TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => Radio Reflections => Topic started by: Gary LaPook on July 25, 2012, 12:48:26 AM
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I have attached a recent photo of Betty's house at 2027 Auburn Street and photos of her neighborhood. The house is small, less than eleven hundred square feet. I have also attached a KMZ file that will take you to Auburn Street on Google Earth where you can use Street View to walk down her street. According to Zillow, the appraised value of her house today is about $34,000. (http://www.zillow.com/homes/2027-aubern-st,-st-petersberg-fl_rb/)
gl
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I have attached a recent photo of Betty's house at 2027 Aubern Street and photos of her neighborhood. The house is small, less than eleven hundred square feet. I have also attached a KMZ file that will take you to Aubern Street on Google Earth where you can use Street View to walk down her street. According to Zillow, the appraised value of her house today is about $34,000. (http://www.zillow.com/homes/2027-aubern-st,-st-petersberg-fl_rb/)
Gary L. Good digging. On the Betty subject......I've not seen it but have any of our resident specialists at any time commented on Betty's radio and antenna 'setup'? The reason I wonder about that....I've learned quite a bit about radios/antennas in the last several mos. (since joining
Tighar) So much so that as soon as finances permit, I plan on becoming a 'Ham.' Numerous books have been penned on antennas, alone so I wonder about her 'set' and the antenna type/
configuration. 'Hoping to get some input!
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That’s Auburn Street. I'd never heard of it (but there’s lots of streets I’ve never heard of even in my long life time - So I had a look at it out of curiosity. I’d best describe it as “modest”. In 1937 it was an average place - probably going on 10 years old. My parent’s place was about the same sort of thing at that time. We lived on 16th Avenue South, which is about 3 miles to the East. In St Petersburg all streets run North/South and all avenues run East/West.
Did you have a purpose in detailing what the property is worth?
I was reading about Betty here in the forum where she identified a picture of a Zenith Model 1000Z as the one her father owned. (The radio that she was using to receive messages from AE.) And immediately I questioned the worth of this house because of my view of it . I checked the web for the Zenith Stratosphere model 1000Z. The Model 1000Z was introduced in 1935 and sold for $750.00! It was the state-of-the-art (and probably the reason why TIGHAR took her at her word because it enhances the possibility the reception is true.) The receiver was so pricey that it took Zenith 3 years to sell the 350 that were manufactured! I checked the inflation factor on this amount - that’s $11,969.53 in today’s money for a radio. The 1935 Chevrolet sold for $600.00! It could be the truth that it was a Model 1000Z that she was using, but in a house of this value? Using the inflation checker for your current value for the house of $34,000.00 works out to about $4,000.00 in 1937.
I still believe Betty’s notes, but not using a Zenith 1000Z. . I remember during WW2 that I played around with my family’s Philco radio that was similar looking to the Zenith - had the green “magic-eye” for fine tuning. Not knowing any better, I thought it worked fine - but it must have been junk compared with a $750.00 Zenith Model 1000Z! :D
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The Model 1000Z was introduced in 1935 and sold for $750.00! It was the state-of-the-art (and probably the reason why TIGHAR took her at her word because it enhances the possibility the reception is true.) The receiver was so pricey that it took Zenith 3 years to sell the 350 that were manufactured! I checked the inflation factor on this amount - that’s $11,969.53 in today’s money for a radio. The 1935 Chevrolet sold for $600.00! It could be the truth that it was a Model 1000Z that she was using, but in a house of this value?
For the benefit of anyone joining in reading this thread without benefit of other postings, I'll provide a link to something I posted in another thread (https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,835.msg16704.html#msg16704) -- a ten year-old forum quote from Ric concerning how Betty's father, a man of modest means, came to possess such an expensive bit of 1930s technology.
And Monte: thanks for being the one to correct the spelling of the name of the street where the Klencks lived in St. Petersburg. As a proud alumnus of the university of the same name, I was biting my tongue waiting and hoping someone else would come forth with the right spelling. Now I can say it: War Eagle! (http://www.auburntigers.com/trads/aub-trads-fightsong.html) :)
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That’s Auburn Street. I'd never heard of it (but there’s lots of streets I’ve never heard of even in my long life time - So I had a look at it out of curiosity. I’d best describe it as “modest”. In 1937 it was an average place - probably going on 10 years old. My parent’s place was about the same sort of thing at that time. We lived on 16th Avenue South, which is about 3 miles to the East. In St Petersburg all streets run North/South and all avenues run East/West.
Did you have a purpose in detailing what the property is worth?
I was reading about Betty here in the forum where she identified a picture of a Zenith Model 1000Z as the one her father owned. (The radio that she was using to receive messages from AE.) And immediately I questioned the worth of this house because of my view of it . I checked the web for the Zenith Stratosphere model 1000Z. The Model 1000Z was introduced in 1935 and sold for $750.00! It was the state-of-the-art (and probably the reason why TIGHAR took her at her word because it enhances the possibility the reception is true.) The receiver was so pricey that it took Zenith 3 years to sell the 350 that were manufactured! I checked the inflation factor on this amount - that’s $11,969.53 in today’s money for a radio. The 1935 Chevrolet sold for $600.00! It could be the truth that it was a Model 1000Z that she was using, but in a house of this value? Using the inflation checker for your current value for the house of $34,000.00 works out to about $4,000.00 in 1937.
I still believe Betty’s notes, but not using a Zenith 1000Z. . I remember during WW2 that I played around with my family’s Philco radio that was similar looking to the Zenith - had the green “magic-eye” for fine tuning. Not knowing any better, I thought it worked fine - but it must have been junk compared with a $750.00 Zenith Model 1000Z! :D
You saw where I was going with this.
By my calculation, using the Consumer Price Index, (http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/consumer-price-index-and-annual-percent-changes-from-1913-to-2008/) the conversion factor for July 1937 to June 2012 is 15.8 so their house was only worth about $2,100 and maybe less due to the depression at the time.
Yep, can you imagine what Mrs. Klenck had to say to Mr. Klenck
"YOU DID WHAT!.
YOU SPENT A THIRD OF THE VALUE OF OUR HOUSE FOR A STUPID RADIO!
YOU COULD HAVE PUT TWO CARS IN OUR DRIVEWAY FOR THAT $750!
WITH THAT MONEY WE COULD HAVE MOVED INTO A MUCH NICER HOUSE!
DON'T YOU REMEMBER WE ARE IN A DEPRESSION!"
Betty didn't remember what kind of radio her father had until the TIGHAR people convinced her it was a Zenith Stratosphere. They did this because it was necessary for Brandenburg's harmonic theory which showed the only possible frequency that Betty could have heard Earhart on was 24,840 kcs and only the Stratosphere and a very few other very high priced radios covered frequencies above 20,000 kcs. The Stratosphere had "BAND 5" covering above 20,000 kcs while almost all other shortwave radios only went up to "Band 4." It took Zenith three years to sell 350 of those radios, after Rockefeller, Kennedy, J.P. Morgan, Hearst, Astor, Hughes, Gable and a few others bought their Stratospheres that market reached saturation. To put this in perspective, in 1929 4,000,000 new radios were sold and even in the depression, in 1932, they sold 2,600,000 radios. The average price for a radio in 1933 was only $47.00, you could buy 15 of them for the price of one Stratosphere.
I have attached an excerpt from the January 1938 issue of the "Radio Index." It shows that most shortwave radios only covered up to 18,000 kcs and some expensive ones went up to the 13 meter band which only goes up to 21,850 kcs which is still well below the 24,840 kcs of Brandenburg's theory.
You could buy almost two cars for the price of one Stratosphere. Some examples:
1936 Nash four-door sedan -- $475
1937 Studebaker Cruising sedan -- $475
1937 Ford sedan, two-door -- $395
1936 Plymouth two-door -- $375
1936 Dodge 2-door touring sedan -- $365
1936 Ford "Fordor" sedan -- $359
"Last week the Social Security Board announced that for 30,165,694 U. S. wage earners on its rolls during 1937 average pay was $890 a year." Time Magazine, April 17, 1939.
It would take almost a full year's wages of an average worker in 1937 to buy the radio that TIGHAR claims that Betty had! The Klenck house and the neighborhood were not that of a wealthy family so even if Mr. Klenck earned a bit more than the average worker (and we have no reason to believe that) it would still have taken almost all of his year's income to buy that radio and TIGHAR expects us to believe this bunk! As my kid would say, "I don't think so."
I think is was quite clever of Ric to come up with his story, that Mr. Klenck's employer, the electric company, subsidised the purchase of electric appliances for their employees so that those employees would use more electricity. Let's try that business model. Should the electric company buy one radio for Mr. Klenck who will then use one unit of electric power or should the company buy 15 radios for the same price and reward 15 different employees who will then use 15 units of electricity? Boy, what a tough business decision? O.K. as the president of the electric company my decision is that we go with the second plan.
So, it appears that facts and logic lead to the reasonable conclusion that Betty did not have a radio that could receive 24,840 kcs so it was impossible for her to have heard Earhart as Brandenburg claims.
gl
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I have attached a recent photo of Betty's house at 2027 Aubern Street and photos of her neighborhood. The house is small, less than eleven hundred square feet. I have also attached a KMZ file that will take you to Aubern Street on Google Earth where you can use Street View to walk down her street. According to Zillow, the appraised value of her house today is about $34,000. (http://www.zillow.com/homes/2027-aubern-st,-st-petersberg-fl_rb/)
Gary L. Good digging. On the Betty subject......I've not seen it but have any of our resident specialists at any time commented on Betty's radio and antenna 'setup'? The reason I wonder about that....I've learned quite a bit about radios/antennas in the last several mos. (since joining
Tighar) So much so that as soon as finances permit, I plan on becoming a 'Ham.' Numerous books have been penned on antennas, alone so I wonder about her 'set' and the antenna type/
configuration. 'Hoping to get some input!
Here is a link to a diagram of her antenna (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/30_BettyHarmonic/figure1.html).
gl
KA9UHH
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Well, yeah, if you order your facts and interpretations specifically to reach the conclusion you are trying to reach, then sure. It's a fun game, that. But I think you're guilty of what you accuse TIGHAR of -- thinking that you've proved something when you've really just raised some good questions. You kinda jumped the shark, there, in my opinion.
Now, taken objectively, you've raised a good question: did Ric just pull that thing about Betty's dad out of his butt? What's your basis for making this assertion? You're basically saying that Ric planted the idea of Betty having this particular radio and made up the rationale for them owning such an expensive radio. OK, what's your evidence for this? Or is just a situation where you find the whole tale unbelievable, and you think the whole thing is a crock, and are looking to put forth a scenario that marginally fits the facts that supports that view?
If the latter, then how is that different from what you suggest Ric and TIGHAR are doing? I honestly don't see the difference. It doesn't make you wrong, by the way. It just means I don't think you've really proved anything other than that you have a preconceived opinion that you are looking for evidence to support.
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Now, taken objectively, you've raised a good question: did Ric just pull that thing about Betty's dad out of his butt? What's your basis for making this assertion? You're basically saying that Ric planted the idea of Betty having this particular radio and made up the rationale for them owning such an expensive radio. OK, what's your evidence for this?
