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Author Topic: Sonar Target  (Read 190886 times)

richie conroy

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Sonar Target
« on: March 07, 2013, 03:18:07 PM »

Hi All

Ric the image i have attached shows an anomaly below second cliff which arrow points too.

Do you have a closer sonar image with better detail ?

Didn't want too start new thread just for this, So will delete post in couple hours *(This post moved from "New TIGHAR Tracks" to new "Sonar Target" thread - JN)

Thank's Richie   
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« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 01:28:34 AM by J. Nevill »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Re: New TIGHAR Tracks
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2013, 07:10:58 PM »

Ric the image i have attached shows an anomaly below second cliff which arrow points too.

Do you have a closer sonar image with better detail ?

Well....that's pretty interesting.  Nice work Richie.  It's certainly an anomaly - as in, I don't see anything else like it.  It has the appearance of being an object that has fallen off the the second cliff, hit the slope at the bottom of the cliff, and slid downhill on a southward trajectory leaving a gouged path deep enough to show up on the side-scan sonar.  That would suggest that it's quite heavy.  (Your second image is upside down). The object - if that is what it is - is quite large, maybe too large to be airplane wreckage.  Hard to say.  It did, however, come to rest at roughly the same depth as the stern of Norwich City, but it's too far north to be ship wreckage.  I need to do some checking but I don't think Phoenix identified it as a target worth investigating.  Whatever it is, we never went there with the ROV as you can see from the attached map showing the "snail trails" of all the ROV dives.

I'll go through the data and see what more I can find out about this target.  You're right that it doesn't belong in this thread.  I suggest you start a new topic called "Sonar target."

*(This post moved from "New TIGHAR Tracks" accordingly - JN)
« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 01:29:08 AM by J. Nevill »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Re: New TIGHAR Tracks
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2013, 09:14:41 PM »

Ric the image i have attached shows an anomaly below second cliff which arrow points too.

Do you have a closer sonar image with better detail ?

Well....that's pretty interesting.  Nice work Richie.  It's certainly an anomaly - as in, I don't see anything else like it.  It has the appearance of being an object that has fallen off the the second cliff, hit the slope at the bottom of the cliff, and slid downhill on a southward trajectory leaving a gouged path deep enough to show up on the side-scan sonar.  That would suggest that it's quite heavy.  (Your second image is upside down). The object - if that is what it is - is quite large, maybe too large to be airplane wreckage.  Hard to say.  It did, however, come to rest at roughly the same depth as the stern of Norwich City, but it's too far north to be ship wreckage.  I need to do some checking but I don't think Phoenix identified it as a target worth investigating.  Whatever it is, we never went there with the ROV as you can see from the attached map showing the "snail trails" of all the ROV dives.

I'll go through the data and see what more I can find out about this target.  You're right that it doesn't belong in this thread.  I suggest you start a new topic called "Sonar target."

Ric, does this mean that we can discuss underwater images again? Has Jeff Glickman opined on this anomaly?

Tim
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« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 09:16:58 PM by Tim Mellon »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Re: New TIGHAR Tracks
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2013, 09:59:40 PM »

Ric, does this mean that we can discuss underwater images again? Has Jeff Glickman opined on this anomaly?

We'll confine discussions to the side-scan image and try to figure out if it's anything worth getting excited about.  I haven't heard from Jeff lately and I know he has a trip to Southeast Asia coming up soon.
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richie conroy

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Re: Re: New TIGHAR Tracks
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2013, 10:31:06 AM »

Ok Thank's Ric
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richie conroy

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Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2013, 06:00:31 PM »

Hi All

Ric Is it possible the area of Anomaly is same area of 2010 wire/rope video ?

the following image is from another angle of Anomaly, The red area is quite obvious, \However the Electra had orange on front edge of wings,  But i believe this is just software related color. I.E Photoshop's interpretation of image.

Thanks Richie   
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« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 06:10:20 PM by richie conroy »
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2013, 07:40:56 PM »

Is it possible the area of Anomaly is same area of 2010 wire/rope video ?


Richie, the amber arrow points to where I think the location of the 2010 debris field is located (seen again in the first 2012 dive). Your object lies approximately 100 meters down, the debris field almost 300 meters (985-1015 feet). Of course, your object could be that "missing" engine.


 
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« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 07:57:15 PM by Tim Mellon »
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richie conroy

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Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2013, 04:46:05 PM »

Hi Leon

Ric speculated that the object was too big to be airplane wreckage, However he is looking into it.

Not sure what the T shaped object is.

In the following image i increased the shadow an seen the object arrow was pointing too funny shape don't ye think ?

my Bet is it's a tree or something to them lines

Thanks Richie
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2013, 05:42:21 PM »

I've scaled the object as best I can and I make it something under 10 meters in length with a "tail' roughly four times that long.  I've corresponded about this with the Hawaii Undersea Research Lab (HURL) scientist who was aboard KOK with us last summer.  He agrees that it's an interesting target - certainly anomalous to anything else in the side-scan imagery. We're working on it.  I'll let everyone know when we know more.
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richie conroy

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Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2013, 07:54:20 AM »

Hi All

Ric any chance off some footage off were anomaly would have slid across from nessie to were it lay now, As the rov goes over that area

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5TALXiBUgk&list=PLniL708Xuz5zB37l7dCYb3tY7S3eky286&index=12

There seems to be strands of wire about the area at start and on 0:58 bottom right there is some thing on floor a black object, You don't see it in second part off video cos the camera goes down not up.

Also have you not heard no more off (HURL)about anomaly ?

Thanks Richie 

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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2013, 08:11:12 AM »

Ric any chance off some footage off were anomaly would have slid across from nessie to were it lay now, As the rov goes over that area

We were never in that area with the ROV.  The video clips (Standard and Hi-Def) that I put on YouTube are the closest video we have and they're roughly 50 meters north of the anomaly.

There seems to be strands of wire about the area at start and on 0:58 bottom right there is some thing on floor a black object, You don't see it in second part off video cos the camera goes down not up.

I don't see any man-made objects in that video.  My only purpose in putting up those clips was to show the nature of the bottom.

Also have you not heard no more off (HURL)about anomaly ?

I'm still waiting to hear back from several side-scan sonar experts but we've done quite a bit work on pinning down exactly where and how big the anomaly is.  I can tell you this much - we really, really like this sonar target.
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richie conroy

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Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2013, 02:34:01 PM »

Hi All

Hi Ric

The attached image i have added white line from nessie to anomaly resting place there are 3 snail trail's that go over the path the Anomaly took from nessie to were it lay, So my question is: Is there anything in the area's the Rov go over to suggest the anomaly came from nessie area ?

Thanks Richie
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Bill de Creeft

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Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2013, 08:14:34 PM »

Hi Guys
I hadn't seen these U-Tubes before and don't know if these views have been discussed and conjectured over...but in the one called ropes/wires that looks like an aeronse (sp) control (prop or mixture control ?...would have run between engine and cockpit?

The one labeled "object studied 7-18-12 " there's all kinds of interesting stuff but figure I'm coming in late...

In the box right in the beginning (1:57- 2:00) it looks like two radio tubes inside it...clear enough that if it is, you can see the top plate in the tubes through the glass...but if that's already covered you guys will just laugh at me !?!

Might as well say that towards the end , after what looks like wing structure, that looks very much like a wing tip position light sticking up...but there again I'm guess in the blind here...don't know where this was found and what you guys think....certainly something there (wherever "there" is !!)
Any value in these thoughts?
Bill
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2013, 05:43:00 AM »


The one labeled "object studied 7-18-12 " there's all kinds of interesting stuff but figure I'm coming in late...

In the box right in the beginning (1:57- 2:00) it looks like two radio tubes inside it...clear enough that if it is, you can see the top plate in the tubes through the glass...but if that's already covered you guys will just laugh at me !?!

Might as well say that towards the end , after what looks like wing structure, that looks very much like a wing tip position light sticking up...but there again I'm guess in the blind here...don't know where this was found and what you guys think....certainly something there (wherever "there" is !!)
Any value in these thoughts?
Bill

The entire dive represented by this video captures the debris field that is the Norwich City. At first it was thought that the ribbed panel might be an aircraft wing (correct dimension and shape), but closer examination revealed it to be a section of bulkhead or hatch cover from the ship.

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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2013, 07:39:55 AM »

Is there anything in the area's the Rov go over to suggest the anomaly came from nessie area ?

Yes, two things.
1. If the "tail" extending northward from the anomaly is a skid mark, scar, or furrow dug by the object as it hit the slope at the base of the cliff, it suggests that the object may have been moving in a southerly direction when it hit. I would expect a coral boulder to travel straight down. The current in that area runs southward which could account for a southerly trajectory if the sinking object was partially buoyant (such as wreckage of the airplane's fuselage).   Of course, it could also be that the slope in that particular spot slopes off to the southward which could cause any impacting object to skid southward.
2. The area where the possible landing gear debris field appears in the ROV video is on the line you drew between Nessie and the anomaly. As shown in the attached diagrams, it is at a depth where the reef slope moderates between the first and second cliff.

In other words, things appear to be lining up.  You can draw a straight line between any two points.  Three points?  Not so much.  We didn't "back into" these three points.  We didn't look for something where we wanted something to be.  Nessie is where she is. The anomaly is where it is.   The landing gear debris in the ROV video is the only feature of interest that Jeff Glickman spotted after reviewing something like 19 hours of video and when he spotted it he had no idea where on the reef the video was taken.   But is the sonar anomaly really as good as it looks to us amateurs?  Before we get too excited I want to hear from the pros.

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