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Author Topic: Gardner: Most compelling argument? Biggest missing piece?  (Read 97595 times)

Bill Lloyd

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Re: Gardner: Most compelling argument? Biggest missing piece?
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2010, 06:27:24 PM »


Do you have any plans to do a recap of all of the evidence from all of the Niku expeditions up through the Niku 6?  I think a lot of newbies like myself would be interested in getting the bigger picture.

I plan to write a follow-up to Finding Amelia that will do exactly that.  It will be a big project.

When the search planes did not see Earhart, Noonan or the Electra on Gardner on July 9, 1937, it does not necessarily prove that Earhart was not there but unless persuasive evidence such as DNA or identifiable airplane parts are produced, then Lambrchts’ report may withstand the test of time.  Thus far the sum of the evidence that you are proffering is circumstantial and hearsay and would not be persuasive in a legal setting or the court of public opinion. Even DNA evidence would be circumstantial and subject to challenge.  The nearest thing to direct evidence that you could possibility find would be the airplane itself.

Black’s Law Dictionary provides numerous definitions of evidence along with case citations and evidence codes from various states. In a nutshell the most concise definition is “all the means by which any alleged matter of fact, the truth of which is submitted to investigation, is established or disproved.”

It appears that you have listed supporting evidence on many pages of the web site and a summary of evidence in a narrative form in the Jan 2004 TIGHAR Tracks. The most recent is a paper published online in October 2009, “What happened to Amelia Earhart, The Case for Nikumaroro” that lists seventeen reasons supporting the Niku hypothesis.  It would be beneficial to see a single complete specific list of the items that you have determined to be relative evidence, pursuant to the rules of evidence and civil procedure, listed as exhibits A thru Z, that you would submit if you were asking for a declaratory judgment or ruling that confirms your hypothesis. You have stated that you plan to write a follow up to Finding Amelia that will recap all of the evidence thus far. This is a very good plan if you do a good job and present your case in a convincing manner with a complete understanding of the rules of evidence.

In general, the rules allow for the admission of relative evidence only.  For example, you list as supporting evidence, the statement that “What Lt. Lambrecht couldn’t know was that there should have been no signs of “recent habitation”.  The real item of evidence that would be admissible is the report itself not your spin on it.  The report is documentary evidence that the search planes saw no signs of Amelia Earhart on July 9, 1937. What you would need to document and submit is evidence to support your statement “should have been no signs of recent habitation.”

A possible summation of your evidence that would be somewhat persuasive is the radio logs of the Itasca where Earhart relates that she is flying on the 157/337 line and documentary evidence that there was sufficient fuel to reach Gardner. These two items would be persuasive in indicating that Earhart was headed in the direction of the Phoenix Islands seeking an alternate landing point. The submission of the Pan American papers indicating the reception and intersection of bearings from the Phoenix Islands would be supporting evidence.  From that point forward there is nothing further that is persuasive that the Electra landed on Gardner or any other Island other than the testimony that for the radio on the Electra to transmit, it must not be in the water.

To prove your case and you have the burden of proof,  you must have much more and much stronger evidence and it just may be impossible to do due to the lapse of time and the environment that you working in. As Dr. Tom King has stated, there could be a point of diminishing returns.
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Bill Mangus

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Re: Gardner: Most compelling argument? Biggest missing piece?
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2010, 06:47:42 PM »

How about the "G" being for Gallagher?  That parcel of land was set aside for the "Komitia" or "Karaka".  (Shoes, p.338)
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Mark Petersen

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Re: Gardner: Most compelling argument? Biggest missing piece?
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2010, 07:11:34 PM »

First you'd need to define the campsite - which we pretty much did on this last trip.
Then you'd need to clear the bush from the surrounding area - but how much of the surrounding area?  Ten meters? Twenty meters?  A hundred meters?

This is a really good question.  My guess to the answer would be as much as possible with the resources at hand.  Perhaps have two brush clearing crews working on alternating days so brush can be removed during the full duration of the expedition without completely taxing the those who are doing this hard work.  Even if the grave site of FN is not found, other items might be found that could prove very useful.  On the other-hand, if the remaining bones of the castaway (presumably AE) can not be found, because they were ground up and eaten by crabs (or carried off and lost for good), it may be that locating the remains of FN may be the only smoking gun that remains above water. 

Either way, clearing away as much brush as possible seems like an important step.  The reminds me of a TV documentary that I watched (I think it was battlefield detectives).  It described the archeology work that was done in the area around Custer's last stand after a brush fire in 1983 had cleared out the dense growth.  The fire allowed archeologists unfettered access for the first time to the complete battlefield and they were able to piece together the details of the battle as it unfolded, skirmish line by skirmish line.  A google search doesn't turn up a DVD, but it looks like it's available in 5 parts on youtube.  Here is the link to the first:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frrGhGgMj9I

Here is also a discussion of the archeology work:
http://www.amerisurv.com/content/view/6641/153/

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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Gardner: Most compelling argument? Biggest missing piece?
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2010, 07:50:13 PM »

If the scaevola is active enough to churn the site and remove the feature by 2007 (6 years) it seems as though it probably would have removed it during the first 60 years before you first came across it.  