"It was important to know the make and model of Betty’s radio, because receiver sensitivity and tuning range are important factors in evaluating whether she could have heard signals on a harmonic. Betty did not recall the make and model of her radio (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/30_BettyHarmonic/30_Bettyharmonic.html), but she provided information that led to a determination that it probably was a Zenith model 1000Z “Stratosphere.”4 When shown a color photograph of a Zenith 1000Z that had been restored to new condition, Betty positively identified it as the model she had used."
And that "positive identification" took place more than sixty years after the event!
Gee, I wonder how that photo identification was done? When asking a witness to identify a suspect with photographs there is a certain method that you must use to avoid false positives. If you don't follow the right procedure the court will throw out the identification. You don't show just one photo and ask "is this the guy that robbed you"?
"Is this the radio you had"?
"Well, I don't know."
"Could this have been the radio"?
"I suppose so."
To do a proper photo lineup you give the witness the photos one at a time and ask him if he can identify the person each time. The stack of photos has many dummy photos at the end so that the witness doesn't know how many photos he will be seeing, he doesn't know he is coming to the end of the stack. If he doesn't identify a person he doesn't get a second chance to see the photos because a second time he knows how many photos there are and will be tempted to pick one prior to running out of photos. Also, you do not spread out a group of photos because the witness will be tempted to pick one of them, maybe the one that looks the most like the person to be identified but not necessarily the right person. Witnesses are notorious for making false identifications unless these procedures are carefully followed.
So, how many photos were shown to Betty? I'm going to go way out on a limb here but I bet she wasn't shown any photos of common shortwave radios that didn't cover 24,840 kcs.
But the basic point is that if she didn't have a radio that covered 24,840 kcs then no matter how much tap dancing Brandeburg does, Betty didn't hear Earhart. And do you really believe her father spent his year's wages on the radio? Do you think his wife let him? Come on, put the Kool-Aid down and step away from the pitcher!
gl
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We assume that Betty's dad bought the radio. We don't know that as fact unless someone can provide a reciept for it. He may have bartered for it. This was common during the Great Depression, just as it is in todays recession. Check out the local pawn shops and you'll see a lot of high end electronics for cheap. It may have been a gift. He may have stole it for all we know.
My dad was a Sargent in the Army in the 50's, and probably made less than Betty's dad did, yet we had two high end Zenith radios that were capable of short wave reception. It was really the only entertainment we had. Didn't have a T.V. until the mid 60's.
It seems obvious to me that Mr. Klecht was really "into" electronics judging from the long wire antennae aray that he built. I doubt I would go through that trouble and expense for a lesser radio. Just sayin'.
LTM,
Dave
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Hum----looking objectively at Gary's thoughts here for a second------not disputing or siding with him, but if her radio was NOT capable of reaching the frequency harmonic to hear Amelia, then how did she do it? Gary does bring up a valid question, guys. From what is known, the 'high end' radios that would reach that frequency were rather expensive. Ok, fine. How Betty's father acquired it is not the relevent point. That the radio in question 'could' reach that frequency is. So----knowing the model in question IS relevant. I'm quite certain that information is here somewhere. Showing someone a picture may not be the best way. ( Some people think a G150 Gulfstream is a Lear).
Too bad we dont have the radio.
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We assume that Betty's dad bought the radio. We don't know that as fact unless someone can provide a reciept for it. He may have bartered for it. This was common during the Great Depression, just as it is in todays recession. Check out the local pawn shops and you'll see a lot of high end electronics for cheap. It may have been a gift. He may have stole it for all we know.
My dad was a Sargent in the Army in the 50's, and probably made less than Betty's dad did, yet we had two high end Zenith radios that were capable of short wave reception. It was really the only entertainment we had. Didn't have a T.V. until the mid 60's.
It seems obvious to me that Mr. Klecht was really "into" electronics judging from the long wire antennae aray that he built. I doubt I would go through that trouble and expense for a lesser radio. Just sayin'.
LTM,
Dave
Yep, he traded his first born son for it (somebody should ask Betty if she remembers her older brother suddenly disappearing around this time) :D And there is a big difference between twenty-five cents worth of wire strung across the back of his yard and a radio that cost one-third the price of his house. That wire most likely was connected to a $47.00 common radio. And while we are looking for the receipt for Mr. Klenck's radio, how about Ric coming up with some documentation for his assertion that his employer bought twelve thousand dollar (2012 dollars) radios and appliances for its employees.
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Putting Gary's attitude and outbursts aside. I mean I don't agree with the "attack" sounding comments I have to say he does bring up some good questions here. One's that I don't think can be just brushed off. I want to believe she can be found (She = AE), I want to think that Betty is not full of fantasy. But these are valid points that are here and can't be brushed off.
If she didn't have the radio required to hear these things isn't it possible she thought she heard something? I mean paranormal investigators hear things all the time on their recordings when they do ghost hunts. Could she of picked up a show crossed up with a news report about AE? I know it is a bit out there but so is Betty, in South Florida, hearing AE, in the Central Pacific. I know it is possible, I have myself listened to Mexican and Central American broadcasts from my upstate New York home. But I don't about this one...
I am not an expert, and I will not pretend to know enough about this to formulate a valid answer. But it all makes you wonder.
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kinda what i was thinking. Gary has a legimate question, in my view. I dont know the answer. But if the radio wasnt capable of getting to the harmonic frequency, it would be interesting to find out how she heard what she did. The radio guys will have to figure that one out.
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I still have confidence in the Pan Am professional communications staff and their equipment, experience and abilities. It would be a bonus if it could be shown that Betty was able to pick up AE transmissions but, Gary does have a pretty good point based on the known facts.
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We assume that Betty's dad bought the radio. We don't know that as fact unless someone can provide a reciept for it. He may have bartered for it.
LTM,
Dave
As to bartering, there is a big difference between,
"Hey Joe, I'll trade you my push lawn mower that you like if you will help me install a new clutch in my Chevy."
And,
"Hey Joe, I'll trade you the back bedroom and the kitchen of my house for that radio of yours."
And how would this work? First Mr. Klenck had to find someone who had a Stratosphere radio and, since it took from the end of 1935 through 1938 to unload the 350 units, there were probably only about 150 such radios in the whole United States in July of 1937 so it is quite likely that there was not even one of them in St. Petersberg. From the looks of the neighborhood nobody else on his block could have afforded one, so who did Klenck barter it from? What did he have to trade that was worth that much money? And there was no Ebay to allow searching a wider market. Also, there were no credit cards so people couldn't just go out and buy things that they couldn't afford, things that they didn't have the cash to pay for. Remember the old saying, "cash on the barrel head"? Especially during the Depression.
"In early 1933, Commander Eugene F. McDonald, the President of Zenith Corporation, directed his engineers to design and build one of the world's most sophisticated radios. In late 1935, the Zenith Stratosphere model 1000Z would start rolling off the assembly lines."
These radios were not made until 1935, when the U.S. was already in the bottom of the Depression so very few, only the very wealthy, could have afforded one. It is NOT as though some well-to-do had purchased one prior to the 1929 stock market crash, lost his shirt in that crash, and was then forced to part with the radio at a distressed price at some pawnshop. By 1935 those who had survived the crash with their wealth intact were the only ones who could buy the Stratosphere.
It is also possible that Betty simply mistook the photo of the Stratosphere shown to her by TIGHAR for another, less expensive and less capable, Zenith radio. Zenith made over 40 models with prices from $20.00 to $750.00 and they incorporated similar visual features.
"In 1936, Zenith would take key features from the 1000Z and transfer them to their newest line of radios. The standout feature used on most of Zenith's 1936 radios was the large, easy to read, black "Magnavision" dial."
gl
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It is also possible that Betty simply mistook the photo of the Stratosphere shown to her by TIGHAR for another, less expensive and less capable, Zenith radio. Zenith made over 40 models with prices from $20.00 to $750.00 and they incorporated similar visual features.
"In 1936, Zenith would take key features from the 1000Z and transfer them to their newest line of radios. The standout feature used on most of Zenith's 1936 radios was the large, easy to read, black "Magnavision" dial."
gl
I would bet highly on that prospect, much as I already stated.
Which leaves the problem of how Betty could have gotten those signals the way Brandenburg says - which means that equation is more in question than 'Betty's house' and the attending features. ???
And as I've already said - it's a strange world - I don't doubt she somehow got such signals on a 'lesser' radio. Can't explain it - nor can anyone prove to me it 'can't happen' - just maybe not on the level of harmonic, etc. that we're speaking of.
The problem there is that Brandenburg's computation proves that the only way Betty could have heard Earhart was only on that one frequency, 24,840 kcs.
I believe Betty heard what she reported as faithfully as she could and accept that as fact.
LTM -
I do too, it's just that she is mistaken.
gl
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Here is a link to a youtube video showing a Zenith Stratosphere radio.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDXDG-uoCrA
Look at it carefully, this is most likely the radio that Betty had.
Take another look at the video and stop it at the 54 second point and take a close look at the dial. You will see that this is NOT a shortwave radio, it has only one band, the normal broadcast band. Zenith marketing apparently used the name "Stratosphere" for several internally different models with different capabilities. Some of these radios had only 16 tubes but only the 25 tube, five band model, the $750 version, covered "band 5" which was necessary to hear Earhart on 24,840 kcs. I have attached two photos of the five band model, compare it with the radio in the youtube video and it should be clear to you how Betty could be fooled into making an erroneous identification.
Betty was simply led to identify the photo of a 5 band, 25 tube version of the Stratosphere shown to her by TIGHAR as her less expensive and less capable Zenith radio. Zenith made over 40 models with prices from $20.00 to $750.00 and they incorporated similar visual features.
Here are links to two other videos of very similar radios that could also have been mistaken by Betty, neither of which cover "band 5."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifKo-l0fjeE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6JotAzB0tE&feature=fvwrel
gl
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I believe Betty heard what she reported as faithfully as she could and accept that as fact.
I have no way of knowing, as fact, that what Betty heard was indeed AE.
I do still believe there is some chance that it was - and frankly other reports hold more water for that argument to me anyway - especially the Pan Am DF reports.
I think that Gary as usual has made a valid point - also there is too much "belief" in this hypothesis and too little "proved". Essentially attacking Gary for pointing out certain verifiable data is nothing more than silly.
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You saw where I was going with this.
Well, this was all immediately my conclusion when I saw here place last month . I wasn’t buying the high cost of the radio. In fact, in one of the thread about Betty’s notebook I commented that I also can’t accept the reception theory of a fourth harmonic. I was an electronics instructor for many years which included transmitter design. It is taught that transmitter design includes suppression of harmonics for the obvious reason that any power that goes into them is wasted. Also it is taught that power in harmonics diminishes with each successive harmonic - and only up to the 3rd harmonic warrants any consideration . And here at TIGHAR the 4th harmonic is needed to come up with a frequency with propagation qualities that fit. And just like the story that the high-cost radio was made available because of the Florida Power supervisor , the 4th harmonic was made available by faulty modification/service of the Electra transmitter. It is my opinion that Betty’s reception of Earhart falls under the heading of “miracle”. That's possible, isn't it - I believe in miracles.
