Print

[JNev]

This C-47A patch picture from "Tracks" 1993, Vol. 9 has a very familiar "AD" visible, and yet shows at least one serifed character as well... interesting view of some stylish metal ID printing.

[Mark Pearce]

The font issue will turn out to be immaterial - my view.

2-V-1-1 is almost certainly a factory-applied as opposed to a field-applied piece of aluminum - what numerous experts who have personally examined it say.

What is really, really, really interesting right now, to me, is paint. Especially silver paint. Especially silver paint that Lockheed used as an internal anti-corrosion treatment in the 1930s.

LTM, who has discovered that dry paint can be pretty darn interesting,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER

Silver paint was also used in the 1940s Monty,... and "Aluminum" paint too.

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/01/stuff_eng_interior_colours_us.htm

"This photo taken at the North American in Inglewood provides a perfect example of the variety of interior finishes employed on but a single aircraft, it this case the B-25. The engine nacelle behind the worker shows two different shades, one on the outer surface of the nacelle, and another on the bulkhead facing the wheel well. The singular cross-member in the middle of the bulkhead partially hiding behind the neck of the worker is in yet another colour, significantly darker than the previous two.  The undercarriage strut is painted in silver"



"Aluminium paint finishes have been widely used in the aircraft industry since the 1910s..."

"Early B-17s had overall Zinc Chromate Yellow interiors, Bronze Green cockpits and navigator's stations, and Aluminium lacquer bomb bays"

North American B-25 Mitchell
"Interior of the bomb bay and bay doors was painted in Aluminium lacquer."

"Later models of the B-25 went to overall Bronze or Dull Dark Green in the cockpit with natural metal rear fuselage and Aluminium lacquer wheel wells."

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/02/stuff_eng_interior_colours_us_part2.htm
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http://www.goldenarrowresearch.com/resources/USAAF%20Painting%20Practices%20During%20WWII.pdf

"United States Army Air Corps Painting Practices During World War II"

"...Contrary to popular belief, most Natural Metal aircraft were waxed or over-sprayed with
a clear coat, thus allowing the silver primer and natural metal surfaces to show through."

[Monty Fowler]

Thanks, Mark. As a model builder of WW II aircraft, I was aware of the use of both silver and aluminum paint, among many, many other undercoating colors.

I have a very, very specific reason for homing in on silver paint right now. I just hope it doesn't take too long to get the answers.

LTM, who finds dry paint really, really interesting right now,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER

[Tim Gard]

Here's an organisation working with '30's alloy ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAHcAbxuu00

[Mark Appel]

"Interesting shot of what is apparently Enola Gay radio op station
Am I seeing three different "looks" in the labelling on the same piece? Not sure if its font/size/bold or what that makes the lines look different.
(With all the tangents in this thread I'm not sure if we have discarded AN-A-13 labelling as irrelevant but here it is in an aircraft accepted May/45)
Great photo Doug... many thanks.  I believe you've found another exact match with the font seen on 2-2-V-1."

No, Mark. It's not an "exact" match. But the 2-2-V-1 typographic characters resemble the Enola Gay and Electra 1015 mod and Electra 1052 very closely. And yes, Doug. There are "three different looks"--even when there is general similarity. That was and is my main point; many factors can impact the manual application of a print rendering.

It is very interesting to note that this is the first time I've personally seen a sans serif font associated with a pre-war aircraft (1052). It is also interesting to note that the typeface on the 1945 production B-29 (Enola Gay) while sans-serif, italic, actually reverts to a much more nuanced and delicate version of the typeface than seen on most WII aircraft thus far--which are very bold with no design nuances. And I have little firm data to explain those discrepancies.

I say again. Many factors can influence the appearance of a manually printed character. And we have neither fully accounted for, nor characterized them...

Three steps forward. Two to the side. One back...

