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Author Topic: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight  (Read 85233 times)

C.W. Herndon

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Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
« Reply #75 on: July 21, 2014, 03:20:09 PM »


I agree with Woody. And it's not just a question of ratings or experience in types.

Flying internationally is a whole different ballgame from Sunday flights to enjoy pancake breakfasts 50 miles away in your 172.

International flying requires stricter adherence to procedures, very careful route planning (especially within Europe), frequent position reporting when out of radar contact (which is most of the time), ability to understand the most contorted forms of the English language when you are tired and haggard, dealing with handling agents some of them lazy and/or unscrupulous, and often overcoming physical disabilities brought on from the consumption of "foods" at the various places you stop to rest and refuel.

Oceanic flight is a specialty unto itself. Careful consideration must be given to winds aloft, fuel consumption and points-of-no-return. Survival equipment must be appropriate and its use properly understood. I have just completed my 100th Trans-Atlantic flight: every successful crossing is worthy of a small prayer upon completion.

So Amelia Rose Earhart may not be the last word in aviation, but as someone who has circumnavigated the Earth twice, I feel it unfair for those who have accomplished less than Ms. Earhart to weigh in with much criticism.

Thanks Tim. I know the feeling. I spent 3 years flying in Germany (Berlin) during my Army service. I used to tell my wife that if you could understand a German, speaking English over an aircraft radio, you could understand most anything!

The time that I was there was during the "Cold War" while there was still a wall around Berlin (we still were awarded the WW2 Army of occupation medal for our service there). We could only fly twin engine aircraft in and out of Berlin so it was always the U-8 that we used for those missions. The air corridor we flew was 110nm long and we were always met by Migs when we returned. Very interesting.

I also spent a year flying Bell 206B and 206L helicopters in the Gulf of Mexico transporting crew members for the oil platforms to and from our home base and between platforms. It was VFR only flying but that also gets very interesting when the visibility is 3miles and you are flying to a platform that is 90nm offshore.
Woody (former 3316R)
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JNev

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Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
« Reply #76 on: July 21, 2014, 03:36:07 PM »

As a longtime pilot with an ATP ( Airline Transport Pilot) Certificate, I am having considerable difficulty understanding some of the negative comments that have been made about Amelia Rose.

I agree with Woody. And it's not just a question of ratings or experience in types.

Flying internationally is a whole different ballgame from Sunday flights to enjoy pancake breakfasts 50 miles away in your 172.

International flying requires stricter adherence to procedures, very careful route planning (especially within Europe), frequent position reporting when out of radar contact (which is most of the time), ability to understand the most contorted forms of the English language when you are tired and haggard, dealing with handling agents some of them lazy and/or unscrupulous, and often overcoming physical disabilities brought on from the consumption of "foods" at the various places you stop to rest and refuel.

Oceanic flight is a specialty unto itself. Careful consideration must be given to winds aloft, fuel consumption and points-of-no-return. Survival equipment must be appropriate and its use properly understood. I have just completed my 100th Trans-Atlantic flight: every successful crossing is worthy of a small prayer upon completion.

So Amelia Rose Earhart may not be the last word in aviation, but as someone who has circumnavigated the Earth twice, I feel it unfair for those who have accomplished less than Ms. Earhart to weigh in with much criticism.

Woody's got a head full of good sense and years and many hours of great experience.  I for one have no problem with his point of view and deeply respect it; I also do not approach it in terms of my own experience.

As to criticism of Ms. Earhart, I realize you weren't necessarily pointing beyond Ric, perhaps.  But for the record, I don't feel so critical as I do underwhelmed, in terms of this having been a majestic feat, Tim.  I'm happy for your experience and I'm sure that gives you a perspective which I cannot possess.  I am acquainted with the transport pilot's credo on Atlantic crossings of "please Lord, don't let me... " - and it's over my head. 