I’ve been accepting Betty’s notebook only because of the contents of that notebook.
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Didn't Betty say that her father went next door to try to hear the transmission on the neighbor's radio, which was a similar radio but without the extra antenna? So, did the neighbor in this modest neighborhood also have an expensive 5-band Zenith? This seems unlikely to me.
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Didn't Betty say that her father went next door to try to hear the transmission on the neighbor's radio, which was a similar radio but without the extra antenna? So, did the neighbor in this modest neighborhood also have an expensive 5-band Zenith? This seems unlikely to me.
Yeah, that's right. But nothing was mentioned about it other than the neighbor had something that could receive shortwave - and it was put forth that the reason the neighbor didn't hear anything was that there was no outside antenna.
Gary: Have you checked out Betty's address in 1941 at 1815 19th Ave South? (She was there when she did the solo flying - also when she had the car accident and went to Mound Park Hospital). It's just a mile from the old place going East. Looks the same sort of place - not moving up, just a little bigger (the front looks like a converted porch that probably wasn't like that in 1941. It might be they were not owner's but renter's at the Auburn address.
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I believe Betty heard what she reported as faithfully as she could and accept that as fact.
I have no way of knowing, as fact, that what Betty heard was indeed AE.
I do still believe there is some chance that it was - and frankly other reports hold more water for that argument to me anyway - especially the Pan Am DF reports.
I think that Gary as usual has made a valid point - also there is too much "belief" in this hypothesis and too little "proved". Essentially attacking Gary for pointing out certain verifiable data is nothing more than silly.
There is no 'attack' in my statement, but if Gary feels affronted somehow he's free to advise me of it. I find that you continue to provoke unnecessarily by accusing me of 'attack'... 8)
You are entitled to your 'beliefs' - including agreeing with Gary, of course. :P
I gather you are speaking of the 'Betty's House' hypothesis - which is what this string amounts to. It would not remain a 'hypothesis' if it were 'proven'. Gary's position remains 'unproven' as well - which seems to be the core of said 'hypothesis' (this is a fairly narrow point in this string as far as I can tell). In that sense I would fully agree with you - however tantalizing the tale gets here, it remains 'unproven'.
Gee, perhaps this really belongs in 'Alternate Hypotheses' now that I consider all that... ::)
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Gary: Have you checked out Betty's address in 1941 at 1815 19th Ave South? (She was there when she did the solo flying - also when she had the car accident and went to Mound Park Hospital). It's just a mile from the old place going East. Looks the same sort of place - not moving up, just a little bigger (the front looks like a converted porch that probably wasn't like that in 1941. It might be they were not owner's but renter's at the Auburn address.
Yes I did and the house on 19 th ave is 1142 square feet, about the same size as the Auburn house, and Zillow has it appraised at about the same value. That is why Ma Klenck was so mad at Pa Klenck for blowing their life savings on a stupid radio because she wanted to get a better house with that money. :D Here is a photo of the 1815 19th Ave house.
gl
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Didn't Betty say that her father went next door to try to hear the transmission on the neighbor's radio, which was a similar radio but without the extra antenna? So, did the neighbor in this modest neighborhood also have an expensive 5-band Zenith? This seems unlikely to me.
Yep, that's what Betty said.......sixty years later. There is no other confirmation of her story. She didn't write that in her notebook.
gl
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You saw where I was going with this.
Well, this was all immediately my conclusion when I saw here place last month . I wasn’t buying the high cost of the radio. In fact, in one of the thread about Betty’s notebook I commented that I also can’t accept the reception theory of a fourth harmonic. I was an electronics instructor for many years which included transmitter design. It is taught that transmitter design includes suppression of harmonics for the obvious reason that any power that goes into them is wasted. Also it is taught that power in harmonics diminishes with each successive harmonic - and only up to the 3rd harmonic warrants any consideration . And here at TIGHAR the 4th harmonic is needed to come up with a frequency with propagation qualities that fit. And just like the story that the high-cost radio was made available because of the Florida Power supervisor , the 4th harmonic was made available by faulty modification/service of the Electra transmitter. It is my opinion that Betty’s reception of Earhart falls under the heading of “miracle”. That's possible, isn't it - I believe in miracles.
I’ve been accepting Betty’s notebook only because of the contents of that notebook.
Adding to the "miracle" aspect of this story, none of the other claimed receptions occurred on 6,210 kcs, they were all on 3105 kcs. Since 24,840 is the 8th harmonic of 3,105, Brandenburg realized that no one would buy Betty having heard a signal on the 8th harmonic so he has Earhart, this one time only, transmitting on 6,210 so he could show Betty only having to hear a 4th harmonic signal.
gl
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Yes I did and the house on 19 th ave is 1142 square feet, about the same size as the Auburn house, and Zillow has it appraised at about the same value. That is why Ma Klenck was so mad at Pa Klenck for blowing their life savings on a stupid radio because she wanted to get a better house with that money. :D Here is a photo of the 1815 19th Ave house.
gl
yeah - that's the house - orange :D But my thought was that since the move was only one mile for a house about the same size, it was not a convience issue. They may have been tenants , and further supports it was not a Model 1000z.
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Didn't Betty say that her father went next door to try to hear the transmission on the neighbor's radio, which was a similar radio but without the extra antenna? So, did the neighbor in this modest neighborhood also have an expensive 5-band Zenith? This seems unlikely to me.
Here are pictures of the next door neighbors' houses, 2021 Auburn and 2047 Auburn. Now which one of these neighbors do you think also had a twelve thousand dollar radio? (2012 dollars.)
gl
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Adding to the "miracle" aspect of this story, none of the other claimed receptions occurred on 6,210 kcs, they were all on 3105 kcs. Since 24,840 is the 8th harmonic of 3,105, Brandenburg realized that no one would buy Betty having heard a signal on the 8th harmonic so he has Earhart, this one time only, transmitting on 6,210 so he could show Betty only having to hear a 4th harmonic signal.
gl
Your right about that, no way I would ever accept an 8th harmonic!
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It is my opinion that Betty’s reception of Earhart falls under the heading of “miracle”.
Betty herself said-
"...this can't be happening!"
19:44 into this Nat. Geo. video-
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/07/120724-amelia-earhart-google-doodle-fred-noonan-115th-nation-science/
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- it smells bad.
I think we can agree that if they 'splashed...' as Gary and a lot of other knowledgeable folks believe, ALL 'post-loss' radio reports are in error.
Until that fact is proven, I'm not ready to discount Betty's Notebook and her story. What 'smells' to me is all this degrading by comparing an address in 2012 (http://www.city-data.com/neighborhood/Highland-Oaks-Neighborhood-Association-Saint-Petersburg-FL.html) with what that neighborhood would have been like long before the Skyway, US-19 and I-275 were built. I'm not saying they were in a 'High-Class' area, but I have no doubt that they could have had a Quality Radio.
This was what Ric posted (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Forum/Forum_Archives/200205.txt) about determining Betty's radio model:...there is a possibility that she could have
heard AE on a Scott rather than on a Zenith.
Eric, NAS North Island, San Diego, Ca.
***************************************************************************
From Ric
Betty's father worked for the power company and, in those days, power companies were
eager to encourge consumers to buy electrical appliances to boost demand. To that
end, they had very attractive arrangements with manufacturers which made it possible
for power company employees to buy new high-end appliances at bargain prices.
Getting these fancy new products out into the neighborhoods was an effective
marketing strategy.
It is Betty's recollection that the radio was a Zenith. A key element in her memory
is a cabinet stye that provided an opening in the front of the set below the tuning
dial and knobs. She used to lie on her back with her head inside the alcove and reach
up to turn the tuning knob blindly, just cruising for something interesting. That's
the reason she can't tell us for sure just where on the dial she found Amelia.
=========================================================================
I also don't think that Ric was making anything up about Power Company 'giving' employees expensive radios, but I can see where they would have had an 'employee purchase' program with manufacturers of appliances, the $750 Stratosphere 1000 had a "distributor's price" of $270 (http://www.hlara.org/info/Special%20Christmas%20Edition%20Radiogram%202007.pdf) and the Power Company could get that price for its employees. Ric was replying to Eric's question about Betty having a Scott, which was the radio that killed the Stratospheric. (http://radiostratosphere.com/zsite/behind-the-dial/the-radio-war.html)
The Scott would have been a much better choice and it could have had a similar console for Betty to relax under. Its retail was under $200 and distributor costs ran 50-60% of retail in that price range and again the Power Company could have had it in the 'program'.
Unlike what Gary wrote, there were other radios available with those 'ultra short wave' bands available selling for under $200. Zenith was just one quality brand and this is one of theirs @ $185 retail (http://www.oldradiozone.com/Z_15U269_ad.html) and Zenith's entire line of 15-tube models tuned 4 bands instead of the 3 offered in the 9 and 12-tube models. The additional “ultra” band, as signified by the “U” in the model number, also adds a fourth shutter to the dial. All of the 15-tube sets can tune from 540kc-44,870kc. (This "shutter" is why Gary thought that the Stratosphere in his video was the normal broadcast band only.)
There is no doubt that if I were the ghosts of those Coast Guard / Navy searchers defending why we discounted all those post-loss radio calls, I would want no one but Gary LaPook defending me. 8)
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Take another look at the video and stop it at the 54 second point and take a close look at the dial. You will see that this is NOT a shortwave radio
This is not a very important comment, but your link took me to what is supposed to be a Model 1000Z..........and it looks like parts of the dial only lights when the various bands are selected. I can see what you say at "54" is only the AM band showing. But back up to about "50".... you can faintly see other bands (area not lighted above the AM band).
P.S. see pilotart entry "(This "shutter" is why Gary thought that the Stratosphere in his video was the normal broadcast band only.)" This "shutter" thing has got to be the same thing I'm talking about. apparently mashed areas behind the dial with dedicated display lighting.
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all this degrading by comparing an address in 2012 (http://www.city-data.com/neighborhood/Highland-Oaks-Neighborhood-Association-Saint-Petersburg-FL.html) with what that neighborhood would have been like long before the Skyway, US-19 and I-275 were built. I'm not saying they were in a 'High-Class' area, but I have no doubt that they could have had a Quality Radio
The whole point of the thread is that a Model 1000Z was perhaps not likely based upon what we see in the house. Not that there is anything wrong with the house. In fact the number 3 reply by me in this subject was that the house is "average". Yes, St Petersburg today ia nothing like it would have been in 1937. Your mention of the Skyway bridge and the roadways, perhaps you know about St Pete. My memory is limited about the 30s (1935 was my start) - but lots about the 40s. The business district on Central Avenue started at the bay and ended about 9th Street! (called MLK Blvd now) - Webbs City was on 9th Street. I didn't know about Auburn Street (Betty's 1937 address which is about 2 miles West of 9th Street) until reading about it here. Her place must have been like going out of town. :D
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First time poster, but I can help with this one I think. It feels rather odd to be retrieving this information on the family of someone still alive, I must admit.
