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Author Topic: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund  (Read 618259 times)

JNev

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #480 on: November 11, 2013, 07:19:26 AM »


This is such a horrific, mind-numbing, waste of time and resources.

Unfortunately, this is what American civil law has degenerated into - a brutal slugging match in which the weapons of choice are piles of paper, endlessly repetitive requests and only one clear goal - outlast the other guy before he can bury you in a mound of paper. It has little to do with what is right or fair, and almost nothing to do with justice. I have had the great misfortune to see this process in action, up close and personal. Someday the nightmares may fade away to a tolerable level  ;D

LTM, who knows when he "can't handle the truth,"
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER

You are partly right, Monty.

As to the first of your points, in terms of burden, you are wrong - it has been that way ever snce our nation established the justice system we know under the Constitution: a citizen has the right to his day in court, and has always had the right to privvy and savvy counsel (which is also a way of acknowledging one who knows his way around an outhouse).  That has always provided the open door to go hammer and tong against any neighbor, subject to end-verdict by the court - whether a bench matter of law, or opinion and judgment of facts by that both lofty and low thing known as a jury - whether 'of peers' or not I'll leave to others.

As to the lofty and oft low jury -

It is what it is, a citizen's fate - life, limb or fortune, in the hands of a most unpredictable beast, often full of not-so evident biases and handicaps when it comes to objectivity or critical review of the presentation.  Oh so malleable, the human race - and oh so made up of foible humans is our free society...

As to the paper -

To your point, true - we have gained the depths of being able to 'paper' a less financially able adversary 'to death' - all it takes is willing payment of fees and generation of seemingly endless inquiry and imposition of laborious discovery, all backed by firms with eager and hungry young eagles who wish to consume the flesh of those put before them by their betters.  But rejoice - as horrendous as it all can be, it has replaced the grand-standing oratories of the past which so often led to 'gentilmanly affront and response', i.e. fisticuffs to duels, honor being honored and all that.  I'll take the chance of fighting paper over a random pistol ball to the thigh as judgment, so many having bled out on the 'field of honor' - perhaps very much in the 'right' - but finally 'dead right'.

As to the system itself -

Imperfect, made of man - and by far the envy of the world.  Few nations approach our use of open court and trial by jury, sans rex.  It is not totally pure - it certainly is not free, and it does not make one immune to hap-hazard attack - but it beats giving a king the power to hang a subject out of annoyance with the whole matter, and perhaps giving over a 'win' to a favored lord, etc.

So I may be bewildered, but hardly stand mind-blown; despite the hazards and distractions - even expenses (and of course it is not my ass on the line in this one), I rejoice at the liberty despite the dangers.

Just sayin...

Now, back to sleep with me... zzzzzzzz...........
- Jeff Neville

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« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 07:21:01 AM by Jeffrey Neville »
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JNev

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #481 on: November 11, 2013, 07:36:27 AM »

:D'Kill the Lawyers,' A Line Misinterpreted
Published: June 17, 1990

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In reference to the review of ''Guilty Conscience,'' (May 20) Leah D. Frank is inaccurate when she states that when Shakespeare had one of his characters state ''Let's kill all the lawyers,'' it was the corrupt, unethical lawyers he was referring to. Shakespeare's exact line ''The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers,'' was stated by Dick the Butcher in ''Henry VI,'' Part II, act IV, Scene II, Line 73. Dick the Butcher was a follower of the rebel Jack Cade, who thought that if he disturbed law and order, he could become king. Shakespeare meant it as a compliment to attorneys and judges who instill justice in society.

Regardless of his intent, Shakespeare was right.   First, let;s kill all the Lawyers.  That would be a good start!

Anarchy?  Once you've hanged them, who next, moi? :o  Ah, not if I get to you first...  8)  Ah, let us pray that a king then does not emerge and take it for himself as to whom among us is next, and next...

See how that works?  Funny to think of, yes; well placed?  Consider -

IMO it's not the lawyers who are at fault.  They're just the craftsmen hired to do the work.  A good lawyer can argue either side of a question.  Law school gives then training, not education.  18th-century Irish politician and philosopher Edmund Burke supposedly said, "The study of law sharpens the mind by narrowing it."  Tim Mellon's lawyers are not his friends, they are his employees. They didn't put him up to this.  They just bill him for the hours.

I will give Ric a lot of credit for that - a citizen under fire who sees and values the system for what it is despite the struggle he's in.

As to 'training' vs 'education' and Burke -

There can be no doubt that legal 'training' is very much that - it is a field of logic / counter-logic and maneuver, all within the bounds of a very rigorous framework of procedure and precedent; none of that comes to mind without great training and honing of native skills of being light on foot.

But it can also be one of the finest liberal educations available, if one pursues it with that depth in mind.  It definitely changes one's way of thinkiing - critical thought is honed by the study of many examples of real historic complaints and outcomes and human and societal reactions.

