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Author Topic: The Question of 2-2-V-1  (Read 858577 times)

JNev

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #870 on: April 06, 2014, 07:47:01 AM »

Because the Commission has the burden of finding that label 'variation' actually exists, not just speculating that it does?

You totally misunderstand the process.  The Commission is not out to prove anything.  It has no "burden." The Commission's job is to test the hypothesis that 2-2-V-1 came from the Earhart aircraft. The purpose of the NMUSAF trip was to collect data and solicit expert opinion as part of the testing process.  Testing a hypothesis consists mostly of attempting to disprove it.  So far, the labeling issue does not appear to be a fruitful way to do that because reliable information about exactly when and how Alcoa labeled its product has not come to light.

Bravo, exactly - and what I love the most about TIGHAR.

Dayton pix to you shortly.
- Jeff Neville

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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #871 on: April 06, 2014, 07:54:53 AM »

Dayton pix to you shortly.

Bill Mangus has set the bar high with this photo.  I was studying the rivets.  No really, I was studying the rivets. Swear to God.
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Monty Fowler

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #872 on: April 06, 2014, 10:38:07 AM »

Unfortunately ...



LTM, who isn't even gonna' go there with this one,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 11:36:45 AM by Monty Fowler »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #873 on: April 06, 2014, 11:04:00 AM »

Unfortunately ...

Once Something Has Been SEEN, It Cannot Be UNSEEN.

LTM, who isn't even gonna' go there with this one,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER

Sgt. Schultz might disagree....
Tim
Chairman,  CEO
PanAm Systems

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JNev

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #874 on: April 06, 2014, 11:06:26 AM »

"Is that stubble, or rivets...?"
- Jeff Neville

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Jeff Carter

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Labelling
« Reply #875 on: April 07, 2014, 05:29:48 PM »

An example of how aluminum sheet labels were applied in Reynolds factory.
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?view=image;size=175;id=mdp.39015024027636;page=root;seq=39;num=21;orient=0

(If link doesn't work, its Aircraft sheet metal. Drake, Rollen H.  New York, Macmillan Co., 1947.  Figure 30, p. 21, http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89090516725 )
« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 12:38:16 AM by Jeff Carter »
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JNev

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #876 on: April 09, 2014, 05:54:06 AM »

Thanks Jeff Carter, interesting.

1947 and more automated process than we've seen in earlier photos of sheets being hand-rolled.
- Jeff Neville

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Jeff Carter

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #877 on: April 09, 2014, 01:34:05 PM »

Thanks Jeff Carter, interesting.  1947 and more automated process than we've seen in earlier photos of sheets being hand-rolled.

The question I wrestle with is that the forum has discovered numerous examples (over 20) of labelled 1930s aluminum from books, research reports, and factory photographs.
- All show labels of "ALC24ST" or "24SO" or "24ST"
- No examples show the word "ALCLAD" in any way.
- All show serif font (similar in many ways to a typewriter-style font)
- No examples show a san-serif font.

These photos include examples from different major manufacturers located in different parts of the United States:
1.  Douglas
2.  Lockheed
3.  Seversky
4.  North American Aviation (assembled the test samples in the Caltech thesis)
5.  Boeing
6.  Curtiss Aeroplane Division

The "ALC24ST" marking has been found in Perdue library photos on three different areas on Earhart's Electra (a part in the engine mount, a part in the left wing bottom, and inside the engine cowlings).
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 02:09:59 PM by Jeff Carter »
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Mark Appel

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #878 on: April 09, 2014, 02:11:25 PM »

Thanks Jeff Carter, interesting.  1947 and more automated process than we've seen in earlier photos of sheets being hand-rolled.

The question I wrestle with is that the forum has discovered numerous examples (over 20) of labelled 1930s aluminum from books, research reports, and factory photographs.
- All show labels of "ALC24ST" or "24SO" or "24ST"
- No examples show the word "ALCLAD" in any way.
- All show serif font (similar in many ways to a typewriter-style font)
- No examples show a san-serif font.

These photos include examples from different major manufacturers located in different parts of the United States:
- Douglas
- Lockheed
- Seversky
- North American Aviation (assembled the test samples in the Caltech thesis)
- Boeing
- Curtiss Aeroplane Division

The "ALC24ST" marking has been found in Perdue library photos on three different areas on Earhart's Electra (a part in the engine mount, a part in the left wing bottom, and inside the engine cowlings).

Thanks Jeff--I think yours is a comprehensive and accurate summary to date. I for one am not ready to say it's definitive yet, but certainly trending per the verifiable time periods associated with respective typographic styles thus far.