And while I respect all that, it doesn't stop me, a member of 'the public', from having a valid point of view of my own, however unwashed: this wasn't even a marginally breath-taking feat, it was done with excellent technology, far past that of many who've done the same thing in lesser equipment; it was more a hightone publicity effort - with a particular 'well known' name highly visible on the marquee, than an aviation ground-breaker.  As such it is simply more sound-bite and visual splash than it is record-setting, IMO. 

Could I mount that same effort from scratch?  I lack the funds, smile and good looks, not to mention 'the name' - so, no hope of gaining a foundation to make it happen.  Could I handle the technical end of it with a well-qualified instructor aboard?  In a heart beat, with several times the flight experience of Ms. Earhart (but far less than Woody, for example). 

Now if I did something truly breath-takingly ground-breaking, like 'round the world in 8 days in a balloon-lofted lawn chair' I bet I'd get some attention (and perhaps criticism by others that have no idea how tough it is to do that, ye think?).

So yes, she did it - and used her name to get attention and gain some support for women to learn to fly.  Not bad - just not some great aviation feat, as this 'member of the public' views it.  My point of view isn't a matter of pilot bravado, it is merely a matter of considering how much real pioneering went on: zero.  It is more akin to a colorful evening weathercast than dramatic moonshot, to me.

So Ms. Earhart is now a member of a fairly long list of people who did it in a number of singles, most of them lighter than hers.  I don't begrudge her that moment of fame - but pardon me, since it has come up and continues, for having my own naive point of view.

How this does go on so... 

I think I've finally tired of the thing (if I weren't already), including the praise and criticism - it just is what it is.  I am glad she's home safely and I wish her well, and same to those others who now get a crack at flying because of what she did - the community should be a bit richer for that, and for them and that result, I'm happy.
- Jeff Neville

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C.W. Herndon

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Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
« Reply #77 on: July 21, 2014, 03:37:19 PM »

Anything else I can help you with?

Thanks Woody.  Your experience is similar to mine (except for the rotorcraft and combat time).  I particularly wondered if you had experience in aircraft analogous to the Pilatus PC-12.  The TurboCommander is pretty close in terms of size, weight, and speed.

I think you'll agree that stepping up from a light complex single like a Cessna 182RG to an airplane like a TurboCommander or a Pilatus is a huge step.  There's more to do, more to keep track of, and everything happens more quickly.  There's something inexorable about a big, fast airplane.  Things are going to happen, whether you're ready for them or not and it takes years of experience to avoid "getting behind the airplane."  I'm sure your T-Bone and Navaho time was good preparation for the Turbo Commander.

I spent many years as an aviation insurance underwriter.  Part of my job was to match airplanes to pilot experience.  If a 400 Private/Instrument pilot had come to me wanting insurance approval to fly a single pilot, 10,000 lb, 9 passenger, 300 mph turboprop I would have told him/her to come back when he/she had 1,500 hours and we'd talk about a FlightSafety program of simulator time and at least 25 hours of dual.

The Turbo Commander was very close in size and performance to the PC-12. My Navaho time actually came after the Turbo Commander time. I went to the Flight Safety course at the Commander factory in Oklahoma City. The aircraft was bought new and delivered to us at the airport in Nashville, Tn. One of the factory instructors flew with me from there to Naples, FL and the salesman we bought the aircraft from came and flew with me for about 20 landings at Naples and I was "turned loose" to fly on my own. I agree that would have been a pretty big jump from a 182RG

I had been flying for about 25 years by that time.
Woody (former 3316R)
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« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 03:45:21 PM by C.W. Herndon »
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
« Reply #78 on: July 21, 2014, 03:44:07 PM »


And while I respect all that, it doesn't stop me, a member of 'the public', from having a valid point of view of my own, however unwashed: this wasn't even a marginally breath-taking feat, it was done with excellent technology, far past that of many who've done the same thing in lesser equipment; it was more a hightone publicity effort - with a particular 'well known' name highly visible on the marquee, than an aviation ground-breaker.  As such it is simply more sound-bite and visual splash than it is record-setting, IMO. 

Could I mount that same effort from scratch?  I lack the funds, smile and good looks, not to mention 'the name' - so, no hope of gaining a foundation to make it happen.  Could I handle the technical end of it with a well-qualified instructor aboard?  In a heart beat, with several times the flight experience of Ms. Earhart (but far less than Woody, for example). 

