TIGHAR

Amelia Earhart Search Forum => News, Views, Books, Archival Data & Interviews on AE => Topic started by: Dan Swift on November 18, 2013, 08:21:26 PM

Title: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Dan Swift on November 18, 2013, 08:21:26 PM
Probably not new, but I've been following her for a while and it appears her flight is getting more attention. 
Not sure it qualifies as a 'reenactment' of the flight if it's not in an Electra. 

http://theeverygirl.com/feature/im-an-everygirl-amelia-earhart-flying-around-the-world

Interesting nevertheless....to me. 
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: jgf1944 on November 20, 2013, 03:31:25 PM
Dan. That address did not open for me. Is it valid? J.G.F.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Hector M Zapata on November 20, 2013, 05:14:02 PM
http://theeverygirl.com/i%E2%80%99m-an-everygirl%E2%80%A6-my-name-is-amelia-earhart-and-i%E2%80%99m-flying-around-the-world
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Dan Swift on November 21, 2013, 10:05:50 AM
Thanks Hector!
Mine didn't copy right for some reason. 
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Ric Gillespie on June 24, 2014, 08:27:22 AM
I haven't been paying much attention to this. That Pilatus is a lot airplane.  As a former aviation risk manager I have some questions and I'm having a hard time finding the answers. 
•  Is she doing this flight solo?  If not, who and how many are are going with her?
•  What ratings does she hold and and how many total hours PIC does she have? 
•  How much turbine time does she have?
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on June 24, 2014, 09:33:14 AM
The Amelia Project: Amelia Earhart Reenactment website. (http://www.ameliaearhartproject.com/)

The Amelia Project: FAQ. (http://www.ameliaearhartproject.com/faq/)

Will Amelia be piloting the Pilatus PC-12 NG 100% of the time? Yes, Amelia will fly in the left seat of the Pilatus PC-12 NG. Shane Jordan will fly right seat with Amelia, acting as co-pilot and co-adventurer. The live streaming component of the flight, the additional fuel tank on board the plane and the nature of the trip lend to two pilots being better than one. Amelia’s main goal in this trip is to safely and successfully fly around the world. Additionally, Shane and Amelia are great friends, which ensures a lot of fun along the way.


I haven't been following this, either.  If I am reading the countdown timer on the website correctly, she is to take off 1 day, 22 hours, 21 minutes from now.  That would be Thursday, June 26, at 10 AM EDT, I believe.  (I don't trust my powers of addition and subtraction when it comes to times and dates, so please feel free to do the math yourself and post your results here; all are eligible for this contest because the prize has no cash value whatsoever.  You will feel like a winner.  "Virtue is its own reward!")

Her first leg is to England, it seems, if I understand the Live Tracker on the first page of the website (http://www.ameliaearhartproject.com/).  If so, the "reenactment" is in principle, not in the flight plan.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Monty Fowler on June 24, 2014, 09:45:33 AM
I'm wishing her well, but I gotta' tell ya, the national buzz about this is almost non-existant. Total unlike the frenzy when Rutan and Yeager took off on their little round the world jaunt.

LTM, who finds dry paint just as interesting as no paint,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Ric Gillespie on June 24, 2014, 10:19:06 AM
Will Amelia be piloting the Pilatus PC-12 NG 100% of the time? Yes, Amelia will fly in the left seat of the Pilatus PC-12 NG. Shane Jordan will fly right seat with Amelia, acting as co-pilot and co-adventurer.

LOL!  Shane Jordan is NOT her co-pilot.  Shane Jordan is an instructor pilot.  He will be Pilot In Command at all times regardless of what seat he's sitting in. Amelia Rose Earhart's world flight is just a really long flying lesson.


Her first leg is to England, it seems, if I understand the Live Tracker on the first page of the website (http://www.ameliaearhartproject.com/).  If so, the "reenactment" is in principle, not in the flight plan.

So the Earhart flight she's recreating is the 1928 Friendship flight.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: John Wallace on June 24, 2014, 11:26:53 AM
She is not a student pilot but rather a licensed pilot with multiple ratings according to her website. I think she would need a single engine high performance sign-off for the Pilatus. Not sure how that means necessarily that Jordan would have to be Pilot in Command for whole flight.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Ric Gillespie on June 24, 2014, 12:54:19 PM
She is not a student pilot but rather a licensed pilot with multiple ratings according to her website.

She has a Private ticket.  It's not clear what "multiple ratings" she has.  Her cross country flight in a Cirrus was supposedly to "complete her hours for instrument training."  Was she alone on that flight? Did she ever get her Instrument Rating?

I think she would need a single engine high performance sign-off for the Pilatus.

That's right. The Pilatus PC-12 is a 10,000+ lb., 300 mph turboprop.  I can pretty much guarantee that she doesn't have a sign-off for that airplane.  For a pilot with her experience to get qualified would mean many hours of instruction.  How much do you suppose an hour of dual in a PC-12 goes for? Who's gonna pay for that if she's going to have an instructor with her anyway.

Not sure how that means necessarily that Jordan would have to be Pilot in Command for whole flight.

You can't log PIC time in an aircraft for which you are not rated.  If Amelia Rose Earhart is rated to fly the PC-12 solo she can agree with Jordan that she will be PIC for a given flight.  I think the chances that she is rated in the PC-12 are nil.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: John Wallace on June 24, 2014, 02:15:44 PM
Thanks for the reply. I suspect she does have the sign off. According to her bio, she has already flown the same type Pilatus from Switzerland to Colorado. She was also getting her commercial rating in a Cessna 182 RG which is considered a high performance aircraft.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: JNev on June 24, 2014, 02:49:49 PM
Who cares if she is or isn't qualified?  Like her name sake (to whom she is apparently not kin), the flight she is undertaking is fairly pointless, having  been done many time in similar or lesser equipment.

I see very little parallel to the original flight other than she seems to be inderested in having her name in the history books.  Charming though, I'll give her that...
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: James G. Stoveken on June 24, 2014, 03:27:27 PM
I'll give her credit for figuring out a way to get someone else to pay for her adventure.  And for having nice hair.

Transitioning from a Cessna 172 to a PC-12 is no different than going from gokarts on the boardwalk to Formula 1 cars at Monaco.  Happens all the time.  It's not like she's learning to land a taildragger or something.   :D

Excerpted from a blog that can be found here...
 (http://flightclub.jalopnik.com/meet-amelia-rose-earhart-the-woman-who-plans-to-fly-ar-1587268027/1588130701/+matthardigree)
How many hours do you have in the cockpit?
I think I'm coming up on 400 now, so not much at all. There's no way that I could qualify to fly the PC-12 around the world by myself yet. That's why having Shane (Shane Jordan, Pilatus insturctor) there is a huge part of this.

I'll be doing probably 90 percent of the flying, but some of the legs are eight, nine hours long. So there are times when you just need to get up and stretch your legs.


Finally, when CNN asked about the cost, Amelia replied "Over the past year and a half, I would say close to $2 million is probably the total value of the trip."  If she really wanted to honor her namesake she should've underwritten Niku Vlll.  'Course we all know how that works out.  Ric would probably be logging more court time.   ;)

Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Ric Gillespie on June 24, 2014, 05:20:02 PM
She was also getting her commercial rating in a Cessna 182 RG which is considered a high performance aircraft.