The 1930 US Census shows the family living at 668 41st Ave, St Petersburg and specifies they rent the dwelling for $15 per month (the value of neighbouring homes actually owned by the occupants were around the $3-3.5k mark). Father was working as a meter reader and the family did not own a radio set.
The 1935 Florida State Census shows them living at 2027 Auburn and specifies they rent the property, although it does not show what price they pay. The father is listed now as a 'Book-keeper' and his degree of education is listed as 'high' (presumably high school).
The neighbour in 1935 was a Henry F. Clanton, a 30 year old engineer, with a wife and two children. This is quite possibly the neighbour Mr. Klenck allegedly ran next door to see regarding the radio broadcasts.
The 1940 US Census shows them owning the house at 1815 19th South, value $3500. Mr. Klenck is working 42 hours a week as a "book-keeper - electric power" and his income for 1939 was $1700.
Hope this helps!
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Thank you Robert and to put those numbers in perspective:
http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/1930s.html (http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/1930s.html)In 1930 the average income per year was $1,970.00 and by 1939 was $1,730.00
In 1930 average new house cost $7,145.00 and by 1939 was $3,800.00
Incomes in Florida are usually below the national average; it's called "paying for the sunshine" :)
And for Monte,
My earliest recall was visiting a family just a little bit west of there in 1960, where I-275 is now, they were not poor by any means. I just don't think it is reasonable to judge the historic 'wealth' of a neighborhood by what it has become 75 years later, especially where you have suffered the disruption of those highway systems and corridors mentioned...
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Great info, Robert.
I thought that they might be renting. One question we were wondering: any brothers or sisters?
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Great info, Robert.
I thought that they might be renting. One question we were wondering: any brothers or sisters?
Hi Monte,
Yes, there was one sister, who would have been 12 in 1937. I'm reluctant to go too far in revealing personal info about people still alive, even though the info. is publicly available. I'll just say she died in 1996, was married (husband died 2002) and had two children, both of whom are also deceased. There are surviving grandchildren.
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A thought about the honor of Betty and her family: I personally think Betty and her family deserve a bit of respect about their lives past (and she's still with us I believe) regardless of what someone thinks of the theory. This impeachment commentary often reaches a bit too far to me in this place - I don't see it as warranted, no matter what one thinks of Brandenburg's or anyone else's odds for such a transmission.
Can you be specific, i.e. quote a disrespectful remark made about the Klencks in this discussion?
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From the first post, the theme of this thread has centered on the idea that because of where the Klenck family lived (supported by 2012 'zillow' values transposed back 75 years) that they could not possibly have afforded a radio capable of receiving Amelia and Fred's distress call.
How would you feel if you saw this posted on the internet about your parents?
"...Zillow has it appraised at about the same value. That is why Ma Klenck was so mad at Pa Klenck for blowing their life savings on a stupid radio because she wanted to get a better house with that money. ..."
"...Yep, he traded his first born son for it (somebody should ask Betty if she remembers her older brother suddenly disappearing around this time) And there is a big difference between twenty-five cents worth of wire strung across the back of his yard and a radio that cost one-third the price of his house. That wire most likely was connected to a $47.00 common radio. And while we are looking for the receipt for Mr. Klenck's radio, how about Ric coming up with some documentation for his assertion that his employer bought twelve thousand dollar (2012 dollars) radios and appliances for its employees."
"...I think is was quite clever of Ric to come up with his story, ..." etc. etc.
There is an earlier thread centered on the idea that Betty fabricated her notebook to profit on the Amelia tragedy. ???
If I were Dana Rudolph, I doubt that I would mention anything about hearing a distress call. :-X
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There is an earlier thread centered on the idea that Betty fabricated her notebook to profit on the Amelia tragedy.
Well so? these things happen and accordingly it is necessary to test everything. I have never thought that the appearance of trustworthiness was a substitute for being trustworthy, well not since I discovered that my parents had lied about Father Christmas. Due diligence is a reasonable approach to every issue where a person's word is influencing the way things are being done. The exact type of radio involved is crucial and if some confusion exists that may indicate that the received broadcast was either a real distress call, a misunderstanding based on a partly heard radio news reenactment or a deliberate hoax then it needs to be resolved. Fred Goerner who was not an idiot discounted the notebook when it was offered to him.
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How would you feel if you saw this posted on the internet about your parents?
"...Zillow has it appraised at about the same value. That is why Ma Klenck was so mad at Pa Klenck for blowing their life savings on a stupid radio because she wanted to get a better house with that money. ..."
"...Yep, he traded his first born son for it (somebody should ask Betty if she remembers her older brother suddenly disappearing around this time) And there is a big difference between twenty-five cents worth of wire strung across the back of his yard and a radio that cost one-third the price of his house. That wire most likely was connected to a $47.00 common radio. And while we are looking for the receipt for Mr. Klenck's radio, how about Ric coming up with some documentation for his assertion that his employer bought twelve thousand dollar (2012 dollars) radios and appliances for its employees."
"...I think is was quite clever of Ric to come up with his story, ..." etc. etc.
There is an earlier thread centered on the idea that Betty fabricated her notebook to profit on the Amelia tragedy. ???
If I were Dana Rudolph, I doubt that I would mention anything about hearing a distress call. :-X
Art,
-It seems rather obvious to me that the first two quotes you cite from Gary are humorous remarks directed towards other Tighar members, not disparaging remarks directed at the Klencks.
-The third remark you cite from Gary refers to Ric, so how does it disparage the Klencks?
-The remarks on earlier threads you mention are not part of this discussion, i.e., this thread.
I think you are over reacting regarding alleged disrespect to the Klencks. In an earlier post on this thread you suggested that there were in fact more affordable radios with the capability to make Betty's 'Miraculous Reception'. I haven't seen Gary or anyone else disagree with you on that point.
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John,
I (and others) have great respect for Gary LaPook and appreciate his many very knowledgeable and well written posts. And I can well understand that with the solid opinion he has about what happened to that Lockheed, he can 'buy' no thought of a genuine post-loss radio message from the lost fliers.
I do believe that has prompted him to go overboard in disrespecting Betty (and then her family) who may now regret ever talking to Ric.
It was a similar dis-respect shown Dana by our government in the early days of July 1937 and that was possibly truly tragic.
I don't think I was over reacting by posting one reply referencing statements that were not true.
I think that that other thread about Betty's possible 'fabrication' is certainly pertinent to this subject. I had one post there describing a 'miracle' radio reception more rare than Betty's. I did not save the QSL and if you looked up my address on Zillow (from fifty years ago), you would see that it is now referred to as "Crime Manor". It would not make me feel good if it was said that I 'fabricated' the story or must be a criminal from my address...
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John,
I (and others) have great respect for Gary LaPook and appreciate his many very knowledgeable and well written posts. And I can well understand that with the solid opinion he has about what happened to that Lockheed, he can 'buy' no thought of a genuine post-loss radio message from the lost fliers.
I do believe that has prompted him to go overboard in disrespecting Betty (and then her family) who may now regret ever talking to Ric.
It was a similar dis-respect shown Dana by our government in the early days of July 1937 and that was possibly truly tragic.
I don't think I was over reacting by posting one reply referencing statements that were not true.
I think that that other thread about Betty's possible 'fabrication' is certainly pertinent to this subject. I had one post there describing a 'miracle' radio reception more rare than Betty's. I did not save the QSL and if you looked up my address on Zillow (from fifty years ago), you would see that it is now referred to as "Crime Manor". It would not make me feel good if it was said that I 'fabricated' the story or must be a criminal from my address...
As long as you were quoting me, why did you choose to leave out these quotes:
"I never said that she "invented" anything. (https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,835.msg15369.html#msg15369)I believe that she heard several different commercial broadcasts as the various signals faded in and out and she retuned her radio and her radio drifted in frequency. One of these broadcasts contained the words "Amelial Earhart" and Betty just wrote down what she was hearing, mixing all of the words from the different broadcasts in her notebook."
"I certainly do not think she is "malevolent." (https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,835.msg15901.html#msg15901)
In case you have misread what I have said in the past, here is a recap. I have said that Betty did not fabricate that notebook, I believe that she wrote down what she heard coming out of her radio and that what she stated when interviewed is what she remembered and believed was the truth. Is that clear?
Now to get to the point I have been trying to make. There is nothing in the original notes on the Earhart pages in her notebook saying that she was listening on shortwave and no mention of way up on the shortwave tuning dial around 25,000 kcs. So that part of the story is based on her memory when interviewed 60 years later, none of us have perfect memories. And we don't know what questions were asked of her and this is the same problem with the Japanese capture eyewitnesses."
"It is also possible that Betty simply mistook (https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,883.msg17248.html#msg17248) the photo of the Stratosphere shown to her by TIGHAR for another, less expensive and less capable, Zenith radio. Zenith made over 40 models with prices from $20.00 to $750.00 and they incorporated similar visual features.
'In 1936, Zenith would take key features from the 1000Z and transfer them to their newest line of radios. The standout feature used on most of Zenith's 1936 radios was the large, easy to read, black 'Magnavision" dial.'"
(And I used the terms "Ma" and "Pa" for their humor value, perhaps you remember with affection, as I do, "Ma and Pa Kettle" from that era.)
gl
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Gary,
Thank you for your reply to my post.
I did not quote your posts from Re: Re: Betty's Notebook - ethics of acceptance because John's question was specific to this thread and although I read that thread as an unwarranted attack on Betty, I would not consider your posts in that thread "overboard" compared to this thread that you started. I had been pleased to see you state that you did not consider Betty to be "malevolent".
I'm only 69 so I did not relate your admittedly humorous post to "Ma and Pa Kettle" ;D. There is really nothing that you wrote that I found "overboard" but rather your theme in this thread to establish that Betty could not possibly listened to a shortwave message in 1937 because her family lived in a location that is today considered a poverty area. I do not consider it valid evidence to link the Klenck home of 1937 with what that address implies today.
As for TIGHAR's methodology in validating Betty's notebook, I would refer readers to Ric's posts (Something New) (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Forum/Forum_Archives/200009.txt) starting at 28 Sept 2000 and continuing through October (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Forum/Forum_Archives/200010.txt) and beyond as well as the other papers posted on this site. (Just click a highlighted word to open a link and use 'find' for the third "Betty" to see the post.)
The best 'read' would be Chapter Seventeen of Finding Amelia (http://www.amazon.com/Finding-Amelia-Story-Earhart-Disappearance/dp/1591143195) which could be found at your local library.
I do believe Betty was truthful to Ric and her photo of her FIN's Zenith establishes the brand. Her recall of the 'alcove' limits the model to a Stratosphere as Zenith patented that Console. Some of their lower priced radios did have 'Big Black Dials' but not that distinctive alcove.
As far as Kenneth Klenck possibly owning a genuine Zenith Stratosphere 1000Z I have pointed out that his cost would have been far less than $750. That "twenty-five cents worth of wire..." (https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,883.msg17228.html#msg17228) was sold by Zenith for $5.00 and Kenneth may have bought it for less then $0.25 considering his connection.
