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Author Topic: Speculating about Camp Zero  (Read 54863 times)

Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2012, 07:44:10 AM »

Here's a couple of videos
The first one is a small light aircraft 'landing' on the surf line. Notice how it behaves in the surf. The crowd managed to pull it up onto the beach, good work!!
The second one is a float plane landing onto water but, the pilot hasn't retracted the wheels, the wheels protruding were enough to flip the plane onto its back. Note: the Electra wheels were not fully retractable and protruded beneath the engines nacelles. So for a ditch and sink they would have to very very careful in the Electra.
IMHO

http://youtu.be/EWyUSdQ2ujY


http://youtu.be/pucmWr55cgw
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2012, 09:03:59 AM »

Good point about the overwash area on the coastline where the NC shipwreck is Jeff. We know from all our high tech gizmos that this area is subject to overwash and, you can see clearly from the sat' images that this is the case. Of course AE and FN wouldn't have known that but, it would still be a logical place to set up your initial camp. Close to the plane and obvious landmark of NC shipweck.
IMHO
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2012, 09:10:58 AM »

Andrew makes a great point about moving towards the 7 site---one from having experience on Niku. So, if I think abou this, Camp Zero makes alot of sense, and AFTER the failed overflight rescue, moving to another part of the island does too. Andrew's statement about the breezes, the food sources, etc, does make sense. I did have a problem with AE possibly moving that distance from the time of the 'landing', to the overflight on July 9. But in the post-overflight timeline, certainly does become more probable.
The statement also on the 'dead body' brings up some interesting things. Perhaps there is a grave on the northwest side of the island that is yet to be discovered, especially with the scaevola. As has been reported before, you might be within feet of something, and not see it.
IMHO---once TIGHAR finds wreckage of the electra on the reef, and 'proves' it was there, which also putsAE & FN there, then a more detailed archaeological  paln can be made, not only for the 7 sie, but possibly near camp zero also.
tom
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2012, 10:02:22 AM »

Another point of logic re: camp zero (if it existed)
Think about it, if you removed anything from the Electra i.e. tools/food/water/navigational aids/ etc... wouldn't it be logical to put the gear salvaged in a camp close to where you took said items from. Look at the logistical difficulties in humping all that gear 1.5 miles up the coast away from the plane and the obvious landmark of the NC shipwreck.
Maybe when there is little chance of rescue then you could find suitable site and then move everything there, if you felt up to it by then.

IMHO
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2012, 01:10:40 PM »

Good point jeff----but by then, was AE alone?
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2012, 04:00:48 PM »

Good point jeff----but by then, was AE alone?

Could very well have been Tom. Which leaves poor old FN to be buried in an area that is over-washed by the sea sometimes. Not such a nice resting place.
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2012, 07:00:45 PM »



I think that is a fair puzzle, for sure.

The reason you mention could become compelling, I suppose - I've wondered about that.  And I've wondered about other possibilities - eventual need to try to find water, a cooler spot with some shade and breeze perhaps - don't know, just ideas.

Yes Jeff - I mentioned in the first post that the accounts as late as the New Zealand expedition say that traces of the Arundel settlement were still extant. To me the corrugated iron if it was still there would make a first rate temporary shelter. Also there is the puzzle of what if anything was carried ashore from the Electra. No traces of that have been found aside from some speculation about the origins of a couple of very small items found at the Seven Site.

Andrew has pointed out that the Nutiran area of the island is hot and dry which may well be a reason for a move. But with respect is an assumption of a motive rather than an demonstrated explanation, and I wonder if I was on the island in those circumstances that is conjectured for Earhart and Noonan that I would be willing to leave a place where some material existed which would make a basically habitable camp for one in which there was no shelter other than the trees and scrub.

Also, as I understand it, Nutiran is the main area for the later cultivation of the coconut plantation on which Nikumaroro was to base its economic existence. This would have involved land clearing and other work yet we seem to be rather bereft of any reports of pre-settlement activity in that area, unlike the reports we have concerning the two areas on either side of the lagoon on the southern section of the atoll. Could this indicate that in the clearance and preparation for planting any signs of more recent occupation were confused with the Arundel site and simply ignored.
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2012, 07:50:00 PM »

I assume by camp Zero it is the first place they set up a camp and not just the first place they slept and maybe brought a few items. That may be perpendicular to the plane and in the shade.
If it is the first place they actually made a camp, then I think Camp Zero could be where they could hopefuly see the Itasca coming from the north and also see the planewreck, and also be in the shade. So maybe triangulate those three points. Basically the area where you round the tip enough to see the north, and still see the plane and also be in the shade.
 