I used to own a Cessna 182RG.  The go-cart/Formula analogy is a good one.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: JNev on June 25, 2014, 05:49:10 AM
'Rose' has a surprising amount of frank humility for someone with this ambition, but '90%' might be an ambitious number. 

Hats off to her, but one continues to wonder, what is the point?  I thought she was not really kin to Earhart, but this kind of ambition must be born of DNA...  ::)

Well, an Earhart by any other name would smell as sweet... nothing like a name to petal (sic)...
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Ric Gillespie on June 25, 2014, 11:48:03 AM
The "real" Amelia Earhart was dedicated to showing that women can do what men can do.  Her accomplishments were genuine. She flew the airplane - sometimes not well, but she demonstrated that she had the courage to try.
Other women who have recreated her world flight have entirely missed the point of what AE was trying to do. In 1937 Amelia Mary Earhart twice tried to fly around the world without bringing along a man to fly the airplane. She failed both times. In 1967 Anne Pelegrino flew around the world in a Lockheed 10A with a man who could actually fly the airplane.  In 1997 Linda Finch flew around the world in a Lockheed 10E with a man who could actually fly the airplane. Now Amelia Rose Earhart will fly around the world with a man who can actually fly the airplane. 
If you're looking for a woman who showed that women can do what men can do, the woman you're looking for is Gerry Mock who circled the globe solo in a Cessna 180.

Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on June 25, 2014, 01:27:23 PM
If you're looking for a woman who showed that women can do what men can do, the woman you're looking for is Gerry Mock who circled the globe solo in a Cessna 180.

Wikipedia: Jerrie Mock. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerrie_Mock)
Honorable mention has to go to Jean Batten, "Garbo of the Skies." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Batten)  I read of her exploits when TIGHAR sent me to New Zealand in 2003.


Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Ric Gillespie on June 25, 2014, 01:40:38 PM
Beryl Markham was the real deal also.  Her book East To The Dawn is a classic.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on June 25, 2014, 02:25:45 PM
Beryl Markham was the real deal also.  Her book East To The Dawn is a classic.

Hmm.  Wikipedia's article on Markham  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryl_Markham)suggests that her masterpiece was West with the Night.

My impression is that East to the Dawn (http://www.amazon.com/East-Dawn-Life-Amelia-Earhart/dp/B002U0KOJ0) is about Amelia Earhart, another aviatrix entirely.   ::)
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: JNev on June 25, 2014, 02:54:49 PM
The "real deal" is hard to beat - and won't be, it seems: it's been done.  Thanks for that enlightenment.

I don't really mean to demean Earhart - and I guess there was merit in her intent, but as you pointed out... so maybe the current 'Earhart' wishes to prove that 'an Earhart can circle the globe', although 'manned up' as must be, perhaps.  I think it is the vagueness of these intentions that leaves me a bit clouded at times.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Steve Lyle Gunderson on June 25, 2014, 04:49:36 PM
This may be one of Amelia Rose's intention's (http://www.ameliaearhartproject.com/foundation/).
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Ric Gillespie on June 25, 2014, 04:54:36 PM
Beryl Markham was the real deal also.  Her book East To The Dawn is a classic.

Hmm.  Wikipedia's article on Markham  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryl_Markham)suggests that her masterpiece was West with the Night.

My impression is that East to the Dawn (http://www.amazon.com/East-Dawn-Life-Amelia-Earhart/dp/B002U0KOJ0) is about Amelia Earhart, another aviatrix entirely.   ::)

My mistake.  You're absolutely right.  East to the Dawn is Susan Butlers bio of AE.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Mark Appel on June 26, 2014, 02:37:08 PM
I work just a few miles from North Oakland... Amelia Rose just departed. Here's a local article with a gallery of photos FYI...

http://www.contracostatimes.com/news/ci_26035812/oakland-amelia-rose-earhart-embarks-around-world-flight
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Ric Gillespie on June 26, 2014, 03:55:05 PM
I work just a few miles from North Oakland... Amelia Rose just departed. Here's a local article with a gallery of photos FYI...

http://www.contracostatimes.com/news/ci_26035812/oakland-amelia-rose-earhart-embarks-around-world-flight

The BS keeps getting deeper.  When asked what was her longest flight so far she said the flight from Switzerland to Colorado (presumably to position the Pilatus from the factory for the world flight).  She didn't happen to mention that she was not the Pilot in Command - so the article in the Contra cos times reports:
"Her longest solo flight was from Switzerland to Colorado, but after a year and a half of planning, she said she is prepared for the grueling 28,000-mile trip,...". 
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Monty Fowler on June 26, 2014, 03:59:48 PM
Now, now, Mr. Gillespie - don't you know that all the world is perception?

I'd say that Amelia Rose has learned that lesson rather well from Amelia Mary.

LTM, who knows a rose by any other name,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Monty Fowler on June 27, 2014, 07:50:27 AM
And I will say this about Amelia Rose's trip - that sleek little turboprop looks a LOT more comfortable/quieter than Amelia and Fred's Electra.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: JNev on June 27, 2014, 12:10:13 PM
Maybe Monty's got a point; maybe we should all remember that many of us have our own flights of fancy and tend to want others to buy-into them, especially when they cost so damn much to give wing to.

Perception is the mother of something, it seems.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Ric Gillespie on June 27, 2014, 12:25:30 PM
I've been a bit horrified by the viciousness of the responses to my Facebook postings about Amelia Rose's misleading hype.  I'm torn between providing documentation that what I've said is true or just dropping it.  The latter is probably the wiser move but it's hard to sit back and watch somebody take the public for a ride.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Martin X. Moleski, SJ on June 27, 2014, 12:46:24 PM
I've been a bit horrified by the viciousness of the responses to my Facebook postings about Amelia Rose's misleading hype.  I'm torn between providing documentation that what I've said is true or just dropping it.  The latter is probably the wiser move but it's hard to sit back and watch somebody take the public for a ride.

People love being taken for a ride--where would the midway be without that thrill?

I think it is probably in TIGHAR's best interest to cheer her on, wish her well, and welcome any of her audience who happen to browse over thisaway. 

There is a slogan about Three Cs from a 12-Step recovery group: we did not Cause her, we cannot Cure her, we cannot Control her.  If we are friendly, we might be able to Cash in on her notoriety.   8)
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: JNev on June 27, 2014, 12:56:45 PM
Words of wisdom, Marty...

I am reminded, as I sit in my little glass house, that although one man's (or woman's) ride may be another's folly, I'm not chartered to officially comment in the public's interest most of the time.

Any hatefulness Ric got wasn't deserved, of course; but maybe TIGHAR's charter isn't perceived to reach into that of ombudsmanship for this sort of thing.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Ric Gillespie on June 27, 2014, 12:57:36 PM
I think it is probably in TIGHAR's best interest to cheer her on, wish her well, and welcome any of her audience who happen to browse over thisaway. 

There is a slogan about Three Cs from a 12-Step recovery group: we did not Cause her, we cannot Cure her, we cannot Control her.  If we are friendly, we might be able to Cash in on her notoriety.   8)

If I was able to be that cynical I'd still be in the insurance business.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: JNev on June 27, 2014, 01:05:11 PM
I think it is probably in TIGHAR's best interest to cheer her on, wish her well, and welcome any of her audience who happen to browse over thisaway. 