Now if I did something truly breath-takingly ground-breaking, like 'round the world in 8 days in a balloon-lofted lawn chair' I bet I'd get some attention (and perhaps criticism by others that have no idea how tough it is to do that, ye think?).

So yes, she did it - and used her name to get attention and gain some support for women to learn to fly.  Not bad - just not some great aviation feat, as this 'member of the public' views it.  My point of view isn't a matter of pilot bravado, it is merely a matter of considering how much real pioneering went on: zero.  It is more akin to a colorful evening weathercast than dramatic moonshot, to me.

So Ms. Earhart is now a member of a fairly long list of people who did it in a number of singles, most of them lighter than hers.  I don't begrudge her that moment of fame - but pardon me, since it has come up and continues, for having my own naive point of view.

How this does go on so... 

I think I've finally tired of the thing (if I weren't already), including the praise and criticism - it just is what it is.  I am glad she's home safely and I wish her well, and same to those others who now get a crack at flying because of what she did - the community should be a bit richer for that, and for them and that result, I'm happy.

Amen Jeff.
Woody (former 3316R)
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JNev

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Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
« Reply #79 on: July 21, 2014, 03:51:35 PM »

Sorry, gues it actually did get kind of preachy, didn't it Woody?   ;)
- Jeff Neville

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Tim Mellon

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Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
« Reply #80 on: July 21, 2014, 06:48:48 PM »

I feel it unfair for those who have accomplished less than Ms. Earhart to weigh in with much criticism.

Did you have an instructor with you?  I think anyone on this forum could circumnavigate the globe in a Pilatus PC-12 with Shane Jordan in the right seat.

No, Ric, ATPs don't need instructors. They can, in fact, themselves instruct in type.

When you have circumnavigated the globe with or without instructor, Ric, let me know.



Tim
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« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 06:59:17 PM by Tim Mellon »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
« Reply #81 on: July 21, 2014, 07:07:16 PM »

I just love it when topics of interest are moved from "General Discussion" to "Oblivion".

Well done, Jeff!

Tim
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
« Reply #82 on: July 21, 2014, 07:26:13 PM »

Sorry, gues it actually did get kind of preachy, didn't it Woody?   ;)

Yes, but it was real interesting there for a while. 8)
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JNev

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Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
« Reply #83 on: July 22, 2014, 06:39:30 AM »

I just love it when topics of interest are moved from "General Discussion" to "Oblivion".

Well done, Jeff!

You are welcome, Tim.

I hardly think the other panels are "oblivion". They were created to better organize the site as to topic. As intriguing as "Amelia Rose Earhart" is, she is not really related to the search for Earhart, or the General Discussion thereabout. As a moderator, I took the liberty of moving this string to where I believe it belongs - in a just as easily accessed panel of appropriate topic.

My pleasure.
- Jeff Neville

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Dan Swift

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Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
« Reply #84 on: July 22, 2014, 06:41:39 AM »

I think this horse has died.   
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JNev

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Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
« Reply #85 on: July 22, 2014, 07:42:48 AM »

Something was smelling funny.  Until you mentioned it I thought it was last week's cantaloupe.
- Jeff Neville

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pilotart

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Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
« Reply #86 on: July 22, 2014, 04:14:02 PM »

...ATPs don't need instructors. They can, in fact, themselves instruct in type.
...
An ATP can Only instruct within his/her Airline under Their Air Carrier Certificate Part 121 Certified Training Program.   .

Nearly forty years ago as a newly minted/employed Flight Instructor, I had a most interesting student, a Pan American World Airways Senior Captain who had started with them on the Flying Boats, he even held a FAA Navigators Certificate.

He was approaching his sixtieth birthday and would be forced by law to retire from Pan American.  (Rule has now been relaxed a little and age limit is up to 65 but 'ATP' {Airline Transport Pilot} Certificates are going to become much more difficult to qualify for.)

