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[Greg Daspit]

Alclad labeling on the B-24 "Lady be Good" can be seen in this on-line photo book.  See pages 12, 13 and 19.
http://www.blurb.com/books/2019616-the-lady-be-good
DATE BUILT: December 42, DATE ACCEPTED: 12 December 1942

Looks like yet another font. It looks bolder than what is on 2-2-V-1

[Jeff Lange]

Just got back from Dayton-great to meet all those TIGHAR members. I will let Ric or others with more detailed info post about any detailed findings, but we got a great tour of the restoration facilities, had an hour long confab between all of us and some of the staff which yielded some interesting findings, and then we were able to spend a few hours scouring certain aircraft in the museum mostly to be able to eliminate them as candidates for the origin of 2-2-V-1. Quite a day overall!

[Dale O. Beethe]

As I see it, reference the font used on the "AD" marking on 2-2-V-1, the only way the font will prove anything is if it can be shown that particular font was ONLY used prior to the Electra being repaired (positive), or used ONLY after it was repaired (negative).  Someone please tell me if I have this wrong.  So far I haven't seen anything to prove that point either way.  Everything else about that artifact would seem to be consistent with AE's ride.

[Monty Fowler]

Personal opinion - the font will turn out to be a non-issue.

Professional opinion of the experts who know their stuff - 2-2-V-1 is not a repair patch that was applied at a field-level repair depot, say, maybe, Canton AAF.

LTM, who counts rivets when necessary,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER

[JNev]

As I see it, reference the font used on the "AD" marking on 2-2-V-1, the only way the font will prove anything is if it can be shown that particular font was ONLY used prior to the Electra being repaired (positive), or used ONLY after it was repaired (negative).  Someone please tell me if I have this wrong.  So far I haven't seen anything to prove that point either way.  Everything else about that artifact would seem to be consistent with AE's ride.

Still in Dayton, day for my dad to enjoy today after our investigative exercise yesterday - great being in terrific company of fellow TIGHARs and very productive.

I agree, Dale.  Good review on this held at Dayton shop facility with restoration personnel.  Now having heard from them and seen examples I tend to agree with Monty that in all likelihood fonts won't even turn out to be a determinant, too much variation is already evident.

[JNev]

Personal opinion - the font will turn out to be a non-issue.

Professional opinion of the experts who know their stuff - 2-2-V-1 is not a repair patch that was applied at a field-level repair depot, say, maybe, Canton AAF.

LTM, who counts rivets when necessary,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER

It was very convincing to have the artifact in-hand for study and to see the rivet pitch carefully scaled with dividers, etc.  The irregularities tend more now toward perception than reality - after this examination it is clear that it was a neat piece of work originally, even where oversized rivets were apparently necessary.  Also saw many old repairs on relics there that staff said were wartime repairs - some from flak, etc. - while they were well executed, there's a clear difference in those and 2-2-V-1 by comparison.

I'm very grateful to TIGHAR for arranging this effort and to the museum and staff for allowing the access that we had, outstanding on all counts.

[JNev]

Alclad labeling on the B-24 "Lady be Good" can be seen in this on-line photo book.  See pages 12, 13 and 19.

http://www.blurb.com/books/2019616-the-lady-be-good

[The photos were taken in 1990-1991 when the wreck was still at the crash site.  In 1994 the wreck was recovered and is now stored at an Libyan air base.  One engine and other parts are on display at the USAFM in Dayton. ] 

http://www.rommelinlibya.com/ladybegood/lbgphotos.html

http://www.ladybegood.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Be_Good_(aircraft)

DATE BUILT: December 42, DATE ACCEPTED: 12 December 1942

Excellent, thanks Mark. 

Had privilege to see the Dayton-based Lady Be Good artifacts on display yesterday, very moving.

[Ric Gillespie]

The Dayton trip was a huge success.  The NMUSAF restoration shop staff bent over backward to help us.  Docent Garry Underwood gave us a detailed tour of the facility and presented us with a CD of photos he had taken of WWII rivet patterns on museum aircraft while he searched for matches to 2-2-V-1 (he didn't find any). We had unlimited access to the aircraft in the restoration facility's three hangars and the senior staff spent hours more than the budgeted time working with us to unravel the mysteries of 2-2-V-1. The collaboration among the TIGHAR experts and NMUSAF experts was thrilling to see. We corrected several misconceptions we've had about the artifact, found more labeling, found new problems matching it to the Electra but also noted new features that move it further away from WWII aircraft.  In short, we moved the investigation significantly forward.

The researchers who came to Dayton did such a great job we've decided to dub them the Artifact 2-2-V-1 Research Commission. As Commissioner (ahem) I've proposed that they all submit their thoughts about what we now know about the artifact and where we should go from here. I'll then draft a Commission Report and send it around to them for review.  Once we've reached a consensus and have all signed off on the report we'll release it for publication on the TIGHAR website and post it here to the forum for discussion.  In the meantime I'll ask that we refrain from further speculation until we all have the updated facts of the case.

[Monty Fowler]

The collaboration among the TIGHAR experts and NMUSAF experts was thrilling to see.

In the meantime I'll ask that we refrain from further speculation until we all have the updated facts of the case.

*points up* What Ric said. We've got an awful lot of new information to assemble, collate and analyze. I would like to quietly suggest that if people want to contribute to moving the inquire into 2-V-1-1 forward, that they donate money, for the hyperspectral imaging effort. There are some new and very, very important questions that such a study can help answer, definitively.