There is a slogan about Three Cs from a 12-Step recovery group: we did not Cause her, we cannot Cure her, we cannot Control her.  If we are friendly, we might be able to Cash in on her notoriety.   8)

If I was able to be that cynical I'd still be in the insurance business.

Maybe one way to look at it is 'that's nice'; one way to look at any potential benefit from the event (not likely) is 'that's nice', and be willing to tip the hat to someone with a rare name who did make an effort to do something beyond the daily pale.  Y'never know, and I'm not sure being nice to someone doing something slightly vacuous constitutes collusion.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Ric Gillespie on June 27, 2014, 01:25:37 PM
Y'never know, and I'm not sure being nice to someone doing something slightly vacuous constitutes collusion.

I have no problem with the vacuousness of what she's doing, but to me she's a bit like the people who falsely claim to have medals or to have been a SEAL.  She is misleading people into thinking that she is piloting an airplane around the world when in fact she is going for a ride around the world.  Her accomplishment is putting together the sponsorship, and at that she seems to be brilliant.  But as for the flying, she has not done the hard work to gain the proficiency to do what she is leading people to think that she's doing.  She says that she'll be setting the record for the youngest woman to fly around the world.  Total BS.  You can't possibly set a record in an airplane you're not qualified to fly on a flight for which you are not Pilot in Command.
Amelia Mary was not above stretching the truth, but she did her own flying. 
End of rant.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Bruce Thomas on June 27, 2014, 03:36:21 PM
"I was just baggage, like a sack of potatoes," said the first woman to fly across the Atlantic.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: JNev on June 27, 2014, 04:11:11 PM
"I was just baggage, like a sack of potatoes," said the first woman to fly across the Atlantic.

As I read Ric's comments those very words came to mind.  Chalk one up for the original Earhart for honesty...

I certainly respect Ric's view of the thing; I suspect history will too - such claims seldom escape the ax of the historian.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Monty Fowler on June 29, 2014, 03:19:55 PM
Kenny Rogers perhaps said it best - You got to know when to hold 'em, and know when to fold 'em.

I think in this instance, it's folding time ... otherwise it's akin to trying to build a seawall on the beach with a teaspoon, and the tsunami of public perception is just getting higher and higher.

Or so it seems to me.

LTM, who knows a little about letting go of your dreams,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Ric Gillespie on June 29, 2014, 04:29:22 PM
Kenny Rogers perhaps said it best - You got to know when to hold 'em, and know when to fold 'em.

I've said my piece.  We have other fish to fry.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 09, 2014, 04:16:49 PM
Randy Conrad posted:


Amelia's Namesake reaches Howland Island!!!
« on: Today at 04:06:16 PM »

Just wanted to share some information that Amelia's namesake is embarking on Howland Island as we speak! Kinda gives you goosebumps! Go to www.ameliaearhartproject.com for live tracking! Congratulations Amelia!!!
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Jeff Lange on July 10, 2014, 06:10:39 AM
Embarking on? Surely you mean flying over, not actually landing on Howland. Last I knew that strip was not useable and not maintained at all, but of course I may have that wrong.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 10, 2014, 06:28:25 AM
Embarking on? Surely you mean flying over, not actually landing on Howland. Last I knew that strip was not useable and not maintained at all, but of course I may have that wrong.

Any attempt to land an airplane on Howland Island would result in another TIGHAR project.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: JNev on July 10, 2014, 08:00:37 AM
Embarking on? Surely you mean flying over, not actually landing on Howland. Last I knew that strip was not useable and not maintained at all, but of course I may have that wrong.

Any attempt to land an airplane on Howland Island would result in another TIGHAR project.

Is the gound that rough, or is it the birds?

Probably also draw the violator a fine, as well - protected area.

In any case, great the lady made it over that hallowed spot; too bad couldn't lay a wreath at the Earhart Light (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Earhart_Light.jpg).
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 10, 2014, 09:40:04 AM
Is the gound that rough, or is it the birds?

Both.  You could probably land a Cub with big bush-flying tires but it would tricky getting there.

Probably also draw the violator a fine, as well - protected area.

No doubt.


Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Dan Swift on July 11, 2014, 08:42:16 AM
Passing over Howland.  This was as close as she got....or should have gotten.  Probably closer than AE and FN got now that I think about it. 
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: John Ousterhout on July 11, 2014, 09:11:35 AM
I'd love to see an Itasca-sized ship photo-shopped by the island in appropriate scale.  You can already see a lot of detail on the island, giving an impression of just how small it is.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Dan Swift on July 11, 2014, 11:33:33 AM
Well, she's off Hawaii and headed for Oakland, CA.  Assuming arrival this evening. 
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Bruce Thomas on July 13, 2014, 11:33:40 AM
http://blog.sfgate.com/stew/2014/07/11/amelia-rose-earhart-completes-round-the-world-flight/?cmpid=hp-hc-bayarea#25033101=0

Just wanted to share this story ... this was the most related current thread I could think of. This young girl just completed a AE type round the world trip, in honor of AE. She is also named AE.

I hope tighar gets in touch with her, to extend a membership (maybe you already have, and this is old news).  She would make a nice poster-girl for tighar publicity. I know tighar is a serious organization with a serious agenda, but hey, a little publicity never hurts. And note, that although she had a co-pilot etc. she did make a huge effort with this trip, and it was not just a photo-op. This is a genuine accomplishment.

imho
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Oskar Erich Heinrich Haberlandt on July 15, 2014, 08:30:07 AM
I think, Amelia Rose Earhart did a great job. Even in 2014, the world flight was a big challenge. Congratulations!
Oskar
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Richard Lyon Metzger on July 15, 2014, 02:37:02 PM
http://www.dailyrepublic.com/usworld/amelia-earhart-namesake-completes-global-flight/
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Monty Fowler on July 15, 2014, 04:46:43 PM
She gets a thumb's up from me, because, 1) Anything that promotes general aviation is good, 2) Anything that gets young people interested in the sciences is good, and 3) She did it with style, al la her namesake.

That, plus she made it!

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Bill Mangus on July 16, 2014, 07:15:22 AM
. . .and then there's this, which has not received anywhere near the press coverage Amelia Rose Earhart's effort has.

http://www.10news.com/news/19-year-old-pilot-matt-guthmiller-sets-new-world-record-for-flight-07142014

Bravo to both.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 16, 2014, 08:06:17 AM
Nobody wants to hear this but I'm going to say it again anyway.
Amelia Rose Earhart grossly mislead the public for her own self-aggrandizement. The real Amelia Earhart often did much the same thing but at least she was nominally qualified in the airplanes she flew. AE did her own flying. Sometimes not well, but her accomplishments were genuine.
Amelia Rose's faux-world flight does keep her namesake's name before the public but what she did is the antithesis of everything TIGHAR stands for.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: JNev on July 17, 2014, 05:52:20 AM
It is what it is.

Meanwhile, for some perspective on the feat of globe-girdling flight -

At least 186 small single engine planes (only three of which were turbines) have been flown around the world.  107 of those were solo and quite a few of them were women pilots, including some solo flights.  The youngest SOLO flight was by a 19 year old fellow in 2013.

http://www.earthrounders.com/cgi/singles.php (http://www.earthrounders.com/cgi/singles.php)

A notable was -

2004   Polly Vacher   UK   Piper Dakota       G-FRGN   

WEST   First woman solo over 7 continents
First woman solo over the North Pole
First solo in single over 7 continents
FAI Circumnavigator Badge

The ages aren't given, but somehow it seems that Amelia Rose Earhart was probably not the youngest female pilot to fly around the world.

http://www.earthrounders.com/ (http://www.earthrounders.com/)

What's in a name?  Would a Rose by any other... and there seem to be flowers of many colors after all. 