Eric, NAS North Island, San Diego's mention of a Scott (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Forum/Forum_Archives/200205.txt) caught my eye because a Scott (http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Radex/Radex%20109%2037%2005.pdf) would outperform the Zenith.
It was popular in those days to purchase a top-line Scott (http://hhscott.com/e_h__scott.htm) chassis at comparatively low cost (under $200) and install it in a Console that had its chassis outmoded or failed, but Betty's recall of that Console Alcove really does point to the Zenith.
Your explanation of her creating her notebook from a compilation of Commercial Radio Broadcasts and her imagination does not hold water for me at all, unless you think that her Dad, Mom and neighbors Russ & Virgie Rhodes were also fooled by what she was hearing and if it was 'Short-Wave'.
If your theory of rejection rests on Bob Brandenburg's research (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/30_BettyHarmonic/30_Bettyharmonic.html), let me point out that 24.84 MhZ was not his only possibility, just the best odds. Recall that I have first-hand experience of a Radio 'Miracle' (https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,835.msg15647.html#msg15647) rarer than Betty's.
I appreciate your sharing with us so many fascinating stories of your experiences and if you could prove that they did 'splash' to instant death, that would be a more comfortable thought for sure. I just cannot just put this mystery to bed for the comfortable thought of a preferable ending.
I have great respect for the work that TIGHAR has done and their pile of clues definitely point to Gardner... I will keep an open mind on the subject and continue to read your well researched and knowledgeable postings and look at whatever Nauticos comes up with as well. I will even consider Malcom's New Britain theory, but that one really needs proof of its 'smoking-gun' for sure.
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Alright all of you radio experts, I have seen all kinds of charts and computations about why Betty could not have received AE's transmissions on 3105 or 6210kHz. I do not claim to know a lot about radios but I have a question. Since AE's transmitter could also transmit on 500kc and it was, after all, the maritime emergency frequency, what would have happened if she were sometimes transmitting on 500kc?
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It seems that almost everyone is in agreement that Betty was truthful - even if some of the facts don't add up. And some of the documentation is not correct. I stand by my "miracle" concept which easily fits no matter what. Anyway, Betty's notebook was just a little something added in support the ongoing TIGHAR investigation. Frankly, I don't see where this thread can go further. I apologize if anyone thought any of my comments unfounded or disrespectful.
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Montel, I would like to see an answer to my question above about transmitting on 500kc.
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Montel, I would like to see an answer to my question above about transmitting on 500kc.
It seems that Amelia didn't know morse code which was necessary to use 500KC
"Morse Code keys
The Electra was originally equipped with two Morse code keys. The evidence suggests that both were left behind. It seems that W.C. Tinus had one and Joe Gurr had the other.
Ric Gillespie, 25 March 1999 Forum.
500 kHz would only carry code and Earhart had [virtually] no knowledge of code and no key with which to send code"
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This topic is drifting by these remarks. This string is not about string vivisection or the character of individual posters, etc. Please use the PM feature in this forum to take that 'offline' between individuals if such discussions are desired.
Jeff,
Rest assured that this will be my last post on this string. But I do hope you will allow me to respond. I certainly hope you are not saying that my posts on this string have been about the character of individual posters. Clearly that is not true.
The purpose of my posts was to counter the suggestions made on this string that the Klencks were somehow being denigrated when clearly they have not been. It seems to me that worrying about a non-existent slight to the Klencks is where the drift in this string began. If remarks about supposed slights to the Klencks are an acceptable part of this thread then I don't see how asking for evidence of those alleged slights can be considered off topic.
Now, that said, I hope as you do that the thread will focus on the question of how likely it is that Betty would have had a radio capable of receiving distress signals from EA.
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Montel, I would like to see an answer to my question above about transmitting on 500kc.
C.W.
This may be the site that Montel referred to: (http://tighar.org/wiki/Frequency,_wavelength,_and_antenna_tuning)
500kc is in the 600 Meter Band and needs a very long antenna, which is what the 250' Trailing Wire (removed after ground loop) was used for.
While in Miami (just prior to her departure) Joe Gurr made some modifications (http://tighar.org/wiki/Dorsal_antenna) to the Electra's Radio so they could use the HF Antenna (long wire to the Tail Fins and back) for the LF Band 500kc.
500kc was a strictly Morse Code operation and I don't know if that would prevent voice transmissions, but it would have prevented Itaska from receiving voice (unless they had a BFO switch or something).
It was also reported here (AFAIK) that it was this modification that degraded her transmissions on the HF Band and was a cause of stronger than normal harmonics (harmonics are something that all transmitters are designed to suppress).
Art
Montel,
I just sent you a PM... sorry it has no subject (but it was the first one sent by me).
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Montel, I would like to see an answer to my question above about transmitting on 500kc.
It seems that Amelia didn't know morse code which was necessary to use 500KC
"Morse Code keys
The Electra was originally equipped with two Morse code keys. The evidence suggests that both were left behind. It seems that W.C. Tinus had one and Joe Gurr had the other.
Ric Gillespie, 25 March 1999 Forum.
500 kHz would only carry code and Earhart had [virtually] no knowledge of code and no key with which to send code"
I am aware that the two morse keys were removed from the Electra and that neither AE nor FN was competent with code. I am also aware that a crude form of code can be sent using the push to talk switch on the microphone. I am also aware that the dorsal antenna was not the best in the world for transmitting on any of the frequencies
These do not address my question. The shipboard transmitters were set up to use code on 500kHz and I assume there was something about their circuitry that would not allow voice on that frequency. The Western Electric 13C Transmitter, however, was designed to transmit voice. W.C. Tinus of Bell Telephone Laboratories, the radio engineer who was responsible for the design and installation AE's radio communications equipment at Newark Airport, New Jersey in February 1937 said"....modified a standard three-channel Western Electric equipment of the type then being used by the airlines to provide one channel at 500 kc and the other two at around 3000 and 6000kc...A simple modification also enabled transmission to be made on CW or MCW, as well as voice..." http://tighar.org/wiki/Radio_equipment_on_NR16020 (http://tighar.org/wiki/Radio_equipment_on_NR16020)
Since the W.E. 13C Transmitter was made for voice communications, it sounds like from what I am reading, it should have done that on 500 kc as well as 3105 and 6210 kHz. Or am I missing something here?
Thanks for your input Art, but we are not talking about whether Itaska could hear the Electra, but rather whether Betty could hear the Electra.
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Although it appears that they should have been able to transmit on 500 kc the question would be how strong the signal would be.
The Report for Post Loss (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/ResearchPapers/Brandenburg/PostLossSignals/PLSigStats.pdf) does not list Any receptions on 500 kc, but few operators would be expecting voice on that Band.
BTW here is Bob Brandenburg's Report on WE-13C Transmitter Harmonic Power Output (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/ResearchPapers/Brandenburg/WE-13.htm) if you have not seen it yet.
My recollection of LF was that sometimes it was loud and clear for over 1,000 NM and other times you might lose it in a procedure turn (five miles from the station).
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<...>
Since the W.E. 13C Transmitter was made for voice communications, it sounds like from what I am reading, it should have done that on 500 kc as well as 3105 and 6210 kHz. Or am I missing something here?
I suppose that in the desperate situation they were in they might of scrounged 1968' or 492' or 246' of copper wire from the Norwich City and strung it from their Dorsal Antenna up to the highest (insulated) point on the NC and started pounding on that mike key and talked every few minutes as well.
But then there were so many simple, obvious things that did not seem to get done...
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I was trying to be serious Art. ???
I never lost a LF, NDB, signal during any of the ADF, ILS or LOC approaches that I made.
And yes, "...there were so many simple, obvious things that did not seem to get done..." :(
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OK, so here is a question for you radio gurus.
In the diagram of Betty's antenna set up found here
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/30_BettyHarmonic/figure1.html (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/30_BettyHarmonic/figure1.html)
Her antenna passes under the utility lines that are set between the properties. I'm assuming this as it was at the top of a 15' pole, and I'm guessing the power lines were higher.
I'm not a radio guy, but I do know that sometimes power lines can amplify and distort signals. My experience with this comes from DFing ELT signals. We're taught to avoid power lines when DFing due to the false signal directions that can result. I've heard some really odd stories about ELT / practice beacon signals being heard way off from where they should have been received, carried long distances along power lines. If you really want a challenging training DF, put the beacon under the high tension wires.
What are the odds that this set up could / would affect the reception of short wave on the upper bands on Betty's radio?
This of course is pure speculation, but such phenomena are known to occur.
Andrew
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I also don't think that Ric was making anything up about Power Company 'giving' employees expensive radios, but I can see where they would have had an 'employee purchase' program with manufacturers of appliances, the $750 Stratosphere 1000 had a "distributor's price" of $270 (http://www.hlara.org/info/Special%20Christmas%20Edition%20Radiogram%202007.pdf) and the Power Company could get that price for its employees. Ric was replying to Eric's question about Betty having a Scott, which was the radio that killed the Stratospheric. (http://radiostratosphere.com/zsite/behind-the-dial/the-radio-war.html)
According to the this letter from the president of Zenith, Eugene McDonald (attached), the Stratospheres were snapped up by the Zenith distributors so it appears unlikely (at least to me) that there would have been any left over for a power company store.
Unlike what Gary wrote, there were other radios available with those 'ultra short wave' bands available selling for under $200. Zenith was just one quality brand and this is one of theirs @ $185 retail (http://www.oldradiozone.com/Z_15U269_ad.html) and Zenith's entire line of 15-tube models tuned 4 bands instead of the 3 offered in the 9 and 12-tube models. The additional “ultra” band, as signified by the “U” in the model number, also adds a fourth shutter to the dial. All of the 15-tube sets can tune from 540kc-44,870kc. (This "shutter" is why Gary thought that the Stratosphere in his video was the normal broadcast band only.)
The radio that you directed us to is a 'Shutter Dial" model and the "Shutter Dial" did not come out until 1938. See the video here at the 46 second mark (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V407eou5ZZM&feature=related)to see how it worked. Also you can see additional photos of the Zenith radios here. (http://www.radioblvd.com/ZenithPhoto.htm)
The $750.00 price for a 25 tube Stratosphere constitutes a very high portion of Mr. Klenck's annual pay. We now know that Mr. Klenck was a bookkeeper making $1,700 per year so that $750.00 is 44% of his annual salary. A new hire bookkeeper today starts at about $40,000 so a similar proportion of today's bookkeeper's pay would equal $17,650.00 and I doubt the a bookkeeper today would spend that kind of money for a hobby or entertainment appliance.
But, it turns out that there were actually three different models of the Stratosphere available during the 1935-1938 time period. Two of these models had only 16 tubes and had coverage limited to only 23,000 kcs, not high enough to hear Earhart on 24,840 kcs, almost 2,000 kcs higher than these radios tuned. Only the much more expensive 25 tube Stratosphere tuned high enough to hear Earhart. You can see the information on all three models of the Stratosphere here (http://www.oldradiozone.com/strat.html). Look at the pictures of each, they all have "alcoves" in their cabinets.