Questions and speculation are cheap. Answers are expensive. Mrs. Ford, Neville and myself have already donated. Who's with us?

LTM, who discovered that dry paint can be pretty darn interesting,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER

[Mark Pearce]

Alclad labeling on the B-24 "Lady be Good" can be seen in this on-line photo book.  See pages 12, 13 and 19.

http://www.blurb.com/books/2019616-the-lady-be-good

Excellent, thanks Mark. 

Had privilege to see the Dayton-based Lady Be Good artifacts on display yesterday, very moving.

My pleasure Jeff.  The trip to Dayton must have been a real thrill. 

This may be of interest- Midwest Aero Restorations, Ltd, of Danville Illinois, reproduces a number of different Alclad label fonts when restoring P-51 Mustangs- some sans-serif, some with serifs.

"...Authentic, period-accurate Alcoa and/or Reynolds aluminum water marks are recreated throughout the aircraft, and can be seen on the bare metal of the wing fuel tank panels, and within the wheel well skins, as found on the original airframe and recreated in the restoration. (Where treated with chromate yellow primer, the watermarks bleed through, as they are a dye rather than paint.)"
http://www.warbirdsim.com/Store.do?state=ViewProduct&product=23&category=

[Here are three examples- a few more can be seen by clicking through the photo album.]
http://midwestaero.com/site/Photo_Gallery/Pages/Happy_Jacks_Go_Buggy.html#60

http://midwestaero.com/site/Photo_Gallery/Pages/Happy_Jacks_Go_Buggy.html#65

http://midwestaero.com/site/Photo_Gallery/Pages/Happy_Jacks_Go_Buggy.html#76

[Monty Fowler]

Still, Mark ... it's a restoration. And therefore, to my mind, of very, very limited utility for the task at hand.

As I said earlier, I now firmly believe that the font will turn out to be a non-issue. As Jeff Neville noted, there are just too many variabilities to use that alone to verify, or exclude, 2-V-1-1.

LTM, who had discovered that dried paint can be pretty darn interesting,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER

[Chuck Lynch]

I'm assuming that the Artifact 2-2-V-1 Research Commission will be a Blue Ribbon Commission.

We're close... oh, so close.

[Dale O. Beethe]

As I see it, reference the font used on the "AD" marking on 2-2-V-1, the only way the font will prove anything is if it can be shown that particular font was ONLY used prior to the Electra being repaired (positive), or used ONLY after it was repaired (negative).  Someone please tell me if I have this wrong.  So far I haven't seen anything to prove that point either way.  Everything else about that artifact would seem to be consistent with AE's ride.

Still in Dayton, day for my dad to enjoy today after our investigative exercise yesterday - great being in terrific company of fellow TIGHARs and very productive.

I agree, Dale.  Good review on this held at Dayton shop facility with restoration personnel.  Now having heard from them and seen examples I tend to agree with Monty that in all likelihood fonts won't even turn out to be a determinant, too much variation is already evident.

That's about what I expected.  I would think being able to prove, at this late date, exactly what font was used when and where would be EXTREMELY difficult. 

[Mark Pearce]

As I said earlier, I now firmly believe that the font will turn out to be a non-issue. As Jeff Neville noted, there are just too many variabilities to use that alone to verify, or exclude, 2-V-1-1.

I have to respectfully disagree.  The font was certainly an important issue back in 1992 when Ric put effort into researching the subject and then reported he found three examples that match the letter style seen on 2-2-V-1.  Of course anyone can deny it if they choose to, but the font can now be shown to match up only with WW2 period markings.  The distinctive font [slanted, sans-serif, one half inch high], has nothing in common with the markings visible in the photos of AE's Electra, the Seversky P-35, or in the photo of the other Lockheed under construction in the Alcoa handbook "Aluminum in Aircraft."

There may be a new 'letter related' hurdle that prevents connecting 2-2-V-1 to AE's Lockheed.  There is good reason to believe the letter 'D' did not appear at all in Alclad labeling before the 1940s.  The 1941 book; "Aircraft Sheet Metal Work; Bench and Repair Work", explains how to interpret the lettering in Alcoa markings at that time-

"...The letters which follow immediately after the S indicate the temper of the alloy; for example , 2SO means aluminum in its dead soft state... The letters AL or ALC preceding the alloy designation indicate that the material is Alclad... The letters AN following the temper designation signify that the material conforms to the Army and Navy specifications.  The mill or plant where the material was manufactured is shown by a letter following the AN: A for Alcoa, Tenn., K for Kensington, Pa., and E for Edgewater, N.J.  Thus a piece of metal labeled AL-17ST-ANA would be heat-treated, Alclad dural which conforms to the Army and Navy specifications and comes from the mill at Alcoa, Tenn."

[See pages 13 and 14]

'Aircraft Sheet Metal Work; Bench and Repair Work', by H. Edward Boggess.  1941

http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001040034

[Mark Appel]

And Mr. Pearce, I must respectfully disagree with your disagreement... You break the font styles into two very distinct, absolute (and for now, arbitrary) categories: a) serif-laden, pre WWII style, and b) san-serif, italic WWII style. After examining 2-2-V-1 in detail, I am very hesitant to subscribe to that model. You may be right in the end. But right now I can tell you: way too much variability is evident in Alcoa font styles to yet draw any definitive conclusions. At this stage there appears to be variability even within your two arbitrary categories. Moreover, multiple factors other than the font styles themselves may influence appearance. Time (and a lot more work) will tell...