[Hal Beck]

I found another example of a definitively pre-war Alclad font in a 1938 Cal Tech thesis (warning - don't click on url if you don't want to download the long document): http://thesis.library.caltech.edu/2706/1/Dunn_lg_1938.pdf

Here we have 'ALC24S-T' in a serif-style font, as in the other pre-war examples (I inadvertantly said san-serif when I initially posted this).

** apologies for not uploading a jpeg; my version of acrobat doesn't allow me to convert the pdf. **

[Steve Lee]

"Interesting shot of what is apparently Enola Gay radio op station
Am I seeing three different "looks" in the labelling on the same piece? Not sure if its font/size/bold or what that makes the lines look different.
(With all the tangents in this thread I'm not sure if we have discarded AN-A-13 labelling as irrelevant but here it is in an aircraft accepted May/45)
Great photo Doug... many thanks.  I believe you've found another exact match with the font seen on 2-2-V-1."

No, Mark. It's not an "exact" match. But the 2-2-V-1 typographic characters resemble the Enola Gay and Electra 1015 mod and Electra 1052 very closely. And yes, Doug. There are "three different looks"--even when there is general similarity. That was and is my main point; many factors can impact the manual application of a print rendering.

It is very interesting to note that this is the first time I've personally seen a sans serif font associated with a pre-war aircraft (1052). It is also interesting to note that the typeface on the 1945 production B-29 (Enola Gay) while sans-serif, italic, actually reverts to a much more nuanced and delicate version of the typeface than seen on most WII aircraft thus far--which are very bold with no design nuances. And I have little firm data to explain those discrepancies.

I say again. Many factors can influence the appearance of a manually printed character. And we have neither fully accounted for, nor characterized them...

Three steps forward. Two to the side. One back...

But Mark, as Ric said, "...we don't know whether the cover was original construction or a later replacement".  According to the Tighar Tracks article the actuator flap bears the AN-A-13 marking (we can see the 'AN' in the photo), and the AN-A-13 seems to indicate a military specification that came into being some time after 1941.

So, the actuator flap on #1052 doesn't prove that that markings matching 2-2-V-1 were present on pre-war Alclad.

The markings on 1015 are also on a part that Ric says is "...a modification and we don't know when or why the modification was done."

[Steve Lee]

I found another example of a definitively pre-war Alclad font in a 1938 Cal Tech thesis (warning - don't click on url if you don't want to download the long document): http://thesis.library.caltech.edu/2706/1/Dunn_lg_1938.pdf

Here we have 'ALC24S-T' in a serif-style font, as in the other pre-war examples (I inadvertantly said san-serif when I initially posted this).

** apologies for not uploading a jpeg; my version of acrobat doesn't allow me to convert the pdf. **

Here is a jpeg thumbnail of a photo from the thesis.

[richie conroy]

Hi All

2 interesting links, http://thesis.library.caltech.edu/2706/1/Dunn_lg_1938.pdf from Hal

http://thesis.library.caltech.edu/6428/1/Hege_jc_1945.pdf

Ric is it possible the heat damage was from lae take off the underbelly antenna striking the skin when it sheared off

[Steve Lee]

Something I just noticed while looking at the labeling on c/n 1015 (see Mark Pearce's post above, for example) is that there is a '3' after the 'T', i.e., '24S T3'.

Have we seen this 'T3' before as marking on Alclad?  Perhaps it is an additional clue indicating the date of manufacture?

[Mark Appel]

"So, the actuator flap on #1052 doesn't prove that that markings matching 2-2-V-1 were present on pre-war Alclad."

Thanks Steve, but I specifically refrained from suggesting the markings on 1052 "proved" anything. I said it was "interesting" and still think so. I am fully aware it may be a replacement piece. In any event we now appear to have other examples of sans serif italicized fonts used prior to WWII and serif roman fonts in WWII. We also have examples that fit somewhere between, design-wise.