I guess it just depends on one's focus as a student and what one demands to make of the experience, but all of law is not just maneuver.  Synthesizing excellent solutions and adroitly gaining a desired direction and outcome very often come from something much deeper...

So as to Burke - who could be deep: deeper may be the point.  If one digs an effecdtive well, it is necesarily narrow with respect to depth lest the water not be reached efficiently.  Most probably realize that "Phd" actually has been said to mean not so much "doctor of Philosophy" perhaps as "Piled higher and deeper" - as one advances by degree, one tends to narrow the focus and go for depth, yes?  It also obviously helps one to eliminate distractions: it isn't always what the law "is" that is so important, but what the law "is not".

No different for the J.D. than Phd, I'm sure - so hat's off to Burke, but no foul IMO.
- Jeff Neville

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« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 07:40:44 AM by Jeffrey Neville »
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JNev

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #482 on: November 11, 2013, 11:09:44 AM »

If the bird is there "Did she land their" or "float their",  ;D

You forgot, "or did the Japanese plant it there?"   Or better yet "Did TIGHAR find it somewhere else and plant it there."  (Hell, we've already been accused of finding it and keeping it secret.)  If we find it you can bet there will be no shortage of dumb explanations and accusations.

You forgot "archeological site seeded by aliens mischievously moving old airplane from Saipan Hangar to space ship, thence Nikumaroro Island; Japanese government denies complicity, but..."

Whether Niku pans out or not as to actual wreckage find, one thing cannot be denied, Ric - you have visibly worked your fanny off for something approaching 30 years to prove what you believe.  Find her anywhere in those waters, and as far as I am concerned, then by-God that's where she came down. 

How it happened is not so important - I don't think finding the bird there necessary proves details like "possible transmissions that could only have come from land" (there will always be some reasonable doubt to many folks on that), etc. - and e.g., she could have 'crashed and sunk' yards offshore in a last-minute dodge due to doubts about the reef flat for all we know.

But if you find her anywhere in that vicinity and I will be happy to fly the flag - "Earhart ended up on Gardner (Niku)".  The 'odds' are way too against a chance arrival by other means.  A wreck at Niku - however it got there, ought to be 'close enough' for 95% of the public -

Which is far and away stronger than you ought to even hope for (remember those old 'moon rocks'... still a few living souls in my home county that not only believe it was a fake, but that if they're wrong, they need to put 'em back so the weather can get back to normal...).

The trick is to just find the damn thing...

And I will add, if you are REALLY thinking as far out as 2023 (or whenever "Niku XIII" was said to be, tongue-in-cheek I realize of course) we're gonna have to get you a peg-leg and give you your own 'Pequod'...

I'd like 'the book' one day, win lose or draw, and there are other wrecks too (wish we could look for Redfern...).  If this damn whale eats you I'll never get the book!
- Jeff Neville

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« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 07:57:24 AM by Jeffrey Neville »
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Bob Miller

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #483 on: November 11, 2013, 08:23:21 PM »

I am a newby here as far as membership. I have lurked here for years, coming here in the beginning following aircraft recovery stories. I also contributed to Niku VII and have a great certificate to prove it! ;)
I know my piddly little contribution pales in comparison to Tim Mellons. BUT I sent it in good faith and I have no complaints about it. I will also send a contribution for Niku VIII and will try to eke out a little more for the defense fund. I personally would have eagerly paid Tim's $1 million (IF I HAD that kinda money!) just to have accompanied the Niku VII expedition.
IF Tim wins his lawsuit I believe that he should be billed for his trip with Niku VII. Believe me plenty of us lurkers would have been well satisfied to have just been along for the ride.
This will be my one and only post on this thread. I am glad that Ric has kept up planning for Niku VIII and that is where my thoughts and posts will be. Keep up the good work!

LTM
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 07:38:58 PM by Bob Miller »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #484 on: November 11, 2013, 08:40:56 PM »

Thanks Bob.  I appreciate your support.

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Monty Fowler

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #485 on: November 12, 2013, 06:58:44 PM »

Jeff, my summation of the current state of the American civil legal system was based, unfortunately, on more than limited personal experience. Trying to put a human face on the beast, as it were.

And that's all I've got to say about that.

LTM, who reserves the right to cry "Interrogatory!" in a crowded courtroom,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
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JNev

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #486 on: November 13, 2013, 09:39:33 AM »

Jeff, my summation of the current state of the American civil legal system was based, unfortunately, on more than limited personal experience. Trying to put a human face on the beast, as it were.

And that's all I've got to say about that.

LTM, who reserves the right to cry "Interrogatory!" in a crowded courtroom,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER

No foul, I can understand, Monty; but I'll share that I've learned the hard way to not put human faces on too many beasts -

'Beast' is not a bad term, and when a beast of prey goes after game it isn't personal - not that the Gazelle might not think so as a lioness takes him down... it's his fanny.  But Don Miguel Luiz has it right in the 'Four Agreements' - study the second of the four:

"Don't take anything personally.  Nothing others do is because of you.  What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream.  When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering."

