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Author Topic: The Question of 2-2-V-1  (Read 858585 times)

Steve Lee

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #855 on: April 05, 2014, 07:16:01 AM »

Ric,

I think it would be a great idea to have the Commission Report reviewed by two outside reviewers before final 'publication'.  It's always good to get unbiased input from well qualified people who weren't directly involved in the work and can look at it with fresh eyes.

Just a suggestion.

If you will think about it for a second you'll see that it's a suggestion that doesn't make any sense.  The Commission Report will be the consensus of the members of the 2-2-V-1 Commission on the results of the research conducted at the National Museum of the United States Air Force on March 28.  How could anyone who wasn't there "review" their conclusions? 
Membership on the Commission was wide open to anyone who wanted to come to Dayton - whether proponent, critic or agnostic about 2-2-V-1. Most were TIGHAR members.  Some were active Forum contributors.  Two of the Commission members - Aris Scarla, Manager of the FAA Flight Standards District Office in Grand Rapids, Michigan and Greg Hassler, Restoration Supervisor for NMUSAF - are neither TIGHAR members nor Forum subscribers.  Your suggestion that the Commission's report will be biased is merely evidence of your own bias.
You are free to disagree with the Commission's findings.  The essence of scientific research is the replicability of results.  Once you've read the report I would be happy to try to arrange a visit to the museum by the 2-2-V-1 Naysayers Commission so that you can duplicate our research and see if you come up with different results.

Ric,

You're taking offense where none is intended.  It is standard practice in scholarship to peer review papers, in part because we all are biased.

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Steve Lee

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #856 on: April 05, 2014, 07:21:23 AM »

Attached is a 1938 photo of a man working on the interior of a Boeing 314 clipper.  I see repeated '24ST's in a serif font, consistent with our other pre-war examples.


---
source: MOHAI
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 08:07:31 AM by Steve Lee »
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #857 on: April 05, 2014, 07:31:54 AM »

It is standard practice in scholarship to peer review papers, in part because we all are biased.

I have replied to this hasty generalization in a different part of the Forum.
LTM,

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Monty Fowler

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #858 on: April 05, 2014, 07:36:54 AM »

... It is standard practice in scholarship to peer review papers ...

All true, Steve, and I agree that peer review is inherently a good thing - but consider what this report is and what its function will likely be. This is a summary of what a team of volunteers gathered in one day of field work, as potentially part of a larger body of information related to our favorite piece of aluminum. It is a group of observations about a particular artifact. As such, these observations can, at best, form some of the supporting documentation for what 2-V-1-1 is, or is not. Reports of this nature don't really lend themselves to peer review because they are only a part of the whole hypothesis.

Or so it seems to me.

LTM, who finds dried paint really interesting these days,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 08:35:10 AM by Monty Fowler »
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JNev

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #859 on: April 05, 2014, 08:13:10 AM »

Even for the very dogged, all good things come in time...
- Jeff Neville

Former Member 3074R
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #860 on: April 05, 2014, 08:32:56 AM »

It is standard practice in scholarship to peer review papers, in part because we all are biased.

The Commission Report is not a "paper."  It is a report on the findings of a Commission.

TIGHAR does publish papers.  They are peer reviewed if they are submitted for publication in a scholarly journal.
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Doug Ledlie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #861 on: April 05, 2014, 09:27:03 AM »

***WARNING MONTY PYTHON REFERENCE***

I'm seeing certain elements of cadence in Martin's essay on Bias that have led me to conclude that he must have been a staff writer with Monty Python in a past life, case in point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU

Actually I would probably be displaying a form of bias by concluding that so I retract and state that certain elements of cadence are "consistent with" a past Monty Python connection, to use proper Tighar vernacular.

But seriously, link is also useful as a lesson in applied logic for those of us attempting to acquire good data concerning vintage alclad stamping details.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 06:12:58 PM by Doug Ledlie »
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Mark Pearce

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #862 on: April 05, 2014, 09:47:13 AM »

It will be interesting to see if the Commission has been able to find any examples of Pre-War era labeling that include the word "ALCLAD", or the letter "D".