These are interesting data points, but we are far from being able to say anything definitive or exclusive about font styles vs time periods yet. Clearly, when it comes to this issue, we literally haven't even counted all the variables...

[Steve Lee]

"So, the actuator flap on #1052 doesn't prove that that markings matching 2-2-V-1 were present on pre-war Alclad."

Thanks Steve, but I specifically refrained from suggesting the markings on 1052 "proved" anything. I said it was "interesting" and still think so. I am fully aware it may be a replacement piece. In any event we now appear to have other examples of sans serif italicized fonts used prior to WWII and serif roman fonts in WWII. We also have examples that fit somewhere between, design-wise.

These are interesting data points, but we are far from being able to say anything definitive or exclusive about font styles vs time periods yet. Clearly, when it comes to this issue, we literally haven't even counted all the variables...

Mark,

I'm not following you.  You just said (the part I put in boldface) that the 1052 photo is pre-war sans serif font. But according to what Ric said (we don't know if the cover was original construction or a later replacement) we don't know the dating, pre-war or WW2 era.  And as best as we can tell, the AN-A-13 seems to indicate a post-1941 military specification. 

Can you explain why you think this is pre-war?  Maybe I'm just up way past my bed time...

[Ric Gillespie]

Silver paint was also used in the 1940s Monty,... and "Aluminum" paint too.

Fortunately we have an example of the specific paint that Lockheed used on the interior surfaces of the Model 10.  If there is paint on the interior surface of 2-2-V-1 we can see if it is a match to the paint used by Lockheed. The paint question has the potential to be another requirement for proposed aircraft-of-origin 2-2-V-1.

[JNev]

Something I just noticed while looking at the labeling on c/n 1015 (see Mark Pearce's post above, for example) is that there is a '3' after the 'T', i.e., '24S T3'.

Have we seen this 'T3' before as marking on Alclad?  Perhaps it is an additional clue indicating the date of manufacture?

"T3" has to do with heat treat / hardness value.

[Mark Appel]

"So, the actuator flap on #1052 doesn't prove that that markings matching 2-2-V-1 were present on pre-war Alclad."

Thanks Steve, but I specifically refrained from suggesting the markings on 1052 "proved" anything. I said it was "interesting" and still think so. I am fully aware it may be a replacement piece. In any event we now appear to have other examples of sans serif italicized fonts used prior to WWII and serif roman fonts in WWII. We also have examples that fit somewhere between, design-wise.

These are interesting data points, but we are far from being able to say anything definitive or exclusive about font styles vs time periods yet. Clearly, when it comes to this issue, we literally haven't even counted all the variables...

Mark,

I'm not following you.  You just said (the part I put in boldface) that the 1052 photo is pre-war sans serif font. But according to what Ric said (we don't know if the cover was original construction or a later replacement) we don't know the dating, pre-war or WW2 era.  And as best as we can tell, the AN-A-13 seems to indicate a post-1941 military specification. 

Can you explain why you think this is pre-war?  Maybe I'm just up way past my bed time...

Steve I think you're trying to impute meaning to my language that I don't believe is there. Maybe my deliberate imprecision is misleading you... Let me be clear: I haven't seen any proof of anything yet. I don't even know if one can divide the font styles into the arbitrary categories "Pre War" and "WWII." I made those terms up. I do think it's interesting that examples of a variety of font styles and sub-styles is emerging. Some seem to be associated with pre-war and some seem to be associated with WWII.

The sans serif typeface is on #1052. Original, replacement, or otherwise. It's there. That's a fact. Therefore it's "associated" with a pre-war aircraft. So that's "interesting" to me. The Enola Gay example seems to represent a reversion to any earlier sub-style. But I ain't claimin' any of that to be "true." Only "interesting." And "as best as we can tell," while true, is not definitive.

In fact, you may ignore anything I've said except for, "we clearly haven't fully characterized the typographic labeling variations and permutations on aircraft aluminum c 1935-1945."