Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 17   Go Down

Author Topic: Sonar Target  (Read 190890 times)

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 5923
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2013, 07:52:15 AM »

I hadn't seen these U-Tubes before and don't know if these views have been discussed and conjectured over...

Yes.  Ad nauseum.  That way lies madness.  With enough video to work with you can find anything you can imagine in that "snow" covered seascape.  There may, in fact, be camels in the clouds but we won't know until we can go back and poke at them to see if they spit (how's that for an analogy?).
Logged

Bill de Creeft

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 63
Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2013, 12:27:01 PM »

Thanks Ric and Tim...

(keep in mind that "madness" may be what brings me here !?! )

Bill
Bill de Creeft

Tighar Member #4131
 
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 5923
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2013, 12:54:59 PM »

(keep in mind that "madness" may be what brings me here !?! )

You're in good company. None of us here are quite right.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 08:16:56 AM by Ric Gillespie »
Logged

richie conroy

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1412
Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2013, 04:44:23 PM »

Hi All

Ric i have to admit i was surprised given what you know of Water current an location of airplane pieces spotted by and around lagoon that yous never never searched the most likely area debris would have come to rest i.e between nessie and NC debris

Obviously i know it ok me saying an pointing this out now like, am just intrested in the thought process you's used when searching

Thank Richie
We are an echo of the past


Member# 416
 
Logged

Greg Daspit

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 784
Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2013, 06:33:41 PM »

In the first image Richie posted in this thread there looks like semi circular ripples above the "tail". Possibly from an impact above the object that caused a landslide. Is the light colored line a ridge or gouge?

What are the other light colored trails below it that are roughly at a one elevation and continuous?
Edit: probably something like Stratum

Also it looks like evidence of a landslide under the Norwich City, only much bigger
3971R
 
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 08:22:55 PM by G. Daspit »
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 5923
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2013, 10:43:45 AM »

Ric i have to admit i was surprised given what you know of Water current an location of airplane pieces spotted by and around lagoon that yous never never searched the most likely area debris would have come to rest i.e between nessie and NC debris

Obviously i know it ok me saying an pointing this out now like, am just intrested in the thought process you's used when searching


It's a fair question Richie and I'm happy to answer it.
First of all, unlike previous TIGHAR searches, this one was contracted out to a company whose business is to conduct underwater remote-sensing searches and recoveries. We told them where we wanted to search.  Our primary search area was the reef slope from Nessie south to the Norwich City. If nothing was found there we wanted to cover the entire reef slope down to 1,500 meters from the NW tip of the island down to well south of the shipwreck. It was the contractor's job to select the technology and then design and carry out the search.  For this they were paid a great deal of money - in advance.  TIGHAR's role was to provide technical representatives to assist the contractor "with the identification of TIGHAR identified recovery targets during the search operation." 
The plan recommended by the contractor and agreed to by TIGHAR was a three-step process:
• First, the multi-beam sonar aboard KOK would map the reef slope.  Multi-beam sonar does not have sufficient resolution to find wreckage but mapping the entire perimeter of the island would only take a few hours and would provide a good basic map to work from for the detailed side-scan sonar search.
• Next, an Autonomous Underwater Vehicle (AUV) equipped with side-scan sonar would begin surveying the western reef slope.  After each AUV mission, the contractor would examine the sonar data collected and identify promising targets.
• Finally, the targets would be investigated with video cameras mounted on a Remote Operated Vehicle (ROV) provided by a subcontractor.

We figured we could cover the entire area in 10 days of searching.

That was the plan, but the transit to the island took longer than expected and we arrived with only 8 days to spend on-site. The multi-beam mapping went well but the first two days were wasted trying to get the AUV to work. At that point I was tempted to cancel it’s use altogether and do all the searching by “mowing the lawn” with the ROV.  The contractor insisted on continuing to try to get the AUV working - so we made a deal.  The contractor and his people would work with the AUV at night and I would take over the ROV search working with the ROV subcontractor during the day checking out targets the contractor identified in the side-scan data and otherwise “mowing the lawn” in the primary search area. 

Our first operational ROV dive was Dive 3 on July 14. We started just below Nessie and explored southward along the shelf at the base of the first cliff.  Jeff Glickman later spotted the “Fender” in the HD video from that part of Dive 3 but we couldn’t see HD video in real time.  When got down to the area behind Norwich City we started seeing ship wreckage and went deeper. We made our way northward and started “mowing the lawn” up and down the reef slope in the area directly below the Nessie location.

Dive 4 later that day was aborted because of a generator failure.
Dive 5 on July 15 chased six side-scan targets identified by the contractor as worthy of investigation.  All turned out to be either coral boulders or Norwich City wreckage.

Dives 6 and 7 on July 16 were spent in amongst the Norwich City stern wreckage trying  to find the “wing” target and mowing the lawn in that area.
Dive 8 on July 17 was spent rescuing the AUV from the cave.
Dive 9 on July 18 was another attempt to find the “wing.”
Dive 10 on July 18 investigated an “almost certainly man-made” target identified by the contractor off the NW tip of the island.  It was a rock.
Dive 11 on July 18 was yet another attempt to conclusively identify the “wing.”
Dive 12 on July 18  resumed “mowing the lawn” in the area behind Nessie.  This is the closest we ever got to the anomaly.  Had we known the target was there we certainly would have continued to run those lines and check it out.
Dive 13 on July 19 (our last day) we were out of ideas.  We made another excursion along the base of the first cliff but found nothing.
Dive 14 on July 19 , a deep dive from the Norwich City wreckage to below the nessie location was our final dive. 
Logged

richie conroy

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1412
Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2013, 03:12:30 PM »

Thank's Ric

I wish i had known the information you have shared, Before i posted the above  :-X as i was certain your main objective was to cover the area between nessie an NC

And it appears they went every were apart from your preferred area  ::)

Am confident your next expedition will be a Success under an above water  :)

While looking for video's on interpreting sonar images, I came across this device    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=humminbird+side+imaging&oq=hummingbird+si&gs_l=youtube.1.1.0j0i10l2j0j0i10j0l2j0i10l3.4640.11312.0.14815.14.12.0.0.0.1.227.1470.7j4j1.12.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.pA-6qDXowdM

Seem's the device knows the difference between rock's an man made objects  :)

Thank's Richie
We are an echo of the past


Member# 416
 
Logged

richie conroy

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1412
Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2013, 03:18:12 PM »

In the first image Richie posted in this thread there looks like semi circular ripples above the "tail". Possibly from an impact above the object that caused a landslide. Is the light colored line a ridge or gouge?

What are the other light colored trails below it that are roughly at a one elevation and continuous?
Edit: probably something like Stratum

Also it looks like evidence of a landslide under the Norwich City, only much bigger

Hi G

The following sonar image is what I speculate we are seeing I could be wrong though  ;D
We are an echo of the past


Member# 416
 
Logged

Greg Daspit

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 784
Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2013, 10:14:10 PM »

Richie, did you see the latest post on TIGHAR's Facebook page?

Also, there may be a "trail" running down the slope starting below the cliff, just under the anomaly.
And a few other "trails" to the north that seem to run down the slope a long way.
If they are evidence of slides and not ridges or grooves, they may be good paths to follow down. One of them seems to start away from the base of the cliff just below the Bevington Object, maybe something floated out before sinking and caused a slide starting at mid slope.

3971R
 
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 5923
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2013, 07:59:15 AM »

Also, there may be a "trail" running down the slope starting below the cliff, just under the anomaly.
And a few other "trails" to the north that seem to run down the slope a long way.
If they are evidence of slides and not ridges or grooves, they may be good paths to follow down. One of them seems to start away from the base of the cliff just below the Bevington Object, maybe something floated out before sinking and caused a slide starting at mid slope.

We've been looking at those "trails."  They may be scarring from landslides. That area is prone to landslides.  We set off a small one with the ROV while trying to untangle the tether from a coral outcropping.  Scary.  The marks that appear to be scarring appear in two areas along the western reef - behind the Norwich City wreck where we know big  chunks of wreckage tumbled down the slope - and behind Nessie.  Unfortunately, the "trails" below Nessie lead into an area where we have no side-scan data because the slope was too steep.
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 5923
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2013, 01:04:13 PM »

As I just told the Facebook gang, we've asked several independent sonar experts to look at the data and we're getting conflicting opinions (wouldn't you know it?).
Lots of technical questions going back and forth right now. We're hoping we can arrive at some kind of consensus. 
Logged

Chris Johnson

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1069
  • Trying to give a fig but would settle for $100,000
Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2013, 03:18:20 PM »

From the first image in the thread is it possible to 'scale' the object (or is that something the experts are looking at)?
Logged

Randy Conrad

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 387
Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2013, 03:23:23 PM »

Ric and Richie...I don't know if you guys have seen this or not...but take the anomaly picture file, open it up, and zoom in a couple of clicks...but not much, and then turn it over on its side and tell me what you see. Does this appear that the plane is laying on its roof at an angle and what appears to be left of a broken wing burrowing itself into the shelf floor. If this is the case, then this would describe the Bennington photo completely. Basically, when the Electra started washing out with the waves, it caught that rut in the reef (area where the landing gear was spotted) and possibly snagged the wing breaking it off along with the landing gear. Thus, turning the rest of the plane over and causing it to slip further down the shelf!!!!!
Logged

Randy Conrad

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 387
Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2013, 03:25:28 PM »

For those of you who may think that I'm implying that this is the plane, I'm merely referring to the anomaly that has somewhat the characteritics of the Lockheed Electra!!! Sorry!!!!
Logged

richie conroy

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1412
Re: Sonar Target
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2013, 04:23:59 PM »

Hi Randy

I Believe the plane is laying on it's right side tail being nearest to us, The shadow it creates is interesting, And also there appears to be light colored objects to right of anomaly if you look closely

Thank's Richie
We are an echo of the past


Member# 416
 
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 17   Go Up
 

Copyright 2021 by TIGHAR, a non-profit foundation. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be reproduced by xerographic, photographic, digital or any other means for any purpose. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be stored in a retrieval system, copied, transmitted or transferred in any form or by any means, whether electronic, mechanical, digital, photographic, magnetic or otherwise, for any purpose without the express, written permission of TIGHAR. All rights reserved.

Contact us at: info@tighar.org • Phone: 610-467-1937 • Membership formwebmaster@tighar.org

Powered by MySQL SMF 2.0.18 | SMF © 2021, Simple Machines Powered by PHP