That she raised money for girls to fly is not a bad thing, nice.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: pilotart on July 17, 2014, 11:37:45 AM
I only saw her flight website after a link was posted here about passing Howland, it was just a nice map showing their progress with no live video seen.

What strikes out to me was her Publicity Engine compared to the teenager's (far more impressive) Solo World flight from the link a few posts before (http://www.10news.com/news/19-year-old-pilot-matt-guthmiller-sets-new-world-record-for-flight-07142014), Amelia and her CoPilot passed over him during their trip.  He had a headstart but Amelia's Pilatus was much faster and higher flying than his Bonanza.

A very Big advantage for a beautiful TV Personality named Amelia Earhart, but I give her a lot of credit for her promotion of the trip and especially her support for young female pilots. 

What caught my attention the most was a story I was led to from Jeffrey Neville's link:

http://www18.tok2.com/home/soar/med/pc-12web1.pdf

This related to an AOPA Japan World Flight with a fleet of single engine planes ending with the loss of a Pilatus PC-12 (same model as Amelia Rose's) into the Pacific Ocean.

This was a catastrophic failure of the Pilatus' Pratt & Whitney PT-6A Turboprop engine during high altitude cruise.  This was followed by a depleted battery 'dead-stick' glide down to an ocean with a 100' ceiling and 15 knot winds with a very successful ditching into 10' waved seas.  The four occupants were rescued by a Russian Freighter after 15 hours in a liferaft dressed in survival suits.  Their Pilatus PC-12 had remained afloat for several hours but then sank, removing potential for investigating the exact cause of that engine failure.

The Pratt & Whitney PT-6A Turboprop (powers the Pilatus as well as most other Turboprop aircraft) has such an excellent reputation for reliability that former restrictions for Passenger-for-Hire in single-engine aircraft in poor visibility have been lifted worldwide.  Over-water Passenger-for-Hire single engine restrictions would still apply.

In 5,000+ hours of flight with PT-6A engines I have experienced two Pratt & Whitney PT-6A Turboprop engine failures.  First one was just a simple loss of a cotter-pin rolling the engine back to idle, with two engines it was no big deal.  My Second PT-6A loss was a catastrophic disintegration from a CT blade failure with a spectacular night show of fire outside the cabin from the prop to the tail.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Dan Swift on July 18, 2014, 08:06:51 AM
"Amelia Rose Earhart grossly mislead the public for her own self-aggrandizement."

Ric, not sure how she misled the public (unless you are referring to the PIC issue again), but I still had rather embrace her rather than degrade her.  As mentioned in an earlier post regarding her "publicity machine".....no doubt.....have you looked at her.....I bet she can raise some money!  She's pretty easy on the eyes.  Rather her be a friend to Tighar's cause, and take a personal interest in it (that publicity thing), than.........
Enough said by me too. 
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Oskar Erich Heinrich Haberlandt on July 18, 2014, 01:52:00 PM
Dan,
I think you are right. Would'nt it be smart to invite Amelia Rose Earhart to join TIGHAR? Maybe she's able to find sponsors...

Ric,
I don't really understand what you mean by saying: "...what she did is the antithesis of everything TIGHAR stands for."
Oskar, #4421A
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Dan Swift on July 18, 2014, 01:54:52 PM
Offer her an honorary membership.  Maybe even a reasonable level.   Get her, AND HER FRIENDS, involved in finding "her namesake". 
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Monty Fowler on July 18, 2014, 03:00:33 PM
*points up* What Dan said. Mellon has tried to poison the well. This might be a good antidote.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Dan Swift on July 21, 2014, 07:28:14 AM
So she will endorse Tighar and maybe assist in it's efforts regarding AE.   Nothing ventured....nothing gained. 
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: JNev on July 21, 2014, 09:35:22 AM
Seems like two very different ventures to me, what 'Rose' did, and what TIGHAR does, seemingly tied by a name... but maybe not so close in mission after all.  Maybe that's where it should just be left to lay.

I hope we see the day when we're not concerned so much with how sweet the well water once was not.  Too much has gone into this to let the negatives take it down.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Dan Swift on July 21, 2014, 09:42:20 AM
I only refer to her obvious ability to raise funds and attract sponsors.  That is the potential value and possible common ground.   
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: JNev on July 21, 2014, 09:58:19 AM
I only refer to her obvious ability to raise funds and attract sponsors.  That is the potential value and possible common ground.   

Still seems like two very different ventures to me, despite the 'common' name - sorry. 
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: jdclassic03 on July 21, 2014, 10:33:20 AM
Was there a post that was removed??
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 21, 2014, 10:34:27 AM
I only refer to her obvious ability to raise funds and attract sponsors.  That is the potential value and possible common ground.   

I have nothing further to say about Amelia Rose Earhart except to point out that her fund raising challenge is vastly different from ours.  She had a no-risk proposition for prospective backers.  Her name, looks, and charm guaranteed media attention and the flight, using an advanced high-performance turboprop flown by a high-time professional pilot, was as risk-free as a circumnavigation could be. Success was a slam dunk.  In that sense, the project was a stroke of genius.
Our project is not risk-free.  To construct an analogy; we have tried to fly around the world ten times and haven't made it.  Each time we've gotten a little further but each time it gets more expensive.  This time we think we can make it all the way 'round but it's far from a slam dunk.  Finding sponsors in today's world who are not risk-averse is quite a challenge.  How much luck to you think Amelia Rose would have had raising the money to fly around the world if she was doing it herself and had tried ten times?
When we find the Electra and can produce smoking-gun proof (not imagined shapes in coral) I expect we'll have no trouble finding sponsors to do the recovery and conservation despite my name,looks, and charm. That will be the slam dunk that sponsors are looking for.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 21, 2014, 10:37:43 AM
Was there a post that was removed??

Yes.  I moderated myself and removed an imprudent posting.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: C.W. Herndon on July 21, 2014, 10:40:22 AM
As a longtime pilot with an ATP ( Airline Transport Pilot) Certificate, I am having considerable difficulty understanding some of the negative comments that have been made about Amelia Rose. If I understand things properly, the problems seem to center around the question of whether or not she was qualified to act as pilot in command of the aircraft. According to this article (http://www.ameliaearhartproject.com/about-amelia/) she has a Private Pilot Certificate with an Instrument Rating. Since she has previous experience flying a Cessna 182RG I would assume she has been signed off to fly "complex aircraft' although this is not even a factor here. Her Flight Instructor, who was also her co-pilot on the flight (see last part of the above reference), could indorse her for complex aircraft including the Pilatus PC-12, by signing her off in her log book at any time before or during the flight. According to this article from Flying Magazine (http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/turboprops/pilatus-pc-12-versus-world?page=0,2) the maximum take-off weight for the PC-12 is 10,450 pounds which is well below the 12,500 pounds required for a Type Certificate which involves a more complex certification process.