He did not want to give up his flying and needed to add a Flight Instructor Certificate to continue in the manner he chose, which was working for Gulfstream in Savannah.  They were/are the builders of THE Top of the Line Private/Corporate Globe Circling Luxury Jet and had no age problem with giving him employment.

He made an absolutely fascinating student for me and I only regret missing his invitation to visit him in the cockpit of his Boeing 747 as he prepared for his final Pan American World Flight (Miami to London) when a Charter popped up that I had to fly.

It was some years later, after I had my own 'Air Carrier Certificate' (Part 135 Charter) that I visited with him in Savannah  for him to give me an informal 'check-ride' as a friend.  (FAA Required me to ride with them every six months.)  He was very happy flying Worldwide Flights for Gulfstream.

I absolutely agree that the hardest part of international flying is the red-tape, language and ground aggravation.
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pilotart

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Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
« Reply #87 on: July 22, 2014, 04:32:00 PM »

...
I spent many years as an aviation insurance underwriter.  Part of my job was to match airplanes to pilot experience.  If a 400 Private/Instrument pilot had come to me wanting insurance approval to fly a single pilot, 10,000 lb, 9 passenger, 300 mph turboprop I would have told him/her to come back when he/she had 1,500 hours and we'd talk about a FlightSafety program of simulator time and at least 25 hours of dual.
...
It is absolutely the Insurance Experience/Training Requirements that Rule.

Any descent pilot can get a FAA Certificate to fly Seaplanes in an enjoyable weekend.

He/she would be legal to carry passengers in that class (single or multi-engine sea) as Pilot In Command.

It would not matter how many thousands of hours that pilot had before, he/she would not be allowed to rent a seaplane for solo or passengers until meeting insurance requirements.
Art Johnson
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
« Reply #88 on: July 22, 2014, 05:56:41 PM »

It is absolutely the Insurance Experience/Training Requirements that Rule.

And they're not silly rules set by desk jockeys. Aviation does not have the large numbers needed for underwriters to set requirements based on actuarial tables.  Aviation underwriting/risk assessment is a seat-of-the-pants judgment call made, in most cases, by experienced pilots.  The sales department wants all the business it can get.  The claims department does not want the phone to ring.  The underwriter/risk manager's job is to keep them both happy.  I found that I could deliver excellent loss ratios for the company as long as I was dealing with classes of aircraft in which I had personal experience. 
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
« Reply #89 on: July 23, 2014, 01:10:28 PM »

...ATPs don't need instructors. They can, in fact, themselves instruct in type.
...
An ATP can Only instruct within his/her Airline under Their Air Carrier Certificate Part 121 Certified Training Program.   .

Nearly forty years ago as a newly minted/employed Flight Instructor, I had a most interesting student, a Pan American World Airways Senior Captain who had started with them on the Flying Boats, he even held a FAA Navigators Certificate.

He was approaching his sixtieth birthday and would be forced by law to retire from Pan American.  (Rule has now been relaxed a little and age limit is up to 65 but 'ATP' {Airline Transport Pilot} Certificates are going to become much more difficult to qualify for.)

He did not want to give up his flying and needed to add a Flight Instructor Certificate to continue in the manner he chose, which was working for Gulfstream in Savannah.  They were/are the builders of THE Top of the Line Private/Corporate Globe Circling Luxury Jet and had no age problem with giving him employment.

He made an absolutely fascinating student for me and I only regret missing his invitation to visit him in the cockpit of his Boeing 747 as he prepared for his final
Quote
Section 61.167   Airline transport pilot privileges and limitations.
(a) Privileges. (1) A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate is entitled to the same privileges as a person who holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating.
(2) A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate and has met the aeronautical experience requirements of §61.159 and the age requirements of §61.153(a)(1) of this part may instruct—
(i) Other pilots in air transportation service in  aircraft of the category, class, and type, as applicable, for which the airline transport pilot is rated and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;
(ii) In flight simulators, and flight training devices representing the aircraft referenced in paragraph (a)(2)(i) of this section, when instructing under the provisions of this section and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;
Tim
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