It would be great to unearth dated Alcoa internal documents initiating/requesting/verifying labeling standards and associated font changes (alas I have found none yet). If not routine, such changes may have been scheduled on an annual basis or prompted by regulatory issues or mechanical considerations. This kind of change wouldn't have been that big a deal technically, but certainly would have required serious budgeting, material, logistical, and maybe even legal considerations... .
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Labelling
« Reply #879 on: April 09, 2014, 04:37:32 PM »

An example of how aluminum sheet labels were applied in Reynolds factory.
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?view=image;size=175;id=mdp.39015024027636;page=root;seq=39;num=21;orient=0

(If link doesn't work, its Aircraft sheet metal. Drake, Rollen H.  New York, Macmillan Co., 1947.  Figure 30, p. 21, http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89090516725 )

That is a good find. I was interested in how the labels were applied and product assembled.
Of the examples found (no matter what year), how many have the text not aligned with the grain like on 2-2-V-1?  Isn’t that an important detail for comparison?
How would the aluminum sheets be delivered to the aircraft factory?
If the product was delivered in bundles of flat  of sheets, would there be a label for the bundle, or whatever the distribution method, that had more information than what was on each sheet?
For example, might a strapped bundle of sheets have a label that said “ALCOA ALCLAD - Type ALC24ST –x- gauge -50 sheets”. If bundled or rolled with straps the strap might prevent part of the master label from being applied to the upper most sheet so only AD was applied to it
3971R
 
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Jeff Carter

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Re: Labelling
« Reply #880 on: April 09, 2014, 04:50:51 PM »

An example of how aluminum sheet labels were applied in Reynolds factory.
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?view=image;size=175;id=mdp.39015024027636;page=root;seq=39;num=21;orient=0

(If link doesn't work, its Aircraft sheet metal. Drake, Rollen H.  New York, Macmillan Co., 1947.  Figure 30, p. 21, http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89090516725 )

That is a good find. I was interested in how the labels were applied and product assembled.
Of the examples found (no matter what year), how many have the text not aligned with the grain like on 2-2-V-1?  Isn’t that an important detail for comparison?
How would the aluminum sheets be delivered to the aircraft factory?
If the product was delivered in bundles of flat  of sheets, would there be a label for the bundle, or whatever the distribution method, that had more information than what was on each sheet?
For example, might a strapped bundle of sheets have a label that said “ALCOA ALCLAD - Type ALC24ST –x- gauge -50 sheets”. If bundled or rolled with straps the strap might prevent part of the master label from being applied to the upper most sheet so only AD was applied to it

Which way is the grain on 2-2-v-1?  I can show many examples where the labelling was not aligned with the rivet holes. 
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John Ousterhout

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #881 on: April 09, 2014, 07:46:39 PM »

...and how is grain "direction" determined?
Cheers,
JohnO
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #882 on: April 09, 2014, 07:46:53 PM »

The question I wrestle with is that the forum has discovered numerous examples (over 20) of labelled 1930s aluminum from books, research reports, and factory photographs.
- All show labels of "ALC24ST" or "24SO" or "24ST"
- No examples show the word "ALCLAD" in any way.
- All show serif font (similar in many ways to a typewriter-style font)
- No examples show a san-serif font.

These photos include examples from different major manufacturers located in different parts of the United States:
1.  Douglas
2.  Lockheed
3.  Seversky
4.  North American Aviation (assembled the test samples in the Caltech thesis)
5.  Boeing
6.  Curtiss Aeroplane Division

The "ALC24ST" marking has been found in Perdue library photos on three different areas on Earhart's Electra (a part in the engine mount, a part in the left wing bottom, and inside the engine cowlings).

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Unless or until we can pin down a post-1937 date for when Alcoa started labeling its product with words that included the letters "AD" in a sans-serif font, the possibility exists that such letters appeared on aluminum used on some part of Earhart's Electra.

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Jeff Carter

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #883 on: April 09, 2014, 09:27:30 PM »

The question I wrestle with is that the forum has discovered numerous examples (over 20) of labelled 1930s aluminum from books, research reports, and factory photographs.
- All show labels of "ALC24ST" or "24SO" or "24ST"
- No examples show the word "ALCLAD" in any way.
- All show serif font (similar in many ways to a typewriter-style font)
- No examples show a san-serif font.

These photos include examples from different major manufacturers located in different parts of the United States:
1.  Douglas
2.  Lockheed
3.  Seversky
4.  North American Aviation (assembled the test samples in the Caltech thesis)
5.  Boeing
6.  Curtiss Aeroplane Division

The "ALC24ST" marking has been found in Perdue library photos on three different areas on Earhart's Electra (a part in the engine mount, a part in the left wing bottom, and inside the engine cowlings).

To this list I would add that the book "Aircraft sheet metal work; bench and repair work" (1941) instructed to look for "AL" or "ALC" to identify ALCLAD aluminum.


Image URL:  http://i.imgur.com/ZabaXCI.png
Source:  http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001040034

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Daniel R. Brown

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #884 on: April 11, 2014, 11:59:41 AM »

In late 1941 Alcoa gave up its exclusive rights to its registered trademark "Alclad" in order to assist the national defense program (source: 9/30/1941 New York Times). That could have led to variation in labeling the material among manufacturers.

Before that, other American types built from Alclad included the 1928 Hamilton Metalplane, 1929 Ford 5-AT and Verville Air Coach, 1934 Northrop Gamma and 1936 Curtiss-Wright Coupe. Alclad was also used overseas by Dornier to build the 1929 Do X and by Supermarine to build the 1934 Scapa (various sources from the on-line Access Newspaper Archive).

Dan Brown, #2408
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 01:00:03 PM by Daniel R. Brown »
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