We also now know that he rented his previous residence for $15.00 a month making the $750.00 equal more than four year's worth of rent.
We have also recently found out that the Klencks bought their own house by 1940, less than three years later, they had been renting the 1937 house. This house cost $3,500.00 so the $750.00 price tag is the same as one-fifth the cost of their new house. I remember when I bought my house that I had to save for several years to get the down payment together and that meant no travel on vacations and no large expenditures on hobby equipment (Ma LaPook would have killed me) and I think that this is the common experience (at least it was prior to the last real estate bubble) so I believe it is reasonable to infer that Mr. Klenck would have faced the same financial pressures. If Mr. Klenck purchased a shortwave radio it makes a lot of sense that he would have purchased a less expensive and less capable model, one that didn't have coverage above that of the common shortwave radios, not above 18,000 kcs. See the attached excerpt from the January 1938 "Radio Index" which basically advises that there is no reason to spend additional money on a radio to get any higher frequency coverage since all the international shortwave bands are covered by the common shortwave radios. I know people who lived through the Depression and they all learned frugality which they still practice to this day, it was a hard lesson learned.
So what I have reasonably inferred from all of this evidence is:
1. That Mr. Klenck had some type of shortwave radio.
2. That it is extremely unlikely that he had a 25 tube Stratosphere.
3. That it is possible that he had a 16 tube Stratosphere.
4. That is is very unlikely that he had any other very expensive model that covered 24,840 kcs.
So that's my position. From reading your posts it appears that in your opinion, Betty mentioning an "alcove" trumps all other evidence to the contrary and has convinced you that she was listening to a 25 tube Stratosphere but you may want to re-evaluate your reliance on this because the 16 tube models also had "alcoves." So we each have reasons for our conclusions. Others can make up their own minds.
gl
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I'm no expert on shortwave radios or the propagation of radio waves, but I have first-hand experience with different classes of people and what they will spend their money on. I police in a suburb of Washington, DC, that has several areas of different economic classes. Some average to above average and some poverty/section 8. One of these less afluent areas contains an apartment complex which had a large number of low income units and was definately not a great place to live. Within this area, however, were a number of residents who chose to have high dollar cars while living basically in squalor. I'm talking about high-end Porsches, BMW's, and Jaguars. These were probably meant more as a status symbol (or owned by franchisees in the local drug trade) but could have simply been something that the owners always dreamed of having. If Betty's father really wanted an expensive radio, it is not inconceivable that he bought one while sacrificing other luxuries, like a bigger house. To each their own. For me, the question is, was there a radio available to Betty that could have received a signal from AE/FN, even if it took a miracle for that to happen? However unlikely, I think that it has been shown to have been possible, at least in theory. LTM. -John
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John, Thanks for bringing this up. I can remember, when I was a kid waaay back in the 1950s, that there were shacks in areas of the south that had TV antennas and a Caddy in the drive. We were middle class and barely knew what TV was. ???
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Although it appears that they should have been able to transmit on 500 kc the question would be how strong the signal would be. . .
I think Art's comments in this post are progress towards answering Woody's question. If we can model 500 kcs transmission with the WE-13C and Gurr's adjusted dorsal wire array we should get a sense of harmonic structure and amplitude.
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Thanks John, that's what I was hoping one of our radio experts would do.
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Gary,
Thank you for such an excellent post with such great links!
I also don't think that Ric was making anything up about Power Company 'giving' employees expensive radios, but I can see where they would have had an 'employee purchase' program with manufacturers of appliances, the $750 Stratosphere 1000 had a "distributor's price" of $270 (http://www.hlara.org/info/Special%20Christmas%20Edition%20Radiogram%202007.pdf) and the Power Company could get that price for its employees. Ric was replying to Eric's question about Betty having a Scott, which was the radio that killed the Stratospheric. (http://radiostratosphere.com/zsite/behind-the-dial/the-radio-war.html)
According to the this letter from the president of Zenith, Eugene McDonald (attached), the Stratospheres were snapped up by the Zenith distributors so it appears unlikely (at least to me) that there would have been any left over for a power company store.
Notice that McDonald says that performance was no better that the 11 or 12 tube sets.
Click on my link [a "distributor's price" of $270 (http://www.hlara.org/info/Special%20Christmas%20Edition%20Radiogram%202007.pdf)] from Reply #32 quoted above to open the pdf site that also contains that McDonald letter. I am also attaching an xps word file with ...the rest of the story (it starts at the next page from the letter in your pdf). On the first page (of the attachment), you can see that 73 out of those first 100 orders were canceled. Just above Lizzies promo photo on second page read "...March of 1935, EH Scott introduced... "Allwave 23" ... price ranged from $179.50 to 217.50 (this would have been my choice and the public agreed). Page four details reception problems on Ultra SW and that may be why after the first 100 sets, they reduced lowered USW from 63 MHz down to 45 MHz and then EH Scott hit them again.
On page six: the inventory of packed Stratospheres on hand in finished goods had climbed to an intolerable level
It had been my vision (even before reading the above); McDonald has his warehouse overstocked and not wanting to promote a 'Sale' on his flagship model, would be especially open to a 'quiet' deal with FPL for its employees. On page seven we see McDonald is really getting concerned with two strong letters just before Christmas of 1936 and I'm sure Jimmy Rasmussen would be happy to talk with FPL (http://www.fpl.com/about/history/dark_days_brighter_horizons_1930_1944.shtml#P12_60)
Unlike what Gary wrote, there were other radios available with those 'ultra short wave' bands available selling for under $200. Zenith was just one quality brand and this is one of theirs @ $185 retail (http://www.oldradiozone.com/Z_15U269_ad.html) and Zenith's entire line of 15-tube models tuned 4 bands instead of the 3 offered in the 9 and 12-tube models. The additional “ultra” band, as signified by the “U” in the model number, also adds a fourth shutter to the dial. All of the 15-tube sets can tune from 540kc-44,870kc. (This "shutter" is why Gary thought that the Stratosphere in his video was the normal broadcast band only.)
The radio that you directed us to is a 'Shutter Dial" model and the "Shutter Dial" did not come out until 1938. See the video here at the 46 second mark (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V407eou5ZZM&feature=related)to see how it worked. Also you can see additional photos of the Zenith radios here. (http://www.radioblvd.com/ZenithPhoto.htm)
Thank you for that video detailing the "Shutter Dial". I had mentioned it because I was sure that the Zenith in your video had short wave and did not know why it was not seen on the dial.
I had chosen the 1938 model (15U269) because Zenith usually had their coming 'year-model' available by mid-year. Your see additional photos of the Zenith radios here. has a better choice: 1937 Model 12-U-159
If you wanted Zenith's "top-of-the-line" (and couldn't afford the Stratosphere models), the 12-U-159 was it. At $175.00 for less money, 12-U-158 (http://www.tuberadioland.com/zenith12u158_main.html) listed at $149.95 and it also tunes up to 54mHz.
Ric posted: (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Forum/Forum_Archives/200011.txt)
- Betty says that her family was often the first in the neighborhood to have new electrical appliances.
I do agree with you that I might have had higher priorities over a fancy radio, to me the Big Deal with the strat' was the fancy cabinetry and superb High Fidelity, but then I would be shopping more for receiver performance, which was Scott all the way!
The $750.00 price for a 25 tube Stratosphere constitutes a very high portion of Mr. Klenck's annual pay. We now know that Mr. Klenck was a bookkeeper making $1,700 per year so that $750.00 is 44% of his annual salary. A new hire bookkeeper today starts at about $40,000 so a similar proportion of today's bookkeeper's pay would equal $17,650.00 and I doubt the a bookkeeper today would spend that kind of money for a hobby or entertainment appliance.
But, it turns out that there were actually three different models of the Stratosphere available during the 1935-1938 time period. Two of these models had only 16 tubes and had coverage limited to only 23,000 kcs, not high enough to hear Earhart on 24,840 kcs, almost 2,000 kcs higher than these radios tuned. Only the much more expensive 25 tube Stratosphere tuned high enough to hear Earhart. You can see the information on all three models of the Stratosphere here (http://www.oldradiozone.com/strat.html). Look at the pictures of each, they all have "alcoves" in their cabinets.
Yes, they match Betty's physical description and Betty (I'm sure) never mentioned a 10 meter band.... Also notice that they both have a "weather band" (that their big brother does not) covering 153kHz to 519kHz and C.W. Herndon happens to be researching if Earhart could have been heard on 500mHz...
We also now know that he rented his previous residence for $15.00 a month making the $750.00 equal more than four year's worth of rent.
We have also recently found out that the Klencks bought their own house by 1940, less than three years later, they had been renting the 1937 house. This house cost $3,500.00 so the $750.00 price tag is the same as one-fifth the cost of their new house. I remember when I bought my house that I had to save for several years to get the down payment together and that meant no travel on vacations and no large expenditures on hobby equipment (Ma LaPook would have killed me) and I think that this is the common experience (at least it was prior to the last real estate bubble) so I believe it is reasonable to infer that Mr. Klenck would have faced the same financial pressures. If Mr. Klenck purchased a shortwave radio it makes a lot of sense that he would have purchased a less expensive and less capable model, one that didn't have coverage above that of the common shortwave radios, not above 18,000 kcs. See the attached excerpt from the January 1938 "Radio Index" which basically advises that there is no reason to spend additional money on a radio to get any higher frequency coverage since all the international shortwave bands are covered by the common shortwave radios. I know people who lived through the Depression and they all learned frugality which they still practice to this day, it was a hard lesson learned.
So what I have reasonably inferred from all of this evidence is:
1. That Mr. Klenck had some type of shortwave radio.
2. That it is extremely unlikely that he had a 25 tube Stratosphere.
3. That it is possible that he had a 16 tube Stratosphere.
4. That is is very unlikely that he had any other very expensive model that covered 24,840 kcs.
So that's my position. From reading your posts it appears that in your opinion, Betty mentioning an "alcove" trumps all other evidence to the contrary and has convinced you that she was listening to a 25 tube Stratosphere but you may want to re-evaluate your reliance on this because the 16 tube models also had "alcoves." So we each have reasons for our conclusions. Others can make up their own minds.
gl
I know I could think of better choices for the Klenck family, but I don't want to comment on how they handled their finances.
In any case, I'm sure he would never had to pay anywhere near $750 for it. So the percentages you state would need adjusted.
If the TIGHAR Team just wanted to influence Betty's recollections to "what they wanted" they could have come up with a "more believable" choice than the Zenith Stratosphere 1000Z.
I don't know how critical that 10 meter band was and Radio Index was speaking of many more choices than just the Zenith line. Could check into other reasons for USW beyond just Foreign Broadcast listening.
I've not looked nearly deep enough to determine that there was not a Stromberg Carlson, RCA, Philco, Crosley or whatever that would fill Betty's description so I must keep an open mind on the subject.
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Good post Art. Looks like you have done lots of homework too. :)
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BTW here is Bob Brandenburg's Report on WE-13C Transmitter Harmonic Power Output (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/ResearchPapers/Brandenburg/WE-13.htm) if you have not seen it yet.