[Fleeting glimpses of labeling can be seen in this 1941 film about the B-26 Bomber-]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBHDHUmpj1w

« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 10:45:21 AM by Mark Pearce »
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Monty Fowler

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #863 on: April 05, 2014, 12:34:01 PM »

It will be interesting to see if the Commission has been able to find any examples of Pre-War era labeling that include the word "ALCLAD", or the letter "D".

Why is that?

LTM, who finds dry paint pretty darn interesting right now,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
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Mark Pearce

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #864 on: April 05, 2014, 04:12:11 PM »

It will be interesting to see if the Commission has been able to find any examples of Pre-War era labeling that include the word "ALCLAD", or the letter "D".

Why is that?

LTM, who finds dry paint pretty darn interesting right now,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER

Because anyone who hopes to convince the public 2-2-V-1 is from AE's Lockheed has the burden of finding that label 'variation' actually exists, not just speculating that it does?

« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 04:24:58 PM by Mark Pearce »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #865 on: April 05, 2014, 04:39:41 PM »

Because the Commission has the burden of finding that label 'variation' actually exists, not just speculating that it does?

You totally misunderstand the process.  The Commission is not out to prove anything.  It has no "burden." The Commission's job is to test the hypothesis that 2-2-V-1 came from the Earhart aircraft. The purpose of the NMUSAF trip was to collect data and solicit expert opinion as part of the testing process.  Testing a hypothesis consists mostly of attempting to disprove it.  So far, the labeling issue does not appear to be a fruitful way to do that because reliable information about exactly when and how Alcoa labeled its product has not come to light. 
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Mark Pearce

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #866 on: April 05, 2014, 05:53:22 PM »

Because the Commission has the burden of finding that label 'variation' actually exists, not just speculating that it does?

You totally misunderstand the process.  The Commission is not out to prove anything.  It has no "burden." The Commission's job is to test the hypothesis that 2-2-V-1 came from the Earhart aircraft. The purpose of the NMUSAF trip was to collect data and solicit expert opinion as part of the testing process.  Testing a hypothesis consists mostly of attempting to disprove it.  So far, the labeling issue does not appear to be a fruitful way to do that because reliable information about exactly when and how Alcoa labeled its product has not come to light. 

The photographs and other information we can study on this thread provide a great deal of reliable information about when and how Alcoa labeled ALCLAD sheet metal.  Evidence that a sans-serif, italic, half inch high font appeared on ALCLAD at any time in the 1930s has not come to light.  Twenty years ago you found that font style appeared on ALCLAD dating to the 1940s.

   
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #867 on: April 05, 2014, 06:44:12 PM »

The photographs and other information we can study on this thread provide a great deal of reliable information about when and how Alcoa labeled ALCLAD sheet metal.  Evidence that a sans-serif, italic, half inch high font appeared on ALCLAD at any time in the 1930s has not come to light.  Twenty years ago you found that font style appeared on ALCLAD dating to the 1940s.

Are you saying that we have reliable information about exactly when and how Alcoa labeled its product?
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Mark Pearce

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #868 on: April 05, 2014, 10:22:19 PM »


Are you saying that we have reliable information about exactly when and how Alcoa labeled its product?


No, my exact words were;

Quote

"The photographs and other information we can study on this thread provide a great deal of reliable information about when and how Alcoa labeled ALCLAD sheet metal.  Evidence that a sans-serif, italic, half inch high font appeared on ALCLAD at any time in the 1930s has not come to light.  Twenty years ago you found that font style appeared on ALCLAD dating to the 1940s."

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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #869 on: April 06, 2014, 06:49:12 AM »

No, my exact words were;

Quote

"The photographs and other information we can study on this thread provide a great deal of reliable information about when and how Alcoa labeled ALCLAD sheet metal.  Evidence that a sans-serif, italic, half inch high font appeared on ALCLAD at any time in the 1930s has not come to light.  Twenty years ago you found that font style appeared on ALCLAD dating to the 1940s."


Thank you.  That's what I thought you said.
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