This article from AOPA (the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association) outlines the requirements for flying as the PIC (Pilot in Command) (http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/Learn-to-Fly/Aviation-Subject-Report-Logging-Pilot-in-Command-PIC-Time.aspx) of an aircraft as well as logging PIC time. After a careful reading of these documents and having a first hand knowledge of this aircraft and the requirements for flying it, the major sticking point seems to be, obtaining enough PIC time in the aircraft to satisfy the insurance companies, not the FAA which is most likely why Mr. Jordon went along. According to the write-up about him in the first reference above, he, apparently spent a considerable amount of time flying this way. While I have not read them all here is a Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amelia_Rose_Earhart) with a story about Amelia Rose and a long list of references for those who might want to read more.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: JNev on July 21, 2014, 11:26:29 AM
Good observations, Woody, and I respect those.  It has been explained to me when I was flying with an instructor that I was, as a qualified pilot in-type, considered PIC (when acting as PIC).

One can make what one will of Amelia Rose Earhart's feat, as one chooses, that's for sure.  It can be boiled down to less-than truly 'Earhart heroic' easily enough - the machinery and modern facilities mean there is no real comparison, except by name - should one choose to be excited by that. 

Another way to look at it in the modern corporate sense is that a very fine product was given a world stage, with a very recognizable name - whether regarded 'at the wheel' or aboard as a 'sack of potatoes' (observer's choice) - and it was successful.  Regardless of how I might see that, now a number of young ladies will also benefit from a fair scholership toward flight education - which is a positive.

So Pilatus wins, 10 young ladies win, and I suppose this latter-day Earhart saw a dream come true - however I might choose to look at what she did.  Maybe there is also a net benefit in having the public realize that "one a them Piper Cubs (sic) made it all the way around th' world without falling" and our image climbs a notch - rah.

Do I think she stacks-up to the original AE in terms of raw, gut effort?  No way - just my personal opinion - although in another way, I'm not sure the motives were so different.  Do I think there was good in it?  See above - it's the world we live in and that's how some things seem to be packaged, whether it meets a pure notion or not.  But for sure, she did not strap an L10E onto her backside and risk the open oceans with 1930's technology propelling and guiding her through a hostile back-water world.  Somehow I doubt the public missed that point, at least to some degree - times have changed much.

Nothing new in my points here, I realize.  I guess it comes down to how the individual sees it.  I guess the press got excited about a 'namesake' making the flight (I really did not follow the details), but I always take the press with a few grains of salt anyway (seldom get my news there).  Frankly I'm not overly impressed or excited about her success because it's a bit ho-hum to me in terms of 'pushing the envelope' (she did not push it at all, this was easily done in the craft she chose), but I don't begrudge her.  And she did do something I haven't done (including sending 10 young women $4,400 in scholarships). 

I don't expect most of the public to get the real limits of what was done, nor do I expect them to listen to those who would educate them - or really, honestly see the point in doing so.  Too much else to do and they won't listen much anyway...  Nor do I see the public tossing ticker-tape over it (or is that something else I missed as I eschewed the press for one more day of my life?).

So, blah...  :P

Anyway, I'm glad she's home safe, and I wish her well.  Seems like a nice girl and I'm sure she's a good pilot or Pilatus wouldn't have risked all this, instructor along or not.  I'm sure it won't hurt her career, and maybe she will have the poise and integrity to handle her success in this effort with grace and within the honest context of what it really was, and was not, as the years come and go.

But is an Earhart an Earhart, by any other name?  As different as Hank Arron was from the Babe, I think - something interesting happened, but the playing field was very different.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 21, 2014, 11:40:33 AM
As a longtime pilot with an ATP ( Airline Transport Pilot) Certificate, I am having considerable difficulty understanding some of the negative comments that have been made about Amelia Rose. If I understand things properly, the problems seem to center around the question of whether or not she was qualified to act as pilot in command of the aircraft. According to this article (http://www.ameliaearhartproject.com/about-amelia/) she has a Private Pilot Certificate with an Instrument Rating. Since she has previous experience flying a Cessna 182RG I would assume she has been signed off to fly "complex aircraft' although this is not even a factor here. Her Flight Instructor, who was also her co-pilot on the flight (see last part of the above reference), could indorse her for complex aircraft including the Pilatus PC-12, by signing her off in her log book at any time before or during the flight. According to this article from Flying Magazine (http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/turboprops/pilatus-pc-12-versus-world?page=0,2) the maximum take-off weight for the PC-12 is 10,450 pounds which is well below the 12,500 pounds required for a Type Certificate which involves a more complex certification process.


Woody, let me ask you a question.  You're a long time pilot with an ATP.  What types of aircraft have you flown?
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Dan Swift on July 21, 2014, 11:45:30 AM
Ric,
My apologies!  Case closed!  I didn't mean to push you buttons in the wrong way. 
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: C.W. Herndon on July 21, 2014, 12:54:58 PM
Woody, let me ask you a question.  You're a long time pilot with an ATP.  What types of aircraft have you flown?

Ric, since you asked, here is at least a partial list:

Airplanes
Aeronca 7AC, 7EC
Beechcraft 36A, 55(Army T42A), Twin Bonanza (ARMY U8D)
de Havilland DHC2 (Army U6A)
Cessna 150, 152, 172, 175 182, 210; Army L19/O1 Bird Dog
Piper J3, PA-28-180, PA31-325, PA31P-425, PA-44
TurboCommander AC690D

Helicopters

Bell 47, Bell 206BIII,LII; Army OH13E,G; UH-1A,B,C,D,H; AH1G
Hughes OH-6A

I have the following certificates:

ATP Airplane Multi Engine Land
Comm Pilot Airplane Single Engine Land, Rotorcraft Helicopter
Instrument

I got my Student License when I was 16.
I got my Private License through the Army ROTC Flight Program.
I got my Commercial, ASEL,AMEL Rotorcraft Helicopter, Instrument through the US Army Flight School at Fort Rucker Alabama in 1968.
I got my ATP in 1990

I flew 750 hours of combat time in Huey helicopters in Vietnam in 1968-69.

Anything else I can help you with?
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: JNev on July 21, 2014, 02:12:15 PM
I knew about the Huey time, Woody, and the TurboCommander... but -

Impressive! 

And again, thank you for your service, Woody.  I know that Huey time in particular did not come easy.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Tim Mellon on July 21, 2014, 02:34:45 PM
As a longtime pilot with an ATP ( Airline Transport Pilot) Certificate, I am having considerable difficulty understanding some of the negative comments that have been made about Amelia Rose.

I agree with Woody. And it's not just a question of ratings or experience in types.

Flying internationally is a whole different ballgame from Sunday flights to enjoy pancake breakfasts 50 miles away in your 172.

International flying requires stricter adherence to procedures, very careful route planning (especially within Europe), frequent position reporting when out of radar contact (which is most of the time), ability to understand the most contorted forms of the English language when you are tired and haggard, dealing with handling agents some of them lazy and/or unscrupulous, and often overcoming physical disabilities brought on from the consumption of "foods" at the various places you stop to rest and refuel.

Oceanic flight is a specialty unto itself. Careful consideration must be given to winds aloft, fuel consumption and points-of-no-return. Survival equipment must be appropriate and its use properly understood. I have just completed my 100th Trans-Atlantic flight: every successful crossing is worthy of a small prayer upon completion.

So Amelia Rose Earhart may not be the last word in aviation, but as someone who has circumnavigated the Earth twice, I feel it unfair for those who have accomplished less than Ms. Earhart to weigh in with much criticism.

Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Dan Swift on July 21, 2014, 02:52:16 PM
Damn Woody!! 
Impressive indeed. 
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: C.W. Herndon on July 21, 2014, 02:53:49 PM
I knew about the Huey time, Woody, and the TurboCommander... but -

Impressive! 

And again, thank you for your service, Woody.  I know that Huey time in particular did not come easy.

Thanks Jeff. Much of the Huey time was very low level, 50 feet AGL or less. Very stressful, especially when you never knew when someone was going to shoot at you. Not much cover in a Huey and you remain a target much too long when 90 to 100 knots is the fastest you can fly!
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 21, 2014, 02:53:58 PM
Anything else I can help you with?

Thanks Woody.  Your experience is similar to mine (except for the rotorcraft and combat time).  I particularly wondered if you had experience in aircraft analogous to the Pilatus PC-12.  The TurboCommander is pretty close in terms of size, weight, and speed.

I think you'll agree that stepping up from a light complex single like a Cessna 182RG to an airplane like a TurboCommander or a Pilatus is a huge step.  There's more to do, more to keep track of, and everything happens more quickly.  There's something inexorable about a big, fast airplane.  Things are going to happen, whether you're ready for them or not and it takes years of experience to avoid "getting behind the airplane."  I'm sure your T-Bone and Navaho time was good preparation for the Turbo Commander.

I spent many years as an aviation insurance underwriter.  Part of my job was to match airplanes to pilot experience.  If a 400 Private/Instrument pilot had come to me wanting insurance approval to fly a single pilot, 10,000 lb, 9 passenger, 300 mph turboprop I would have told him/her to come back when he/she had 1,500 hours and we'd talk about a FlightSafety program of simulator time and at least 25 hours of dual.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 21, 2014, 03:00:32 PM
I feel it unfair for those who have accomplished less than Ms. Earhart to weigh in with much criticism.

Did you have an instructor with you?  I think anyone on this forum could circumnavigate the globe in a Pilatus PC-12 with Shane Jordan in the right seat.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: C.W. Herndon on July 21, 2014, 03:20:09 PM

I agree with Woody. And it's not just a question of ratings or experience in types.

Flying internationally is a whole different ballgame from Sunday flights to enjoy pancake breakfasts 50 miles away in your 172.

International flying requires stricter adherence to procedures, very careful route planning (especially within Europe), frequent position reporting when out of radar contact (which is most of the time), ability to understand the most contorted forms of the English language when you are tired and haggard, dealing with handling agents some of them lazy and/or unscrupulous, and often overcoming physical disabilities brought on from the consumption of "foods" at the various places you stop to rest and refuel.

Oceanic flight is a specialty unto itself. Careful consideration must be given to winds aloft, fuel consumption and points-of-no-return. Survival equipment must be appropriate and its use properly understood. I have just completed my 100th Trans-Atlantic flight: every successful crossing is worthy of a small prayer upon completion.

So Amelia Rose Earhart may not be the last word in aviation, but as someone who has circumnavigated the Earth twice, I feel it unfair for those who have accomplished less than Ms. Earhart to weigh in with much criticism.

Thanks Tim. I know the feeling. I spent 3 years flying in Germany (Berlin) during my Army service. I used to tell my wife that if you could understand a German, speaking English over an aircraft radio, you could understand most anything!

The time that I was there was during the "Cold War" while there was still a wall around Berlin (we still were awarded the WW2 Army of occupation medal for our service there). We could only fly twin engine aircraft in and out of Berlin so it was always the U-8 that we used for those missions. The air corridor we flew was 110nm long and we were always met by Migs when we returned. Very interesting.

I also spent a year flying Bell 206B and 206L helicopters in the Gulf of Mexico transporting crew members for the oil platforms to and from our home base and between platforms. It was VFR only flying but that also gets very interesting when the visibility is 3miles and you are flying to a platform that is 90nm offshore.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: JNev on July 21, 2014, 03:36:07 PM
As a longtime pilot with an ATP ( Airline Transport Pilot) Certificate, I am having considerable difficulty understanding some of the negative comments that have been made about Amelia Rose.

I agree with Woody. And it's not just a question of ratings or experience in types.

Flying internationally is a whole different ballgame from Sunday flights to enjoy pancake breakfasts 50 miles away in your 172.

International flying requires stricter adherence to procedures, very careful route planning (especially within Europe), frequent position reporting when out of radar contact (which is most of the time), ability to understand the most contorted forms of the English language when you are tired and haggard, dealing with handling agents some of them lazy and/or unscrupulous, and often overcoming physical disabilities brought on from the consumption of "foods" at the various places you stop to rest and refuel.

Oceanic flight is a specialty unto itself. Careful consideration must be given to winds aloft, fuel consumption and points-of-no-return. Survival equipment must be appropriate and its use properly understood. I have just completed my 100th Trans-Atlantic flight: every successful crossing is worthy of a small prayer upon completion.

So Amelia Rose Earhart may not be the last word in aviation, but as someone who has circumnavigated the Earth twice, I feel it unfair for those who have accomplished less than Ms. Earhart to weigh in with much criticism.

Woody's got a head full of good sense and years and many hours of great experience.  I for one have no problem with his point of view and deeply respect it; I also do not approach it in terms of my own experience.

As to criticism of Ms. Earhart, I realize you weren't necessarily pointing beyond Ric, perhaps.  But for the record, I don't feel so critical as I do underwhelmed, in terms of this having been a majestic feat, Tim.  I'm happy for your experience and I'm sure that gives you a perspective which I cannot possess.  I am acquainted with the transport pilot's credo on Atlantic crossings of "please Lord, don't let me... " - and it's over my head. 

And while I respect all that, it doesn't stop me, a member of 'the public', from having a valid point of view of my own, however unwashed: this wasn't even a marginally breath-taking feat, it was done with excellent technology, far past that of many who've done the same thing in lesser equipment; it was more a hightone publicity effort - with a particular 'well known' name highly visible on the marquee, than an aviation ground-breaker.  As such it is simply more sound-bite and visual splash than it is record-setting, IMO. 

Could I mount that same effort from scratch?  I lack the funds, smile and good looks, not to mention 'the name' - so, no hope of gaining a foundation to make it happen.  Could I handle the technical end of it with a well-qualified instructor aboard?  In a heart beat, with several times the flight experience of Ms. Earhart (but far less than Woody, for example). 

Now if I did something truly breath-takingly ground-breaking, like 'round the world in 8 days in a balloon-lofted lawn chair' I bet I'd get some attention (and perhaps criticism by others that have no idea how tough it is to do that, ye think?).

So yes, she did it - and used her name to get attention and gain some support for women to learn to fly.  Not bad - just not some great aviation feat, as this 'member of the public' views it.  My point of view isn't a matter of pilot bravado, it is merely a matter of considering how much real pioneering went on: zero.  It is more akin to a colorful evening weathercast than dramatic moonshot, to me.

So Ms. Earhart is now a member of a fairly long list of people who did it in a number of singles, most of them lighter than hers.  I don't begrudge her that moment of fame - but pardon me, since it has come up and continues, for having my own naive point of view.

How this does go on so... 

I think I've finally tired of the thing (if I weren't already), including the praise and criticism - it just is what it is.  I am glad she's home safely and I wish her well, and same to those others who now get a crack at flying because of what she did - the community should be a bit richer for that, and for them and that result, I'm happy.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: C.W. Herndon on July 21, 2014, 03:37:19 PM
Anything else I can help you with?