Art, you might also read my comments (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,418.msg6350.html#msg6350)on the subject paper. (If the significance of the comments are lost on you, let’s just say it’s bad. “Bad” wouldn’t be so bad if the paper’s content weren’t insinuated, in one way or another, into virtually every propagation-related paper by the same author.)
Chuck
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This string has become one of the most fascinating techno-socio-economic-motive seeking dialogues I have ever seen. I wish I had more confidence that we could 'prove' Betty could not have heard anything, it would be simpler.
Some may recall that upstring I shared experience from childhood regarding neighbors of modest means who had some very odd things in their home for those of modest means. Odd things happen in this odd world.
As I think about it, I'm not sure how to explain how my grandfather - a court recorder in his day - was able to buy my mother a very nice piano before he died in 1935. They lived in a respectable home and neighborhood, not entirely unlike Betty's. The depression was on. As a county (court circuit, actually) employee I doubt he made a lot of salary in Toombs County, GA.
Fascinating.
But remember, court reporters sell copies of their transcripts to the lawyers, that's where the real money is.
gl
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BTW here is Bob Brandenburg's Report on WE-13C Transmitter Harmonic Power Output (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/ResearchPapers/Brandenburg/WE-13.htm) if you have not seen it yet.
Art, you might also read my comments (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,418.msg6350.html#msg6350)on the subject paper. (If the significance of the comments are lost on you, let’s just say it’s bad. “Bad” wouldn’t be so bad if the paper’s content weren’t insinuated, in one way or another, into virtually every propagation-related paper by the same author.)
Chuck
Chuck, I appreciated your assessment of Mr. Brandenburg's WC-13C harmonic power output analysis - thank you for sharing. Not being a EE I am taking it on faith that your points on reduced transmitter power as well as reduced harmonic amplitude are correct. Several follow-on questions for you if I may - 1) are you able to correct Mr. B's model for harmonic attenuation/power ratios? 2) going back to Woody's question about 500 kc transmission, are you able to offer a calculation of WC-13C 500 kc harmonic amplitude? And this final question 3) falls into the category of education - I thought a fourier transform was used for calculating rate of change - is this correct? If so, how does a fourier transform help determine harmonic amplitude? (If you'd prefer not take the time on this one but can kindly provide a reference I will do my homework). Thanks very much, John
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At radiostratosphere.com, some good info. on the Z1000. A very fine looking and probably
a very highly acheiving radio. Pretty much top of the line. It matters little how her father obtained it.....really. His vacant lot antenna rig was potentially a 'sponge' for the HF signals, heard. As
another member speculated, proximity to nearby power lines 'could' also have enhanced
getting the 'miracle' reception. Many stranger things have happened and the earth's 3 'layers',
troposphere, stratosphere and ionosphere can produce surprising propagation. Let's also NOT forget Dana Randolph from Rock Springs, WY.
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Here is an interesting article/essay, published in a Tasmanian newspaper and archived on http://trove.nla.gov.au
The Examiner (Launceston, Tasmania,] Friday 9 July 1937, page 6.
US. RADIO OPERATORS MAY HAVE BEEN VICTIMS OF FORM OF HALLUCINATION
A feature of the reports of the search for the missing airwoman, Mrs. Amelia Earhart Putnam, which must have interested many readers is the large number of radio stations which claim to have heard signals from the missing aeroplane, so many, in fact, that though some may be authentic, some must almost undoubtedly be either deliberately false reports or else the result of a form of hallucination.
There are many thousands of amateur radio operators in the United States, many of them possessing up to-date and highly efficient equipment. The great majority of them are members of a well organized league, and all of them must possess a license from the Department of Commerce, which has power to punish them for spreading false news.
The fact, too, that through their league organization they have in the past rendered extremely valuable service at times of national disaster, such as the recent vast floods in the Mississippi, makes it appear extremely unlikely that on this occasion those who have reported hearing messages from Mrs. Putnam have deliberately tried to mislead the public and the search vessels.
Auto-Suggestion
A leading medical man in the city yesterday suggested that the real reason for these numerous incorrect reports was a form of mass hysteria or auto-suggestion, which may give rise to extraordinary hallucinations. It might even be, he suggested, a case of what psychologists call "wish fulfillment." So anxious were the operators to hear the signals from the plane that their sub-conscious minds affected their conscious minds to such an extent that they actually believed they heard the messages they were waiting for.
A leading text-book describes the effects of auto-suggestion as follows: -"In states of ecstasy or intense concentration of the attention upon some one ideal object, the object contemplated seems at times to take on sensory vividness, and so to acquire the character of an hallucination. In these cases the state of mind of the subject is probably similar in many respects to that of the deeply hypnotised subject, and these two classes of hallucination may be regarded as very closely allied."
Craving for Notoriety
Besides this possibility of unconscious deception, there is also the possibility that some of the operators had something in common with that numerous [???] of persons who, whenever a spectacular murder is committed, immediately begin pestering the police with confessions of the crime, despite the fact that they may have been many miles from where it occurred or were physically incapable of committing it.
These people deceive themselves into the belief that they have committed the crime because of a sub-conscious craving for notoriety, and in just the same way some of these radio operators may have deceived themselves into the belief that they heard signals from Mrs. Putnam, because of their desire for the publicity and local fame they would thus gain.
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<...>some of these radio operators may have deceived themselves into the belief that they heard signals from Mrs. Putnam, because of their desire for the publicity and local fame they would thus gain.
Some Reports were from 'Professional' Radio Operators (like the British Warship Achellies {?SP}), Naru {sp} Radio and PanAm HF/DF Stations, their reports carry the most value.
At least some amateurs (like the pair in California who ended up as front-page photo news) did report fabricated calls and they should have lost more than just their License for that cruel and harmful report...
The non Professional/Amateur Operators like Dana, Betty and some of the others like the ladies from Texas and Maine just add to the mix.
Betty especially, due to her keeping a contemporaneous Log of the event.
TIGHAR posted a research paper on post-loss radio messages and determined that many WERE not credible.
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At least one of those 'Ladies' later (much) reported that they had copied Lat/Lon and possibly other valuable information.
The non Professional/Amateur Operators like Dana, Betty and some of the others like the ladies from Texas and Maine just add to the mix.
This information was never published "...because (she said) President Roosevelt had requested not to divulge such information as it might be harmful to the castaways..." What a Missed opportunity.
I do know that it would have generated countless fabrications, but if there had been an immediate 'call-out' to report ANY Radio Message copied that might have come from the lost aviators, how different the outcome might have been...
There would have had to have been considerable 'vetting' of reports, but that could have been done.
If Only They Had Accepted that British Warship's offer of Assistance! She could likely have had her Float Planes launched and over-flying the Phoenix Islands in time for a successful rescue. :(
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Not being a EE I am taking it on faith that your points on reduced transmitter power as well as reduced harmonic amplitude are correct. Several follow-on questions for you if I may -
1) are you able to correct Mr. B's model for harmonic attenuation/power ratios?
If you’re asking whether I’ve done what I suggested that Bob do, and whether I have found what I suggested that he might find, the answer is yes.
2) going back to Woody's question about 500 kc transmission, are you able to offer a calculation of WC-13C 500 kc harmonic amplitude?
I can’t tell what the two of you are really asking, or why. If you want to elaborate, start with the why.
And this final question 3) falls into the category of education - I thought a fourier transform was used for calculating rate of change - is this correct?
No. A Fourier transform is used to decompose a time-dependent signal into an equivalent set of sinusoids; that is, to transform the signal’s representation from one that’s a function of time to one that’s a function of frequency.
. . .how does a fourier transform help determine harmonic amplitude? (If you'd prefer not take the time on this one but can kindly provide a reference I will do my homework).
I used The Scientist and Engineers Guide To Digital Signal Processing (http://www.dspguide.com/pdfbook.htm) as a reference. The opening words in Chapters 8-11, may give you a feel.
Chuck
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I can’t tell what the two of you are really asking, or why. If you want to elaborate, start with the why.
Chuck
The why is, I have not seen this addressed.
The question is, if AE broadcast some of her calls for help on 500 kHz would it be possible that Betty, and/or others in the U.S., could have heard it?
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The why is, I have not seen this addressed.
The question is, if AE broadcast some of her calls for help on 500 kHz would it be possible that Betty, and/or others in the U.S., could have heard it?
Assume that the 500 kHz plus CW modification made to AE’s transmitting equipment was like that later incorporated with the model 13CB transmitter. Transmitting on the 13CB’s 325 to 500 kHz band used a trailing wire antenna in conjunction with a loading coil external to the transmitter chassis. Remove them, as was done on AE’s Electra, and you lose the means to radiate power in that band. A signal not radiated is a signal not received.
Chuck
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And this final question 3) falls into the category of education - I thought a fourier transform was used for calculating rate of change - is this correct?
No. A Fourier transform is used to decompose a time-dependent signal into an equivalent set of sinusoids; that is, to transform the signal’s representation from one that’s a function of time to one that’s a function of frequency.
. . .how does a fourier transform help determine harmonic amplitude? (If you'd prefer not take the time on this one but can kindly provide a reference I will do my homework).
I used The Scientist and Engineers Guide To Digital Signal Processing (http://www.dspguide.com/pdfbook.htm) as a reference. The opening words in Chapters 8-11, may give you a feel.
Chuck
Chuck, thanks very much for your response and education on Fourier transform - sincerely appreciated. I did your recommended reading in Ch. 8 - 11 on discrete Fourier transform. I now have a feel for why you recommended to Mr. B. analyzing a single waveform using a discrete Fourier Transform as the analysis tool. Thanks for that! On a related note, I stopped by the company research library at lunch today and was able to lay my hands on a copy of "Radio Engineering Handbook", Keith Henney (ed.), 1935. Seeking a better grasp of the tools a practitioner like Gurr would have used for problem solving.
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The why is, I have not seen this addressed.
The question is, if AE broadcast some of her calls for help on 500 kHz would it be possible that Betty, and/or others in the U.S., could have heard it?
Assume that the 500 kHz plus CW modification made to AE’s transmitting equipment was like that later incorporated with the model 13CB transmitter. Transmitting on the 13CB’s 325 to 500 kHz band used a trailing wire antenna in conjunction with a loading coil external to the transmitter chassis. Remove them, as was done on AE’s Electra, and you lose the means to radiate power in that band. A signal not radiated is a signal not received.
Chuck
Chuck, understand your significant point that a "signal not radiated is a signal not received." However, really seeking your expertise here. The "why" of the 500 kc transmission question is the six pages of electro-socio-economic debate :) about whether Betty could have actually heard a post-loss transmission, the assumption being that the reception would have been a 4th harmonic of 6210 kc. And at that, as you point out, Mr. B's transmission model was extremely optimistic. Because receiving the 8th harmonic of 3105 kc is even more unlikely, it's worthwhile to analyze the probability that Betty (and Dana Randolph) received a 500 kc transmission, however remote.
