as one will...
No actual antique cameras were submerged or damaged by this effort.
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Aha, very good!
I was running every old movie I'd ever seen through my pointy little mind........ I can be very slow!
:D Lauren
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If I recall from past reading, the concern by the Navy was that Amelia was not sufficiently skilled as a pilot and would foul the fuel hoses. In other words, she would not be able to hold formation.
Formation flying requires excellent control touch, discipline and division of attention, all of which are taught in flight school.
Even after years of flying, it still made me nervous when flying in close proximity to another aircraft. You never knew what the other pilot might do or not do. :o
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That's a big part of it, Bill, but I think the Navy's main concern was that Amelia would eat a refueling hose in the middle of things, explode in a giant fireball, and THEY would get the blame.
It's alllllll about public perception, and money, in the end.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC