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C.W. Herndon

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2012, 04:20:26 PM »

Montel, I would like to see an answer to my question above about transmitting on 500kc.
Woody (former 3316R)
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« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 05:22:39 PM by Bob Lanz »
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Monte Chalmers

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2012, 05:25:31 PM »

Montel, I would like to see an answer to my question above about transmitting on 500kc.
It seems that Amelia didn't know morse code which was necessary to use 500KC

"Morse Code keys
The Electra was originally equipped with two Morse code keys. The evidence suggests that both were left behind. It seems that W.C. Tinus had one and Joe Gurr had the other.

Ric Gillespie, 25 March 1999 Forum.

500 kHz would only carry code and Earhart had [virtually] no knowledge of code and no key with which to send code"
Monte TIGHAR #3597
 
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 05:27:22 PM by Monte Chalmers »
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John Kada

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2012, 05:39:33 PM »


This topic is drifting by these remarks.  This string is not about string vivisection or the character of individual posters, etc.  Please use the PM feature in this forum to take that 'offline' between individuals if such discussions are desired.


Jeff,

Rest assured that this will be my last post on this string. But I do hope you will allow me to respond. I certainly hope you are not saying that my posts on this string have been about the character of individual posters. Clearly that is not true.

The purpose of my posts was to counter the suggestions made on this string that the Klencks were somehow being denigrated when clearly they have not been. It seems to me that worrying about a non-existent slight to the Klencks is where the drift in this string began. If remarks about supposed slights to the Klencks are an acceptable part of this thread then I don't see how asking for evidence of those alleged slights can be considered off topic.

Now, that said, I hope as you do that the thread will focus on the question of how likely it is that Betty would have had a radio capable of receiving distress signals from EA.

 

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pilotart

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2012, 06:45:18 PM »

Montel, I would like to see an answer to my question above about transmitting on 500kc.

C.W.
This may be the site that Montel referred to:


500kc is in the 600 Meter Band and needs a very long antenna, which is what the 250' Trailing Wire (removed after ground loop) was used for.

While in Miami (just prior to her departure) Joe Gurr made some modifications to the Electra's Radio so they could use the HF Antenna (long wire to the Tail Fins and back) for the LF Band 500kc.

500kc was a strictly Morse Code operation and I don't know if that would prevent voice transmissions, but it would have prevented Itaska from receiving voice (unless they had a BFO switch or something).

It was also reported here (AFAIK) that it was this modification that degraded her transmissions on the HF Band and was a cause of stronger than normal harmonics (harmonics are something that all transmitters are designed to suppress).

Art

Montel,

I just sent you a PM... sorry it has no subject (but it was the first one sent by me).
Art Johnson
 
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 07:27:43 PM by pilotart »
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2012, 07:08:27 PM »

Montel, I would like to see an answer to my question above about transmitting on 500kc.
It seems that Amelia didn't know morse code which was necessary to use 500KC

"Morse Code keys
The Electra was originally equipped with two Morse code keys. The evidence suggests that both were left behind. It seems that W.C. Tinus had one and Joe Gurr had the other.

Ric Gillespie, 25 March 1999 Forum.

500 kHz would only carry code and Earhart had [virtually] no knowledge of code and no key with which to send code"

I am aware that the two morse keys were removed from the Electra and that neither AE nor FN was competent with code. I am also aware that a crude form of code can be sent using the push to talk switch on the microphone. I am also aware that the dorsal antenna was not the best in the world for transmitting on any of the frequencies

These do not address my question. The shipboard transmitters were set up to use code on 500kHz and I assume there was something about their circuitry that would not allow voice on that frequency. The Western Electric 13C Transmitter, however, was designed to transmit voice. W.C. Tinus of Bell Telephone Laboratories, the radio engineer who was responsible for the design and installation AE's radio communications equipment at Newark Airport, New Jersey in February 1937 said"....modified a standard three-channel Western Electric equipment of the type then being used by the airlines to provide one channel at 500 kc and the other two at around 3000 and 6000kc...A simple modification also enabled transmission to be made on CW or MCW, as well as voice..." http://tighar.org/wiki/Radio_equipment_on_NR16020 

Since the W.E. 13C Transmitter was made for voice communications, it sounds like from what I am reading, it should have done that on 500 kc as well as 3105 and 6210 kHz. Or am I missing something here?

Thanks for your input Art, but we are not talking about whether Itaska could hear the Electra, but rather whether Betty could hear the Electra.
Woody (former 3316R)
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pilotart

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2012, 08:05:47 PM »

Although it appears that they should have been able to transmit on 500 kc the question would be how strong the signal would be.

The Report for Post Loss does not list Any receptions on 500 kc, but few operators would be expecting voice on that Band.

BTW here is Bob Brandenburg's Report on WE-13C Transmitter Harmonic Power Output if you have not seen it yet.

My recollection of LF was that sometimes it was loud and clear for over 1,000 NM and other times you might lose it in a procedure turn (five miles from the station).

Art Johnson
 
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pilotart

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2012, 08:33:08 PM »

<...>
Since the W.E. 13C Transmitter was made for voice communications, it sounds like from what I am reading, it should have done that on 500 kc as well as 3105 and 6210 kHz. Or am I missing something here?

I suppose that in the desperate situation they were in they might of scrounged 1968' or 492' or 246' of copper wire from the Norwich City and strung it from their Dorsal Antenna up to the highest (insulated) point on the NC and started pounding on that mike key and talked every few minutes as well.

But then there were so many simple, obvious things that did not seem to get done...
Art Johnson
 
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #52 on: July 30, 2012, 09:19:19 PM »

I was trying to be serious Art. ???

I never lost a LF, NDB, signal during any of the ADF, ILS or LOC approaches that I made.

And yes, "...there were so many simple, obvious things that did not seem to get done..." :(
Woody (former 3316R)
"the watcher"
 
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Andrew M McKenna

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #53 on: July 31, 2012, 01:48:03 AM »

OK, so here is a question for you radio gurus.

In the diagram of Betty's antenna set up found here

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/30_BettyHarmonic/figure1.html

Her antenna passes under the utility lines that are set between the properties.  I'm assuming this as it was at the top of a 15' pole, and I'm guessing the power lines were higher.

I'm not a radio guy, but I do know that sometimes power lines can amplify and distort signals.  My experience with this comes from DFing ELT signals.  We're taught to avoid power lines when DFing due to the false signal directions that can result.  I've heard some really odd stories about ELT / practice beacon signals being heard way off from where they should have been received, carried long distances along power lines.  If you really want a challenging training DF, put the beacon under the high tension wires.

What are the odds that this set up could / would affect the reception of short wave on the upper bands on Betty's radio?

This of course is pure speculation, but such phenomena are known to occur.

Andrew
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 06:53:58 AM by Andrew M McKenna »
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #54 on: July 31, 2012, 03:52:35 AM »


I also don't think that Ric was making anything up about Power Company 'giving' employees expensive radios, but I can see where they would have had an 'employee purchase' program with manufacturers of appliances, the $750 Stratosphere 1000 had a "distributor's price" of $270 and the Power Company could get that price for its employees.  Ric was replying to Eric's question about Betty having a Scott, which was the radio that killed the Stratospheric.

According to the this letter from the president of Zenith, Eugene McDonald (attached), the Stratospheres were snapped up by the Zenith distributors so it appears unlikely (at least to me) that there would have been any left over for a power company store.
Quote

Unlike what Gary wrote, there were other radios available with those 'ultra short wave' bands available selling for under $200.  Zenith was just one quality brand and this is one of theirs @ $185 retail and Zenith's entire line of 15-tube models tuned 4 bands instead of the 3 offered in the 9 and 12-tube models.  The additional “ultra” band, as signified by the “U” in the model number, also adds a fourth shutter to the dial. All of the 15-tube sets can tune from 540kc-44,870kc.  (This "shutter" is why Gary thought that the Stratosphere in his video was the normal broadcast band only.)

The radio that you directed us to is a 'Shutter Dial" model and the "Shutter Dial" did not come out until 1938. See the video here at the 46 second mark to see how it worked. Also you can see additional photos of the Zenith radios here.

The $750.00 price for a 25 tube Stratosphere constitutes a very high portion of Mr. Klenck's annual pay. We now know that Mr. Klenck was a bookkeeper making $1,700 per year so that $750.00 is 44% of his annual salary. A new hire bookkeeper today starts at about $40,000 so a similar proportion of today's bookkeeper's pay would equal $17,650.00 and I doubt the a bookkeeper today would spend that kind of money for a hobby or entertainment appliance.

But, it turns out that there were actually three different models of the Stratosphere available during the 1935-1938 time period. Two of these models had only 16 tubes and had coverage limited to only 23,000 kcs, not high enough to hear Earhart on 24,840 kcs, almost 2,000 kcs higher than these radios tuned. Only the much more expensive 25 tube Stratosphere tuned high enough to hear Earhart. You can see the information on all three models of the Stratosphere here. Look at the pictures of each, they all have "alcoves" in their cabinets.

We also now know that he rented his previous residence for $15.00 a month making the $750.00 equal more than four year's worth of rent.

We have also recently found out that the Klencks bought their own house by 1940, less than three years later, they had been renting the 1937 house. This house cost $3,500.00 so the $750.00 price tag is the same as one-fifth the cost of their new house. I remember when I bought my house that I had to save for several years to get the down payment together and that meant no travel on vacations and no large expenditures on hobby equipment (Ma LaPook would have killed me) and I think that this is the common experience (at least it was prior to the last real estate bubble) so I believe it is reasonable to infer that Mr. Klenck would have faced the same financial pressures. If Mr. Klenck purchased a shortwave radio it makes a lot of sense that he would have purchased a less expensive and less capable model, one that didn't have coverage above that of the common shortwave radios, not above 18,000 kcs. See the attached excerpt from the January 1938 "Radio Index" which basically advises that there is no reason to spend additional money on a radio to get any higher frequency coverage since all the international shortwave bands are covered by the common shortwave radios. I know people who lived through the Depression and they all learned frugality which they still practice to this day, it was a hard lesson learned.

So what I have reasonably inferred from all of this evidence is:

1. That Mr. Klenck had some type of shortwave radio.
2. That it is extremely unlikely that he had a 25 tube Stratosphere.
3. That it is possible that he had a 16 tube Stratosphere.
4. That is is very unlikely that he had any other very expensive model that covered 24,840 kcs.

So that's my position. From reading your posts it appears that in your opinion, Betty mentioning an "alcove" trumps all other evidence to the contrary and has convinced you that she was listening to a 25 tube Stratosphere but you may want to re-evaluate your reliance on this because the 16 tube models also had "alcoves."  So we each have reasons for our conclusions. Others can make up their own minds.

gl
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 04:57:27 AM by Gary LaPook »
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John Joseph Barrett

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #55 on: July 31, 2012, 07:23:40 AM »

I'm no expert on shortwave radios or the propagation of radio waves, but I have first-hand experience with different classes of people and what they will spend their money on. I police in a suburb of Washington, DC, that has several areas of different economic classes. Some average to above average and some poverty/section 8. One of these less afluent areas contains an apartment complex which had a large number of low income units and was definately not a great place to live. Within this area, however, were a number of residents who chose to have high dollar cars while living basically in squalor. I'm talking about high-end Porsches, BMW's, and Jaguars. These were probably meant more as a status symbol (or owned by franchisees in the local drug trade) but could have simply been something that the owners always dreamed of having. If Betty's father really wanted an expensive radio, it is not inconceivable that he bought one while sacrificing other luxuries, like a bigger house. To each their own. For me, the question is, was there a radio available to Betty that could have received a signal from AE/FN, even if it took a miracle for that to happen? However unlikely, I think that it has been shown to have been possible, at least in theory. LTM. -John
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #56 on: July 31, 2012, 07:34:49 AM »

John, Thanks for bringing this up. I can remember, when I was a kid waaay back in the 1950s, that there were shacks in areas of the south that had TV antennas and a Caddy in the drive. We were middle class and barely knew what TV was. ???
Woody (former 3316R)
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John Balderston

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #57 on: July 31, 2012, 08:47:02 AM »

Although it appears that they should have been able to transmit on 500 kc the question would be how strong the signal would be. . .

I think Art's comments in this post are progress towards answering Woody's question.   If we can model 500 kcs transmission with the WE-13C and Gurr's adjusted dorsal wire array we should get a sense of harmonic structure and amplitude.
John Balderston TIGHAR #3451R
 
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #58 on: July 31, 2012, 09:27:30 AM »

Thanks John, that's what I was hoping one of our radio experts would do.
Woody (former 3316R)
"the watcher"
 
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pilotart

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #59 on: July 31, 2012, 10:58:58 AM »

Gary,

Thank you for such an excellent post with such great links!


I also don't think that Ric was making anything up about Power Company 'giving' employees expensive radios, but I can see where they would have had an 'employee purchase' program with manufacturers of appliances, the $750 Stratosphere 1000 had a "distributor's price" of $270 and the Power Company could get that price for its employees.  Ric was replying to Eric's question about Betty having a Scott, which was the radio that killed the Stratospheric.

According to the this letter from the president of Zenith, Eugene McDonald (attached), the Stratospheres were snapped up by the Zenith distributors so it appears unlikely (at least to me) that there would have been any left over for a power company store.

Notice that McDonald says that performance was no better that the 11 or 12 tube sets.
Click on my link [a "distributor's price" of $270] from Reply #32 quoted above to open the pdf site that also contains that McDonald letter.  I am also attaching an xps word file with ...the rest of the story (it starts at the next page from the letter in your pdf).  On the first page (of the attachment), you can see that 73 out of those first 100 orders were canceled.  Just above Lizzies promo photo on second page read "...March of 1935, EH Scott introduced... "Allwave 23" ... price ranged from $179.50 to 217.50  (this would have been my choice and the public agreed).  Page four details reception problems on Ultra SW and that may be why after the first 100 sets, they reduced lowered USW from 63 MHz down to 45 MHz and then EH Scott hit them again. 
On page six:
Quote
the inventory of packed Stratospheres on hand in finished goods had climbed to an intolerable level
It had been my vision (even before reading the above); McDonald has his warehouse overstocked and not wanting to promote a 'Sale' on his flagship model, would be especially open to a 'quiet' deal with FPL for its employees.  On page seven we see McDonald is really getting concerned with two strong letters just before Christmas of 1936 and I'm sure Jimmy Rasmussen would be happy to talk with FPL

Quote

Unlike what Gary wrote, there were other radios available with those 'ultra short wave' bands available selling for under $200.  Zenith was just one quality brand and this is one of theirs @ $185 retail and Zenith's entire line of 15-tube models tuned 4 bands instead of the 3 offered in the 9 and 12-tube models.  The additional “ultra” band, as signified by the “U” in the model number, also adds a fourth shutter to the dial. All of the 15-tube sets can tune from 540kc-44,870kc.  (This "shutter" is why Gary thought that the Stratosphere in his video was the normal broadcast band only.)

Quote
The radio that you directed us to is a 'Shutter Dial" model and the "Shutter Dial" did not come out until 1938. See the video here at the 46 second mark to see how it worked. Also you can see additional photos of the Zenith radios here.

Thank you for that video detailing the "Shutter Dial".  I had mentioned it because I was sure that the Zenith in your video had short wave and did not know why it was not seen on the dial.

I had chosen the 1938 model (15U269) because Zenith usually had their coming 'year-model' available by mid-year.  Your see additional photos of the Zenith radios here. has a better choice: 1937 Model 12-U-159
If you wanted Zenith's "top-of-the-line" (and couldn't afford the Stratosphere models), the 12-U-159 was it. At $175.00
for less money, 12-U-158 listed at $149.95 and it also tunes up to 54mHz.
Quote
Ric posted: 
- Betty says that her family was often the first in the neighborhood to have new electrical appliances.
I do agree with you that I might have had higher priorities over a fancy radio, to me the Big Deal with the strat' was the fancy cabinetry and superb High Fidelity, but then I would be shopping more for receiver performance, which was Scott all the way!   

Quote
The $750.00 price for a 25 tube Stratosphere constitutes a very high portion of Mr. Klenck's annual pay. We now know that Mr. Klenck was a bookkeeper making $1,700 per year so that $750.00 is 44% of his annual salary. A new hire bookkeeper today starts at about $40,000 so a similar proportion of today's bookkeeper's pay would equal $17,650.00 and I doubt the a bookkeeper today would spend that kind of money for a hobby or entertainment appliance.

But, it turns out that there were actually three different models of the Stratosphere available during the 1935-1938 time period. Two of these models had only 16 tubes and had coverage limited to only 23,000 kcs, not high enough to hear Earhart on 24,840 kcs, almost 2,000 kcs higher than these radios tuned. Only the much more expensive 25 tube Stratosphere tuned high enough to hear Earhart. You can see the information on all three models of the Stratosphere here. Look at the pictures of each, they all have "alcoves" in their cabinets.

Yes, they match Betty's physical description and Betty (I'm sure) never mentioned a 10 meter band....  Also notice that they both have a "weather band" (that their big brother does not) covering 153kHz to 519kHz and C.W. Herndon happens to be researching if Earhart could have been heard on 500mHz...

Quote
We also now know that he rented his previous residence for $15.00 a month making the $750.00 equal more than four year's worth of rent.

We have also recently found out that the Klencks bought their own house by 1940, less than three years later, they had been renting the 1937 house. This house cost $3,500.00 so the $750.00 price tag is the same as one-fifth the cost of their new house. I remember when I bought my house that I had to save for several years to get the down payment together and that meant no travel on vacations and no large expenditures on hobby equipment (Ma LaPook would have killed me) and I think that this is the common experience (at least it was prior to the last real estate bubble) so I believe it is reasonable to infer that Mr. Klenck would have faced the same financial pressures. If Mr. Klenck purchased a shortwave radio it makes a lot of sense that he would have purchased a less expensive and less capable model, one that didn't have coverage above that of the common shortwave radios, not above 18,000 kcs. See the attached excerpt from the January 1938 "Radio Index" which basically advises that there is no reason to spend additional money on a radio to get any higher frequency coverage since all the international shortwave bands are covered by the common shortwave radios. I know people who lived through the Depression and they all learned frugality which they still practice to this day, it was a hard lesson learned.

So what I have reasonably inferred from all of this evidence is:

1. That Mr. Klenck had some type of shortwave radio.
2. That it is extremely unlikely that he had a 25 tube Stratosphere.
3. That it is possible that he had a 16 tube Stratosphere.
4. That is is very unlikely that he had any other very expensive model that covered 24,840 kcs.

So that's my position. From reading your posts it appears that in your opinion, Betty mentioning an "alcove" trumps all other evidence to the contrary and has convinced you that she was listening to a 25 tube Stratosphere but you may want to re-evaluate your reliance on this because the 16 tube models also had "alcoves."  So we each have reasons for our conclusions. Others can make up their own minds.

gl

I know I could think of better choices for the Klenck family, but I don't want to comment on how they handled their finances.

In any case, I'm sure he would never had to pay anywhere near $750 for it.  So the percentages you state would need adjusted.

If the TIGHAR Team just wanted to influence Betty's recollections to "what they wanted" they could have come up with a "more believable" choice than the Zenith Stratosphere 1000Z.

I don't know how critical that 10 meter band was and Radio Index was speaking of many more choices than just the Zenith line.  Could check into other reasons for USW beyond just Foreign Broadcast listening.

I've not looked nearly deep enough to determine that there was not a Stromberg Carlson, RCA, Philco, Crosley or whatever that would fill Betty's description so I must keep an open mind on the subject.
Art Johnson
 
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 11:20:39 AM by pilotart »
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