Thanks Woody.  Your experience is similar to mine (except for the rotorcraft and combat time).  I particularly wondered if you had experience in aircraft analogous to the Pilatus PC-12.  The TurboCommander is pretty close in terms of size, weight, and speed.

I think you'll agree that stepping up from a light complex single like a Cessna 182RG to an airplane like a TurboCommander or a Pilatus is a huge step.  There's more to do, more to keep track of, and everything happens more quickly.  There's something inexorable about a big, fast airplane.  Things are going to happen, whether you're ready for them or not and it takes years of experience to avoid "getting behind the airplane."  I'm sure your T-Bone and Navaho time was good preparation for the Turbo Commander.

I spent many years as an aviation insurance underwriter.  Part of my job was to match airplanes to pilot experience.  If a 400 Private/Instrument pilot had come to me wanting insurance approval to fly a single pilot, 10,000 lb, 9 passenger, 300 mph turboprop I would have told him/her to come back when he/she had 1,500 hours and we'd talk about a FlightSafety program of simulator time and at least 25 hours of dual.

The Turbo Commander was very close in size and performance to the PC-12. My Navaho time actually came after the Turbo Commander time. I went to the Flight Safety course at the Commander factory in Oklahoma City. The aircraft was bought new and delivered to us at the airport in Nashville, Tn. One of the factory instructors flew with me from there to Naples, FL and the salesman we bought the aircraft from came and flew with me for about 20 landings at Naples and I was "turned loose" to fly on my own. I agree that would have been a pretty big jump from a 182RG

I had been flying for about 25 years by that time.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: C.W. Herndon on July 21, 2014, 03:44:07 PM

And while I respect all that, it doesn't stop me, a member of 'the public', from having a valid point of view of my own, however unwashed: this wasn't even a marginally breath-taking feat, it was done with excellent technology, far past that of many who've done the same thing in lesser equipment; it was more a hightone publicity effort - with a particular 'well known' name highly visible on the marquee, than an aviation ground-breaker.  As such it is simply more sound-bite and visual splash than it is record-setting, IMO. 

Could I mount that same effort from scratch?  I lack the funds, smile and good looks, not to mention 'the name' - so, no hope of gaining a foundation to make it happen.  Could I handle the technical end of it with a well-qualified instructor aboard?  In a heart beat, with several times the flight experience of Ms. Earhart (but far less than Woody, for example). 

Now if I did something truly breath-takingly ground-breaking, like 'round the world in 8 days in a balloon-lofted lawn chair' I bet I'd get some attention (and perhaps criticism by others that have no idea how tough it is to do that, ye think?).

So yes, she did it - and used her name to get attention and gain some support for women to learn to fly.  Not bad - just not some great aviation feat, as this 'member of the public' views it.  My point of view isn't a matter of pilot bravado, it is merely a matter of considering how much real pioneering went on: zero.  It is more akin to a colorful evening weathercast than dramatic moonshot, to me.

So Ms. Earhart is now a member of a fairly long list of people who did it in a number of singles, most of them lighter than hers.  I don't begrudge her that moment of fame - but pardon me, since it has come up and continues, for having my own naive point of view.

How this does go on so... 

I think I've finally tired of the thing (if I weren't already), including the praise and criticism - it just is what it is.  I am glad she's home safely and I wish her well, and same to those others who now get a crack at flying because of what she did - the community should be a bit richer for that, and for them and that result, I'm happy.

Amen Jeff.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: JNev on July 21, 2014, 03:51:35 PM
Sorry, gues it actually did get kind of preachy, didn't it Woody?   ;)
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Tim Mellon on July 21, 2014, 06:48:48 PM
I feel it unfair for those who have accomplished less than Ms. Earhart to weigh in with much criticism.

Did you have an instructor with you?  I think anyone on this forum could circumnavigate the globe in a Pilatus PC-12 with Shane Jordan in the right seat.

No, Ric, ATPs don't need instructors. They can, in fact, themselves instruct in type.

When you have circumnavigated the globe with or without instructor, Ric, let me know.



Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Tim Mellon on July 21, 2014, 07:07:16 PM
I just love it when topics of interest are moved from "General Discussion" to "Oblivion".

Well done, Jeff!

Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: C.W. Herndon on July 21, 2014, 07:26:13 PM
Sorry, gues it actually did get kind of preachy, didn't it Woody?   ;)

Yes, but it was real interesting there for a while. 8)
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: JNev on July 22, 2014, 06:39:30 AM
I just love it when topics of interest are moved from "General Discussion" to "Oblivion".

Well done, Jeff!

You are welcome, Tim.

I hardly think the other panels are "oblivion". They were created to better organize the site as to topic. As intriguing as "Amelia Rose Earhart" is, she is not really related to the search for Earhart, or the General Discussion thereabout. As a moderator, I took the liberty of moving this string to where I believe it belongs - in a just as easily accessed panel of appropriate topic.

My pleasure.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Dan Swift on July 22, 2014, 06:41:39 AM
I think this horse has died.   
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: JNev on July 22, 2014, 07:42:48 AM
Something was smelling funny.  Until you mentioned it I thought it was last week's cantaloupe.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: pilotart on July 22, 2014, 04:14:02 PM
...ATPs don't need instructors. They can, in fact, themselves instruct in type.
...
An ATP can Only instruct within his/her Airline under Their Air Carrier Certificate Part 121 Certified Training Program.   .

Nearly forty years ago as a newly minted/employed Flight Instructor, I had a most interesting student, a Pan American World Airways Senior Captain who had started with them on the Flying Boats, he even held a FAA Navigators Certificate.

He was approaching his sixtieth birthday and would be forced by law to retire from Pan American.  (Rule has now been relaxed a little and age limit is up to 65 but 'ATP' {Airline Transport Pilot} Certificates are going to become much more difficult to qualify for.)

He did not want to give up his flying and needed to add a Flight Instructor Certificate to continue in the manner he chose, which was working for Gulfstream in Savannah.  They were/are the builders of THE Top of the Line Private/Corporate Globe Circling Luxury Jet and had no age problem with giving him employment.

He made an absolutely fascinating student for me and I only regret missing his invitation to visit him in the cockpit of his Boeing 747 as he prepared for his final Pan American World Flight (Miami to London) when a Charter popped up that I had to fly.

It was some years later, after I had my own 'Air Carrier Certificate' (Part 135 Charter) that I visited with him in Savannah  for him to give me an informal 'check-ride' as a friend.  (FAA Required me to ride with them every six months.)  He was very happy flying Worldwide Flights for Gulfstream.

I absolutely agree that the hardest part of international flying is the red-tape, language and ground aggravation.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: pilotart on July 22, 2014, 04:32:00 PM
...
I spent many years as an aviation insurance underwriter.  Part of my job was to match airplanes to pilot experience.  If a 400 Private/Instrument pilot had come to me wanting insurance approval to fly a single pilot, 10,000 lb, 9 passenger, 300 mph turboprop I would have told him/her to come back when he/she had 1,500 hours and we'd talk about a FlightSafety program of simulator time and at least 25 hours of dual.
...
It is absolutely the Insurance Experience/Training Requirements that Rule.

Any descent pilot can get a FAA Certificate to fly Seaplanes in an enjoyable weekend.