Mike Everett's NR16020 radio analysis (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/ResearchPapers/ElectraRadios/ElectraRadios.htm) (and the primary source Gurr/Goerner interview (http://tighar.org/wiki/Modifications_by_Joe_Gurr)) indicate Gurr integrated a home-made loading coil into the -13C for 500kc operation. If you have a working transmitter/antenna/atmosphere model, would you please consider estimating Gurr's 500 kc loading coil "power ratio" (for lack of a better term) and analyze the probability of reception? Yes, we can assume it would be worse than harmonics of 6210 or 3105 kcs, but are we sure? Sincerely, John
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. . .Because receiving the 8th harmonic of 3105 kc is even more unlikely, it's worthwhile to analyze the probability that Betty (and Dana Randolph) received a 500 kc transmission, however remote.
John,
Worthwhile?
If you sense some reluctance on my part to pursue what I view to be a pointless exercise, then you’re right. I’ve seen no claim that AE had the capability to radiate a signal at 500 kHz when she departed on her second world flight, nor have I seen a claim that anybody heard a transmission from her on that frequency, or a harmonic of that frequency. Have you?
Mike Everett's NR16020 radio analysis (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/ResearchPapers/ElectraRadios/ElectraRadios.htm) (and the primary source Gurr/Goerner interview (http://tighar.org/wiki/Modifications_by_Joe_Gurr)) indicate Gurr integrated a home-made loading coil into the -13C for 500kc operation. If you have a working transmitter/antenna/atmosphere model, would you please consider estimating Gurr's 500 kc loading coil "power ratio" (for lack of a better term) and analyze the probability of reception? Yes, we can assume it would be worse than harmonics of 6210 or 3105 kcs, but are we sure?
Here’s a flavor of the problem Gurr faced if he tried to make do with the dorsal V antenna on 500 kHz. Under the conditions I used for estimating behavior at 3.105 and 6.21 MHz, the antenna at 500 kHz has a feedpoint impedance of 0.23 – j 3960 ohms and a radiation efficiency of 5.8%. (For comparison, I had 1.42 – j 476 ohms at 65% efficiency for 3.105 MHz, and 4.94 – j 27 ohms at 76% efficiency for 6.21 MHz.).
I introduced a loading coil in series with the antenna to get the net reactance closer to the value I had at 3.105 MHz. The last coil design I tried reduced the reactance by 3314 ohms, but introduced more than 4 ohms of additional loss. So the combined loading coil and antenna impedance was 4.3 - j 646 ohms, but had a radiation resistance of 5.8% of 0.23 ohms, or 0.013 ohms. That makes the radiation efficiency of the combined antenna and loading coil equal to 0.3%. If 1 watt is delivered to the combination, only 3 milliwatts is radiated. A new tuning coil design will be required, and it will introduce yet more loss, delivering even less power to the combination.
Hopefully you can see that significant effort is required to get an an output power number, and more work is required for each harmonic you want to explore.
I don’t have a propagation prediction program for medium frequencies. If one were to use an HF prediction program you’d need to be at the 5th harmonic of 500 kHz at a minimum, and preferably at the 6th harmonic. Don’t expect much. For example, at 3.105 MHz with a plate output power of 53 watts, the radiated power was 22 watts. The radiated power at the 5th harmonic was 6 microwatts.
Chuck
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Was the 'loading coil' also known to have been removed when they removed the trailing wire?
Jeff,
Well, "known" is a slippery word when applied to equipment aboard the Electra, but with AE's demonstrated penchant for weight saving I'd think that it went when the trailing wire antenna did.
Chuck
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. . .Because receiving the 8th harmonic of 3105 kc is even more unlikely, it's worthwhile to analyze the probability that Betty (and Dana Randolph) received a 500 kc transmission, however remote.
Hello Chuck V. 'Very interested in your radio info. I live on the MS. Gulf Coast and 'am "up"
in years but this A.E. search has fascinated me for the last 3 mos......so much so that when finances permit, I plan to purchase a 'decent' transceiver and spend what time I have remaining
communicating with folks. I've been reading a lot about her and radio and when I start, I want to do it 'right' the first time within my financial situation. Well, anyway, hello, again and let's hope
for some great video finds.
John,
Worthwhile?
If you sense some reluctance on my part to pursue what I view to be a pointless exercise, then you’re right. I’ve seen no claim that AE had the capability to radiate a signal at 500 kHz when she departed on her second world flight, nor have I seen a claim that anybody heard a transmission from her on that frequency, or a harmonic of that frequency. Have you?
Mike Everett's NR16020 radio analysis (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/ResearchPapers/ElectraRadios/ElectraRadios.htm) (and the primary source Gurr/Goerner interview (http://tighar.org/wiki/Modifications_by_Joe_Gurr)) indicate Gurr integrated a home-made loading coil into the -13C for 500kc operation. If you have a working transmitter/antenna/atmosphere model, would you please consider estimating Gurr's 500 kc loading coil "power ratio" (for lack of a better term) and analyze the probability of reception? Yes, we can assume it would be worse than harmonics of 6210 or 3105 kcs, but are we sure?
Here’s a flavor of the problem Gurr faced if he tried to make do with the dorsal V antenna on 500 kHz. Under the conditions I used for estimating behavior at 3.105 and 6.21 MHz, the antenna at 500 kHz has a feedpoint impedance of 0.23 – j 3960 ohms and a radiation efficiency of 5.8%. (For comparison, I had 1.42 – j 476 ohms at 65% efficiency for 3.105 MHz, and 4.94 – j 27 ohms at 76% efficiency for 6.21 MHz.).
I introduced a loading coil in series with the antenna to get the net reactance closer to the value I had at 3.105 MHz. The last coil design I tried reduced the reactance by 3314 ohms, but introduced more than 4 ohms of additional loss. So the combined loading coil and antenna impedance was 4.3 - j 646 ohms, but had a radiation resistance of 5.8% of 0.23 ohms, or 0.013 ohms. That makes the radiation efficiency of the combined antenna and loading coil equal to 0.3%. If 1 watt is delivered to the combination, only 3 milliwatts is radiated. A new tuning coil design will be required, and it will introduce yet more loss, delivering even less power to the combination.
Hopefully you can see that significant effort is required to get an an output power number, and more work is required for each harmonic you want to explore.
I don’t have a propagation prediction program for medium frequencies. If one were to use an HF prediction program you’d need to be at the 5th harmonic of 500 kHz at a minimum, and preferably at the 6th harmonic. Don’t expect much. For example, at 3.105 MHz with a plate output power of 53 watts, the radiated power was 22 watts. The radiated power at the 5th harmonic was 6 microwatts.
Chuck
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Was the 'loading coil' also known to have been removed when they removed the trailing wire?
Jeff,
Well, "known" is a slippery word when applied to equipment aboard the Electra, but with AE's demonstrated penchant for weight saving I'd think that it went when the trailing wire antenna did.
Chuck
Sorry Chuck - didn't mean to put you on the spot. Allow me to modify my question for clarity -
What information suggests that the coil was removed along with the trailing wire?
The coil would not have occurred to me as needing to be removed - why would it not just be left in place?
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Allow me to modify my question for clarity -
What information suggests that the coil was removed along with the trailing wire?
The coil would not have occurred to me as needing to be removed - why would it not just be left in place?
Jeff,
I guess you’re really asking why I wrote “. . .I’d think that it [the loading coil] went when the trailing wire antenna did.”
Be aware that I’m answering in accordance with an assumption I expressed in an earlier post (http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,883.msg17635.html#msg17635); namely, that the 500 kHz modification included elements that later appeared in the production 13CB transmitter. I have no documentation to prove the assumption.
The subject loading coil was external to the transmitter. It worked in conjunction with the trailing wire antenna and components internal to the transmitter when operating at 500 kHz. With the trailing wire antenna removed, the loading coil served no purpose. With no purpose, it was dead weight. Dead weight was anathema to AE.
Chuck
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. . .Because receiving the 8th harmonic of 3105 kc is even more unlikely, it's worthwhile to analyze the probability that Betty (and Dana Randolph) received a 500 kc transmission, however remote.
John,
Worthwhile?
If you sense some reluctance on my part to pursue what I view to be a pointless exercise, then you’re right. I’ve seen no claim that AE had the capability to radiate a signal at 500 kHz when she departed on her second world flight, nor have I seen a claim that anybody heard a transmission from her on that frequency, or a harmonic of that frequency. Have you?
Mike Everett's NR16020 radio analysis (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/ResearchPapers/ElectraRadios/ElectraRadios.htm) (and the primary source Gurr/Goerner interview (http://tighar.org/wiki/Modifications_by_Joe_Gurr)) indicate Gurr integrated a home-made loading coil into the -13C for 500kc operation. If you have a working transmitter/antenna/atmosphere model, would you please consider estimating Gurr's 500 kc loading coil "power ratio" (for lack of a better term) and analyze the probability of reception? Yes, we can assume it would be worse than harmonics of 6210 or 3105 kcs, but are we sure?
Here’s a flavor of the problem Gurr faced if he tried to make do with the dorsal V antenna on 500 kHz. Under the conditions I used for estimating behavior at 3.105 and 6.21 MHz, the antenna at 500 kHz has a feedpoint impedance of 0.23 – j 3960 ohms and a radiation efficiency of 5.8%. (For comparison, I had 1.42 – j 476 ohms at 65% efficiency for 3.105 MHz, and 4.94 – j 27 ohms at 76% efficiency for 6.21 MHz.).
I introduced a loading coil in series with the antenna to get the net reactance closer to the value I had at 3.105 MHz. The last coil design I tried reduced the reactance by 3314 ohms, but introduced more than 4 ohms of additional loss. So the combined loading coil and antenna impedance was 4.3 - j 646 ohms, but had a radiation resistance of 5.8% of 0.23 ohms, or 0.013 ohms. That makes the radiation efficiency of the combined antenna and loading coil equal to 0.3%. If 1 watt is delivered to the combination, only 3 milliwatts is radiated. A new tuning coil design will be required, and it will introduce yet more loss, delivering even less power to the combination.
Hopefully you can see that significant effort is required to get an an output power number, and more work is required for each harmonic you want to explore.
I don’t have a propagation prediction program for medium frequencies. If one were to use an HF prediction program you’d need to be at the 5th harmonic of 500 kHz at a minimum, and preferably at the 6th harmonic. Don’t expect much. For example, at 3.105 MHz with a plate output power of 53 watts, the radiated power was 22 watts. The radiated power at the 5th harmonic was 6 microwatts.
Chuck
Chuck, this is good analysis - proof that there is no substitute for expertise. Thanks for that. :) The six microwatts at 5th harmonic is DISMAL - I'm actually sorry I asked :-[
Re the propagation model, I picked up another reference from the company library today - "Radio Antenna Engineering" (Edmund Laport, RCA Labs, 1952). Excellent discussion of LF transmission as well as rules of thumb for ground and air propagation. One of Dr. Laport's rules of thumb is for operator discernment of morse or voice in different conditions (his Appendix VIII). He states a trained operator needs a minimum signal/noise ratio of about 15 dB to pick out voice. This is the main reason six microwatts is depressing - probability of reception is infinitesimaly small. Oh well.
Thanks again for your your analysis - sincerely appreciated.