I agree but, as far as we know, the last people to be anywhere near that part of the island prior to when I first discovered the G feature in 2001 was when I was there with five other people in 1996. I can guarantee that none of us made the feature.  Before that, the last visit to that part of the island was almost certainly before the island was evacuated in 1963.  So the G feature seems to have survived a minimum of 38 years.
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Ashley Such

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Re: Gardner: Most compelling argument? Biggest missing piece?
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2010, 08:46:01 PM »

I'm sorry guys I just can't keep it a secret any longer.  My book about the disappearance that chronicles the efforts of TIGHAR is completed and will be hitting the book stands soon.  James Cameron has bought the movie rights and plans to Direct and Produce a $400M 3-D epic about the lost flight and disappearance.  My personal Gulfstream G650 is due to arrive any day.  Thanks guys!  :)

Ooh, awesome! Let us know how it all works out, Mark! ;D
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Mark Petersen

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Re: Gardner: Most compelling argument? Biggest missing piece?
« Reply #50 on: July 11, 2010, 09:30:59 PM »

If the scaevola is active enough to churn the site and remove the feature by 2007 (6 years) it seems as though it probably would have removed it during the first 60 years before you first came across it.  

I agree but, as far as we know, the last people to be anywhere near that part of the island prior to when I first discovered the G feature in 2001 was when I was there with five other people in 1996. I can guarantee that none of us made the feature.  Before that, the last visit to that part of the island was almost certainly before the island was evacuated in 1963.  So the G feature seems to have survived a minimum of 38 years.

Good point, perhaps the effects of global warming that are so bad for coral are good for scaevola. 

Quote from: Ashley

Ooh, awesome! Let us know how it all works out, Mark!  ;D

 ;D
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Alan Williams

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Re: Gardner: Most compelling argument? Biggest missing piece?
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2010, 05:53:23 AM »

I plan to write a follow-up to Finding Amelia that will do exactly that.  It will be a big project.

Ric, Absolutely outstanding to hear you'd have time to do a follow up book. Any preliminary ideas for title or rough chapter layout? Can I pre-order my hardbound copy today?  :)
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Gardner: Most compelling argument? Biggest missing piece?
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2010, 06:52:11 AM »

Any preliminary ideas for title or rough chapter layout?

Since you're the first to ask, you can be the first to know. The working title is "Finding Amelia - the castaway of Gardner Island."  The rough chapter layout is still in my head.

Can I pre-order my hardbound copy today?  :)

Wow, that puts me on the spot. When I wrote "Finding Amelia - the true story of the Earhart disappearance" we pre-sold signed copies for $100 each to help fund the writing.  We could do that again.  It would be good to know how many others who follow this forum might be interested in something like that.
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Alan Williams

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Re: Gardner: Most compelling argument? Biggest missing piece?
« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2010, 07:10:06 AM »


Can I pre-order my hardbound copy today?  :)

Wow, that puts me on the spot. When I wrote "Finding Amelia - the true story of the Earhart disappearance" we pre-sold signed copies for $100 each to help fund the writing.  We could do that again.  It would be good to know how many others who follow this forum might be interested in something like that.

Whenever you're prepared to make the offering I'll be ready to order.

Ric, you might have seen my earlier post where I mentioned having that follow up book already on the shelves at the moment the "smoking gun" moment arrives - could be invaluable, could sell countless copies, be picked up by book clubs across the nation, go to #1.  Imagine the additional members and contributions to TIGHAR for future research that could result from such higher profile exposure.
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Mark Petersen

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Re: Gardner: Most compelling argument? Biggest missing piece?
« Reply #54 on: July 12, 2010, 10:48:16 AM »

Count me in for the pre-order as well.  It sounds like it's going to come out well after my book though, but the good news is that Cameron called and said that he was able to get Harrison Ford to play the part of Ric Gillespie  ;D
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Gardner: Most compelling argument? Biggest missing piece?
« Reply #55 on: July 12, 2010, 02:11:08 PM »

the good news is that Cameron called and said that he was able to get Harrison Ford to play the part of Ric Gillespie  ;D

Darn. Now I'm sorry I turned down the lead in the next Indiana Jones flick.
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Chris Johnson

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Re: Gardner: Most compelling argument? Biggest missing piece?
« Reply #56 on: July 12, 2010, 03:24:49 PM »

Graves!!!

What do we know about native graves, how would a casterways grave differ from a native grave?

How long did it take TIGHAR to excavate gaves on NIKU and how can we then compare that to the effort needed to bury someone if we have 2 casterways?
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Thom Boughton

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Re: Gardner: Most compelling argument? Biggest missing piece?
« Reply #57 on: July 12, 2010, 03:56:08 PM »

Ric, you might have seen my earlier post where I mentioned having that follow up book already on the shelves at the moment the "smoking gun" moment arrives - could be invaluable, .........


Wonderful idea, Alan !!!!!

By the way....you wouldn't happen to know when that will be, would you?



Kidding aside..... Ric, I would probably be interested in a copy too.  (offered with the companion DVD as before, right?  :)    )




....tb
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Alan Williams

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Re: Gardner: Most compelling argument? Biggest missing piece?
« Reply #58 on: July 12, 2010, 04:04:22 PM »


Wonderful idea, Alan !!!!!

By the way....you wouldn't happen to know when that will be, would you?


...hm ...something tells me Indy ...ahem ...I mean Ric is close...

(Hey, Ric, I've noticed you're apparently a hat collector - very cool. In the images I've seen of Niku you're wearing one of several eclectic and functional hats. Hm, maybe it's time for the classic fedora? ...you know, not for Niku but for the press interviews...)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 04:21:29 PM by Alan Williams »
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Thom Boughton

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Re: Gardner: Most compelling argument? Biggest missing piece?
« Reply #59 on: July 12, 2010, 04:28:36 PM »

You mean you want him to forgo the Regiment of Foot Zulu Standard??  Perish the thought!


He's worked too hard on making that a trademark!






....tb
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