His little 'Toltec Wisdom Book' has been a windfall for me, I recommend it as an intriguing and useful view into how better to reflect on the nonsense around us and better cope with the ordinary and extraordinary afflictions that come our way.

Of course it's hard for the Gazelle to 'experience the moment in thoughtful reflection' and consider the assault as impersonal as the lioness sinks her fangs into his rump and drags him down, I understand.  We were blessed with adrenalin, and finally natural opiates, for a reason...  :P 

But at the end of the day, Ruiz was right - t'was mererly a hungry lion, not a particular Gazelle who begged the action excepting that the set-upon critter may have been more vulnerable than others of the herd for some reason. 

Unfortunately TIGHAR can be that way - push hard enough for something in this world because her own dreams demand it, and someone's 'impersonal' crosshairs will find her soon enough as an extension of their own dream...

If we are quick, we dream - sleeping or waking; the difference lies in the hazard of the alertly manipulated dream.

And that's all I'm going to say about that...
- Jeff Neville

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« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 09:43:33 AM by Jeffrey Neville »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #487 on: November 14, 2013, 07:19:14 AM »

Of course it's hard for the Gazelle to 'experience the moment in thoughtful reflection' and consider the assault as impersonal as the lioness sinks her fangs into his rump and drags him down, I understand.  We were blessed with adrenalin, and finally natural opiates, for a reason...  :P 

But sometimes the lioness tries to drag down a zebra and gets a hoof in the face for her trouble.
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JNev

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #488 on: November 14, 2013, 07:27:17 AM »

Of course it's hard for the Gazelle to 'experience the moment in thoughtful reflection' and consider the assault as impersonal as the lioness sinks her fangs into his rump and drags him down, I understand.  We were blessed with adrenalin, and finally natural opiates, for a reason...  :P 

But sometimes the lioness tries to drag down a zebra and gets a hoof in the face for her trouble.

So very true - 'adrenaline' very often wins the day; the lion does not win as many as National Geographic would suggest - Zebras are fast and tough.

We had a farrier here who volunteered for a day to trim the hooves on a herd of Zebras on a nearby island reserve.  "How many" he asked, and was told "about a dozen".  No sweat - couple of hours and done... he figured they were like so many ponies...

As the sun went down he was black and blue all over and cut and bleeding in several places, worn out, ready for pull off his spooker - and had finished all four hooves on one critter, and "two and a half" on another" - the rest would have to wait - and for someone else.  He and two other able-bodied types had spent the day bulldogging exactly that many Zebras to the ground for a friendly 'trim' -

Never underestimate the power of the hoof.
- Jeff Neville

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Friend Weller

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #489 on: November 15, 2013, 10:29:28 AM »

Never underestimate the power of the hoof.

I should put that on a t-shirt or a bumper sticker!  :D
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #490 on: November 17, 2013, 04:46:34 PM »

I spent all day today assembling correspondence and documents to respond to just one of 22 "Requests for Production of Documents" - all part of the discovery process.  The only consolation to a totally wasted Sunday is the "billable hours" it will cost the Plaintiff for his attorneys to examine the hundreds of emails, reports and illustrations only to discover that all of the evidence supports the Defendants.  I wonder what I could have accomplished with those hours.
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Monty Fowler

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #491 on: November 17, 2013, 08:33:45 PM »

Look at the bright side, Ric - you'll be keeping two people gainfully employed through the Christmas season who might otherwise have had to go on the dole.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
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Dan Swift

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #492 on: November 18, 2013, 10:06:16 AM »

Will this ever end?!   Ridiculous! 
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JNev

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #493 on: November 19, 2013, 08:29:43 AM »

Look at the bright side, Ric - you'll be keeping two people gainfully employed through the Christmas season who might otherwise have had to go on the dole.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER

Now Monty, you don't really think those guys are running out of work, do you?
- Jeff Neville

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Ric Gillespie

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Re: TIGHAR Legal Defense Fund
« Reply #494 on: December 19, 2013, 05:56:14 AM »

The court has handed Mellon another defeat. As you'll recall, in our last exciting episode, in response to TIGHAR's "12b6" Motion to Dimiss, the judge threw out two of the four counts in the complaint. The charge that TIGHAR had somehow engaged in racketeering (RICO) and the charge that TIGHAR had been negligent in its conduct of the 2012 Niku VII expedition were dismissed "with prejudice", meaning that they can not be brought up again.  A few weeks ago Mellon's attorneys filed a motion asking the court to drop the "with prejudice" part of the ruling, arguing that evidence of racketeering or negligence might come up during the discovery phase.
The judge has now refused that motion, essentially saying, "No, I meant what I said. I don't want to hear anything about racketeering or the 2012 expedition."
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