2nd choice would be the Norwich City to get height to see and signal from.  A Coast Guardsmen in the 40's did board it, climb up it and described what he thought was an intact bridge he wanted to explore later. Though it was not the bridge(it was gone) I think he saw some structure intact.  Maybe it was camp zero. The NC had fish in the hold (see Bevington), and possibly decking forward of the collision bulkhead to divert rain water and provide shade. The crews rooms were in the area forward of the collision bulkhead and could have survived the fire, beds and all.
 
I understand they could not taxi to the shore but maybe they tried to taxi closer to the NC. If they were able, it could have been a shorter distance to travel back and forth on a slippery reef.
3971R
 
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 07:53:42 PM by Gregory Lee Daspit »
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2012, 09:25:30 AM »

Good point Malcolm, and Ive wondered about that for some time. All speculation, but moving a base camp would take some effort, especially to the 7 site, and the distance to travel, possibly alone.
Gee----seems to me that we are opening up a whole new area for our archaeological friends to explore.
Maybe those that have been there---Tom King, Lonnie, andrew, etc, could answer this: The overwash area---about how far inland do you think it goes, and the possibility that AE actually stayed there for a period of time? If i remember right, I think it was stated that this area hadnt been explored very much.
Thoughts?
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2012, 01:07:48 PM »

Another point of logic in favour of an initial site being in close proximity to plane and NC shipwreck. It would have been wise to take from the plane items that you might need, toolkit, axe, food, water, nav' equipment, clothing, useful kit etc...
kit an ex ships captain might select. I can't recall anything like that being found at the 7 site, a penknife in bits, a broken jar of freckle cream, a broken ladys compact?
Hardly survival items but still might give a hint of who was at the 7 site and, who wasn't. So where's the kit FN would have thought they needed from the plane?

Just a thought and, doesn't imply they actually made it to Gardner but, we will know soon enough.
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2012, 10:28:27 PM »

Also ANYONE KNOW THE EXACT LOCATION OF THE ARUNDEL BUILDING???? sorry for shouting  :)

No need to apologize - that question has also been bedeviling me. We do know that the settlement was abandoned because of potable water problems, but then so eventually was the settlement of the PISS settlers at Ritiati. The island is borderline inhabitable at the best of times. I am assuming that the Arundel settlement area was searched during Niku IIIIP in 1999, but I can understand that the subsequent clearing for the PISS plantation would have disturbed much of anything that remained.

One thing I note is that corrugated iron can survive in a usable form for many years. Recently I added an extra annex to one of my sheds to store some gardening stuff and used sheets of ungalvanized corrugated iron that was 70 years old, and had always been stored outside (I never throw out useful stuff  ;D ) It was a bit rusty but otherwise serviceable and a quick brush down with a wire brush and a quick coat of paint and it was fine. I note on this site pics of the ruined structure at the PISS village site where there is corrugated iron that would be about 30 years old or more. The Arundel material would only have been around 45 years old in 1937 so I would conjecture that if Earhart or Noonan had landed on the island and were looking for shelter then that would be the place to head for. It would have at the least provided better shade than the trees.     
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Andrew M McKenna

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2012, 01:52:18 AM »

Malcolm

Out of curiosity, how big are your sheets of corrugated iron, and how much does one weigh?  How easy was it to lift and install on your shed?

I'm trying to find out where the Arundel buildings were located.  Unfortunately, when they were there in 1999, I don't think they had hand held GPSs like we did later on.

amck
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2012, 07:55:40 AM »

This debate reminds me of the aircrash in the Andes mountains in 1972. The survivors remained with the wreckage for shelter from the weather throughout their 2 month ordeal. However, when it became obvious no rescue was likely, 2 of them went in search of civilisation.
Initial camp <_________> no rescue likely <________> off you go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguayan_Air_Force_Flight_571#Radio
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richie conroy

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2012, 02:34:40 PM »

This debate reminds me of the aircrash in the Andes mountains in 1972. The survivors remained with the wreckage for shelter from the weather throughout their 2 month ordeal. However, when it became obvious no rescue was likely, 2 of them went in search of civilisation.
Initial camp <_________> no rescue likely <________> off you go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguayan_Air_Force_Flight_571#Radio

is ths what the film Alive was based on ?
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richie conroy

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Re: Speculating about Camp Zero
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2012, 02:40:54 PM »

sorry as i read down i seen paragraph on film Alive d'oh  :)
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