He/she would be legal to carry passengers in that class (single or multi-engine sea) as Pilot In Command.

It would not matter how many thousands of hours that pilot had before, he/she would not be allowed to rent a seaplane for solo or passengers until meeting insurance requirements.
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Ric Gillespie on July 22, 2014, 05:56:41 PM
It is absolutely the Insurance Experience/Training Requirements that Rule.

And they're not silly rules set by desk jockeys. Aviation does not have the large numbers needed for underwriters to set requirements based on actuarial tables.  Aviation underwriting/risk assessment is a seat-of-the-pants judgment call made, in most cases, by experienced pilots.  The sales department wants all the business it can get.  The claims department does not want the phone to ring.  The underwriter/risk manager's job is to keep them both happy.  I found that I could deliver excellent loss ratios for the company as long as I was dealing with classes of aircraft in which I had personal experience. 
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Tim Mellon on July 23, 2014, 01:10:28 PM
...ATPs don't need instructors. They can, in fact, themselves instruct in type.
...
An ATP can Only instruct within his/her Airline under Their Air Carrier Certificate Part 121 Certified Training Program.   .

Nearly forty years ago as a newly minted/employed Flight Instructor, I had a most interesting student, a Pan American World Airways Senior Captain who had started with them on the Flying Boats, he even held a FAA Navigators Certificate.

He was approaching his sixtieth birthday and would be forced by law to retire from Pan American.  (Rule has now been relaxed a little and age limit is up to 65 but 'ATP' {Airline Transport Pilot} Certificates are going to become much more difficult to qualify for.)

He did not want to give up his flying and needed to add a Flight Instructor Certificate to continue in the manner he chose, which was working for Gulfstream in Savannah.  They were/are the builders of THE Top of the Line Private/Corporate Globe Circling Luxury Jet and had no age problem with giving him employment.

He made an absolutely fascinating student for me and I only regret missing his invitation to visit him in the cockpit of his Boeing 747 as he prepared for his final
Quote
Section 61.167   Airline transport pilot privileges and limitations.
(a) Privileges. (1) A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate is entitled to the same privileges as a person who holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating.
(2) A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate and has met the aeronautical experience requirements of §61.159 and the age requirements of §61.153(a)(1) of this part may instruct—
(i) Other pilots in air transportation service in  aircraft of the category, class, and type, as applicable, for which the airline transport pilot is rated and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;
(ii) In flight simulators, and flight training devices representing the aircraft referenced in paragraph (a)(2)(i) of this section, when instructing under the provisions of this section and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Tim Mellon on July 23, 2014, 01:15:45 PM
...ATPs don't need instructors. They can, in fact, themselves instruct in type.
...
An ATP can Only instruct within his/her Airline under Their Air Carrier Certificate Part 121 Certified Training Program.   .


Quote
Section 61.167   Airline transport pilot privileges and limitations.
(a) Privileges. (1) A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate is entitled to the same privileges as a person who holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating.
(2) A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate and has met the aeronautical experience requirements of §61.159 and the age requirements of §61.153(a)(1) of this part may instruct—
(i) Other pilots in air transportation service in  aircraft of the category, class, and type, as applicable, for which the airline transport pilot is rated and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;
(ii) In flight simulators, and flight training devices representing the aircraft referenced in paragraph (a)(2)(i) of this section, when instructing under the provisions of this section and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;

Art, wouldn't this language include training of Part 135 pilots?

Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: pilotart on July 24, 2014, 06:55:17 PM
Section 61.167   Airline transport pilot privileges and limitations.
(a) Privileges. (1) A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate is entitled to the same privileges as a person who holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating.
(2) A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate and has met the aeronautical experience requirements of §61.159 and the age requirements of §61.153(a)(1) of this part may instruct—
(i) Other pilots in air transportation service in  aircraft of the category, class, and type, as applicable, for which the airline transport pilot is rated and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;
(ii) In flight simulators, and flight training devices representing the aircraft referenced in paragraph (a)(2)(i) of this section, when instructing under the provisions of this section and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;
To add paragraph 3 to the above quoted 'FAR'.
Quote
(3) Only as provided in this section, except that an airline transport pilot who also holds a flight instructor certificate can exercise the instructor privileges under subpart H of this part for which he or she is rated;

Art, wouldn't this language include training of Part 135 pilots?

Yes Tim, FAR Section 61.3 (d) (3) (ii) "...conducted in accordance with an approved air carrier training program approved under part 121 or part 135 of this chapter;..."
And then it goes on with paragraph (iii) dealing with "Approved" schools, (iv) requiring a Ground Instructor Certificate for endorsements and (v) goes back to having an authorized flight instructor certificate.  BTW a Commercial Pilot (about 10% qualified as an ATP) Certificate with a "Lighter-Than-Air" Category listed can give unrestricted instruction in an Airship or Balloon Class Aircraft (the Lighter than Air Category does not exist on Flight Instructor Certificates).

I just don't agree with a general statement that ATP's can provide Flight Instruction without the qualifier that their instructing is under much more restrictive requirements than Certified Flight Instructors come under.

FAR's 142, 135 and 121 have pages of requirements (far more than I would want to paste here :D but they far exceed what is required for CFI's) for ATP's to meet for use as instructors and then each Operator must have an "Approved" Manual and Training Program kept up to date to use those privileges.

Given those requirements and limitations, I can see the logic in not requiring an Approved Air Carrier or School's Instructors to not also need CFI cards, but most of them have them anyway.  A part 135 flight-check passed with an FAA Inspector by a qualified Commercial Pilot is sufficient if requested, for issuance of an ATP license.

Back when I flew under FAR-135, I did not need a current CFI, but the  CFI renewal requirements were more than met by my 135 activity and although not automatic, my Certificate was always renewed  just by filling out an application.  I had tried for ten years to get FAA Approval to use FlightSafety (Approved Simulator Program) for every other six month check without success, job protection by FAA...

Certified Flight Instructor is the only Pilot Certificate with an expiration date (24 months).  CFI Renewal can be accomplished with a minimal 16 hour class (or online), or by an FAA Inspector with personal knowledge or his/her satisfactory review of your Record.  If you let it expire, you must re-do all of the practical tests for each and every Category, Class, Type and Authorization you want  renewed.  FAA went back and forth on requiring you to do that with FAA Inspectors or allowing the use of Designated Examiners. A Ground Instructor Certificate does not expire.

None of the other Pilot Certificates carry expiration dates either, but have requirements you must accomplish to keep them current.

Tim, I am aware that with your history of buying Airports, Scheduled & Non-Scheduled Air Carriers (and Railroad Lines) that you must be very familiar with the above.  I only provide the details to clarify for others when, where and how an ATP Can teach and that an ATP not in Air-Carrier service WILL NEED an Instructor or Approved School periodically for FAA Rules and Insurance Warranties.

I recall the PanAm name being used for a Flight Simulator School which became the current and well-respected SimCom, that must have been prior to your involvement?
Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Tim Mellon on July 25, 2014, 03:26:25 AM
Art, we're on the same page.

Yes, but SimCom and PanAm Academy separated in 2006.

We had purchased 2 727 simulators from United. They were eventually resold to FedEx as I recall.

Title: Re: Amelia Rose Earhart world flight
Post by: Dan Swift on July 25, 2014, 11:26:01 AM
This is kind of cool!  Landing at Tarawa.   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80JQBP59wN4